Fragility of Religious Layering

[cloudyday2]

In the Abrahamic religions, each new revelation layers itself on the old revelations.
Judaism -> Christianity -> Islam -> Baha'i

New religions always borrow ideas and stories from preexisting religions, but the Abrahamic religions claim that the earlier revelations were divinely inspired. Each new layer depends on the solidity of the previous layer or it falls like a house of cards.

Of course, each new revelation redefines the revelations in the previous layers, but they are still there in a modified form. The new religions are the most fragile. An attack on Moses is an attack on Jesus and Muhammad and Baha'ullah. The atheist kills four birds with one stone.

Any opinions?

 

[LoAmmi]

An attack on Moses isn't even a good attack on Judaism, so the premise seems flawed.

 

[cloudyday2]

An attack on Moses isn't even a good attack on Judaism, so the premise seems flawed.

Modern Judaism allows atheists, so it is probably indestructible. Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i derive from their own interpretations of Judaism that are different and more fragile IMO. If an atheist can show that Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'ullah had been wrong about the history or nature of Judaism that they built upon, then I think it is something. I wouldn't expect a prophet to know the Earth revolves around the Sun, but I would expect a prophet to know the truth about earlier revelations.

 

[LoAmmi]

Modern Judaism allows atheists, so it is probably indestructible. Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i derive from their own interpretations of Judaism that are different and more fragile IMO. If an atheist can show that Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'i had been wrong about the history or nature of Judaism that they built upon, then I think it is something.

Saying modern Judaism allows atheists isn't entirely accurate. In order to keep the 613 commandments, one must believe in HaShem. That's to be an Orthodox Jew. No Orthodox Jewish rabbi would say a Jew should be an atheist. They would say a Jew being an atheist if preferable to them following another faith.

The Reform movement allows leeway on this, but my opinion of them is that they are keeping the culture going but not keeping the religion going. However, all the prayers are to HaShem even in a Reform synagogue. We certainly don't encourage atheism nor would even a Reform rabbi speaks about how great atheism is from the bimah.

 

[LoAmmi]

Let me point out the flaw in your logic.

Is Moses the most important in Judaism? Yes or no?

 

[cloudyday2]

Let me point out the flaw in your logic.

Is Moses the most important in Judaism? Yes or no?

Yes, I think Moses is the most important character in the OT (aside from God of course).

Following those 613 commandments is critical apparently, but why should anybody follow them? Some might follow because it's their family heritage. Some might follow because they believe the commandments are wise. Some might follow because they believe the commandments are divinely inspired.

In the case of Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha'ullah, each of them seemed to accept the religious history they inherited. I believe Jesus mentions Noah, Abraham, and Moses. If an atheist can show that Judaism evolved in a messy fashion instead of being divinely inspired, then it weakens the claims of Jesus, Muhammad, Baha'ullah, etc. Those guys should have known the true history of Judaism instead of the myths IMO.

 

[danny ski]

I don't see any revelation above one I recognize. I don't see this layering, either. Christianity does not recognize our revelation nor do we recognize theirs. Both religions cannot be right- based on the same text.

 

[LoAmmi]

Yes, I think Moses is the most important character in the OT (aside from God of course).

I didn't ask for characters in the Tanakh. I said the most important in Judaism. Your second one, there, HaShem is the correct answer. We don't even mention Moses during Passover.

Following those 613 commandments is critical apparently, but why should anybody follow them? Some might follow because it's their family heritage. Some might follow because they believe the commandments are wise. Some might follow because they believe the commandments are divinely inspired.

That's pretty simple:
Exodus 6:7
I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians.

I will point out that we believe only Jews should follow these commandments, not anybody else.

In the case of Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha'ullah, each of them seemed to accept the religious history they inherited. I believe Jesus mentions Noah, Abraham, and Moses. If an atheist can show that Judaism evolved in a messy fashion instead of being divinely inspired, then it weakens the claims of Jesus, Muhammad, Baha'ullah, etc. Those guys should have known the true history of Judaism instead of the myths IMO.

Even if it came to be in a messy fashion, that doesn't mean it wasn't divinely inspired. A slow build doesn't mean it wasn't HaShem's doing.

As I've said before, the fact that we're still here after so many tried to destroy us is more than mere chance in my eyes. But even if you pull the rug out from under Moses, I don't think that destroys any of the religions. At all.

 

[cloudyday2]

I don't see any revelation above one I recognize. I don't see this layering, either. Christianity does not recognize our revelation nor do we recognize theirs. Both religions cannot be right- based on the same text.

IDK, I think Christianity recognizes the Torah. Marcionism wanted to make a clean break from Judaism, but Marcionism was rejected as a heresy. Christians, Muslims, and apparently Baha'i all believe that God gave the Israelites the Torah (I think). In the time of Jesus, neither Christianity nor Rabbinical Judaism existed. Both those religions evolved and diverged from the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Therapeutae, Gnostics, etc. That's my understanding.

 

[LoAmmi]

IDK, I think Christianity recognizes the Torah. Marcionism wanted to make a clean break from Judaism, but Marcionism was rejected as a heresy. Christians, Muslims, and apparently Baha'i all believe that God gave the Israelites the Torah (I think). In the time of Jesus, neither Christianity nor Rabbinical Judaism existed. Both those religions evolved and diverged from the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Therapeutae, Gnostics, etc. That's my understanding.

No, we are the descendants of the Pharisees. In terms of Judaism, only the Pharisees were left standing after the Temple's destruction in 70 CE.

 

[cloudyday2]

Even if it came to be in a messy fashion, that doesn't mean it wasn't divinely inspired. A slow build doesn't mean it wasn't HaShem's doing.

As I've said before, the fact that we're still here after so many tried to destroy us is more than mere chance in my eyes. But even if you pull the rug out from under Moses, I don't think that destroys any of the religions. At all.

Hmmm. The approach made sense to me, but maybe you're right.

 

[danny ski]

IDK, I think Christianity recognizes the Torah. Marcionism wanted to make a clean break from Judaism, but Marcionism was rejected as a heresy. Christians, Muslims, and apparently Baha'i all believe that God gave the Israelites the Torah (I think). In the time of Jesus, neither Christianity nor Rabbinical Judaism existed. Both those religions evolved and diverged from the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Therapeutae, Gnostics, etc. That's my understanding.

There's a reason why Christians call our scripture the Old Testament. They also think they have a New Covenant.

 

[ChetSinger]

There's a reason why Christians call our scripture the Old Testament. They also think they have a New Covenant.

Hello! We do accept the entire Hebrew Bible as true and as inspired by God.

OTOH, Muslims are taught that the Hebrew and Christians scriptures have been corrupted and cannot be trusted.

 

[Arthra]

New religions always borrow ideas and stories from preexisting religions, but the Abrahamic religions claim that the earlier revelations were divinely inspired. Each new layer depends on the solidity of the previous layer or it falls like a house of cards.

Of course, each new revelation redefines the revelations in the previous layers, but they are still there in a modified form. The new religions are the most fragile.

Baha'is have a concept called Progressive Revelation..meaning that God reveals Himself through His Messengers and Prophets from time to time.. The spiritual truths are basically unchanged while the social teachings are suited to the context of the age in which they're revealed progressively.

I wouldn't agree that the "new religions are the most fragile".. They are more recent and in terms of social teachings more relevant.

There's also the revelation itself..that is, how these revelations appear and in the later revelations they tend to be more direct and less likely to be affected by mere hearsay or verbal tradition as in the case with earlier revelations.

 

[ChetSinger]

Modern Judaism allows atheists, so it is probably indestructible. Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i derive from their own interpretations of Judaism that are different and more fragile IMO. If an atheist can show that Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'ullah had been wrong about the history or nature of Judaism that they built upon, then I think it is something. I wouldn't expect a prophet to know the Earth revolves around the Sun, but I would expect a prophet to know the truth about earlier revelations.

Hmm, the first Christians were observant Jews of the 2nd Temple Period and Christianity originated with the beliefs of those times. So I don't know how one would succeed in showing that Jesus was "wrong about the history or nature of Judaism". He, and his first followers, lived in the middle of it.

 

[seashale76]

Saying modern Judaism allows atheists isn't entirely accurate. In order to keep the 613 commandments, one must believe in HaShem. That's to be an Orthodox Jew. No Orthodox Jewish rabbi would say a Jew should be an atheist. They would say a Jew being an atheist if preferable to them following another faith.

The Reform movement allows leeway on this, but my opinion of them is that they are keeping the culture going but not keeping the religion going. However, all the prayers are to HaShem even in a Reform synagogue. We certainly don't encourage atheism nor would even a Reform rabbi speaks about how great atheism is from the bimah.

I have a Ukrainian friend that is an atheist from a jewish family. Her husband is Jewish too (I always got the impression he believed in God- but he wasn't observant either). Anyway, she about had a coronary when her daughter decided to go to Israel with a Reform group. She was convinced her daughter was going to come back religious and it worried her.

 

[LoAmmi]

I have a Ukrainian friend that is an atheist from a jewish family. Her husband is Jewish too (I always got the impression he believed in God- but he wasn't observant either). Anyway, she about had a coronary when her daughter decided to go to Israel with a Reform group. She was convinced her daughter was going to come back religious and it worried her.

I know at least one person who went to Israel on a birth right trip and then made aliyah. Became an Orthodox Jew afterwards. Said something about being on the land and seeing everything changed him. Was interesting.

 

[Poor Beggar]

In the Abrahamic religions, each new revelation layers itself on the old revelations.
Judaism -> Christianity -> Islam -> Baha'i

New religions always borrow ideas and stories from preexisting religions, but the Abrahamic religions claim that the earlier revelations were divinely inspired. Each new layer depends on the solidity of the previous layer or it falls like a house of cards.

Of course, each new revelation redefines the revelations in the previous layers, but they are still there in a modified form. The new religions are the most fragile. An attack on Moses is an attack on Jesus and Muhammad and Baha'ullah. The atheist kills four birds with one stone.

Any opinions?

The Hebrew prophets discussed a coming Messiah and Isaiah gave enough detail to confirm a new covenant as well. So Christianity coming out of Judaism isn't a surprise. Now, Jews may not agree that Christianity IS that covenant, but the existence of Christianity doesn't surprise Jews. Make sense? However, in the Jewish prophets' writings we see that after this Messiah and his kingdom there will be no other and in the Christian New Testament (Covenant) writings we see the clear statements that this is the end of divine revelation.
So...Islam and Baha'i only make sense if they are the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies rather than Christianity. It wouldn't make sense to build them as an addition to Christianity. When this is done it is fairly easy to refute by those knowledgeable in the writings. However, as we all know, if a person is committed to a way of thinking it's probably a done deal.

 

[Poor Beggar]

IDK, I think Christianity recognizes the Torah.

See, these are the sorts of things you'll want to firmly understand before theorizing about the progression of revelation. I don't mean that accusatorily, but simply as a reality.

 

[Poor Beggar]

Yeah, and then they quote from them. It's odd.

Hello! We do accept the entire Hebrew Bible as true and as inspired by God.

OTOH, Muslims are taught that the Hebrew and Christians scriptures have been corrupted and cannot be trusted.