Forcing the Chruch to accept homosexuality..

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Phinehas2

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Lighthorseman,
Against it, if it were happening. But no one is trying to "force" the church to do anything, so the question is pretty baseless.
Soulforce for example shows that at least someone is trying to force the church to accept this paganism called homosexuality, so your statement is 100% wrong.

Calling another’s argument baseless is the pot calling the kettle black

Here is the basis. please provide some OT and NT scripture countenancing homosexuality or please refrain from promoting the paganism of homosexuality.

God’s creation purpose for man and woman
Gen 2 – “23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, '
for she was taken out of man."
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
Matt 19 “4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh']?
Mark 10 “"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'[a] 7'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.'[c] So they are no longer two, but one”
Eph 5 “31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.”
1 Cor 7 “It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. “

God’s condemnation of homosexuality
Gen 19 “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
Leviticus 18 “22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "
Leviticus 20 “13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.”
1 Corinthians 6
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Romans 1- “26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion


One of the warnings to believers.
Jude 1 “3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.


 
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Phinehas2

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Hairy Tic,
Sorry, but they exist. If the Churches can't face up to such realities, there is something wrong.
Sorry but they exist in the world, its paganism, but in reality and in God’s eyes they don’t. God wishes that none should perish but all come to repentance. There is no place for the paganism you are professing in the church.


So far, agreed on all points.
no you aren’t. If you were you agree with Christ’s NT teaching on faithful man/woman marriage and the error of same sex relationships.


And plenty of Christian gays, Protestant, Orthodox & Catholic, try to "agree with and seek to do what He teaches",just as other Christians do.
Nope, I was refer to Christ’s teaching not some confused people who don’t follow Christ’s teaching.


As for Romans 8, if a Christian is in Christ before discovering he is homosexual, he is in Christ during the discovery, and after it.
Nope, if a Christian he knows his identity in Christ and not homosexuality. The scripture says our old sinful lives in Christ are dead and a new creation alive in the Spirit.


Otherwise, St.Paul's words mean nothing. They become a cruel joke.
They can only be a cruel joke to those who aren’t in Christ. In Christ the joy is complete and the truth sets people free. Homosexuality is paganism.


I've given a great deal of thought to Gen.19 - FWIW, I don't see any persuasive reason to treat it as condemning modern homosexuality.
Then you don’t believe what it says.

I don't know Hebrew BTW, but I can see how one passage can be related to another - knowledge of Hebrew is not required to see that different authors make different use of the Sodom passage. FWIW, Gen. 19 echoes the Flood narrative, which is fascinating to know.
If you don’t know Hebrew I don’t see how you can doubt the accuracy of the scripture translated by experts in Hebrew. Is it that you feel homosexuality is more important to you than what God says?


FWIW, the quotation from Jude says nothing about homosexuality, & does not say how Jude would deal with gay Christians. So Christians on different sides of the argument have to deal w/ that as best they can.
Of course it does it refers to men wanting sex with men which was pronounced wicked. That’s the sexual immorality at Sodom and Lot, Jude is referring to. Besides I don’t really care about your disbelief of scripture, the scripture is the truth.



 
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Phinehas2

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Lighthorseman,
I don't know what "soulforce" is, but I bet dollars to donughts they aren't "forcing" anyone to do anything.
well the link was given, I suggest you take a look.

Deliberate missuse of clearly defined words for cheap appeal to emotion makes baby Jesus cry.
Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in Glory, to whom are you referring if not God?
 
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OllieFranz

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Lighthorseman,
well the link was given, I suggest you take a look.

Actually, there was no link in that post. However, here is a link to SoulForce's website.

Their mission is use nonviolent resistance in an effort to end the oppression of the LGBT. Their most controversial activity is their Equality Ride, in which a busload of young college-age members visit various Bible Colleges and Christian Universities. While there they try to encourage some of the students to study the Scriptures for themselves rather than rely strictly on the pre-digested pablum many of these schools teach their students.

Nothing about force. Yes, they hope and pray that a new generation of ministers of the Gospel will be more accepting pf LGBT people than the current generation, but that is a far cry from accepting sin.
 
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LightHorseman

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Actually, there was no link in that post. However, here is a link to SoulForce's website.

Their mission is use nonviolent resistance in an effort to end the oppression of the LGBT. Their most controversial activity is their Equality Ride, in which a busload of young college-age members visit various Bible Colleges and Christian Universities. While there they try to encourage some of the students to study the Scriptures for themselves rather than rely strictly on the pre-digested pablum many of these schools teach their students.

Nothing about force. Yes, they hope and pray that a new generation of ministers of the Gospel will be more accepting pf LGBT people than the current generation, but that is a far cry from accepting sin.
So... NOT... forcing churches to accept Christianity? Shocking.
 
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ElizabethHelen

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I just want to state one thing.



I am christian AND PROUD!

But i am also BISEXUAL and PROUD!

I can have both in my life at the same time. I feel God always and he does NOT judge me for my sexuality. (Either that it's because I'm more swinging towards men, however, that point is invalid)
 
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Phinehas2

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But i am also BISEXUAL and PROUD!

I can have both in my life at the same time. I feel God always and he does NOT judge me for my sexuality. (Either that it's because I'm more swinging towards men, however, that point is invalid)
You see anyone can say anything, a member of the Westboro chuch could come here and say they are proud to hate homosexuals. Neither claims however are in line with Christ's NT teaching despite people claiming them.
Christianity is based on Christ and God's Biblical testimony. It is not based on human reasoning against God's testimony.
Homosexuality is paganism.
 
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KCKID

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I just want to state one thing.

I am christian AND PROUD!

Good.

But i am also BISEXUAL and PROUD!

I have blue eyes and I guess I'm kinda proud of them.

I can have both in my life at the same time.

Of course, the same with being a Christian and having blue eyes.

I feel God always and he does NOT judge me for my sexuality.

Precisely ...nor does God judge anyone for their eye color.

While (some) others have made a major issue out of homosexuality I personally equate one's sexuality with eye color. It's really a non-issue . . .:)
 
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Phinehas2

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KCKID,
Again though, thats just your opinion, Its contrary to the word of God, and wont save anyone. I dont believe your views, I believe God's

God’s creation purpose for man and woman
Gen 2 – “23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, '
for she was taken out of man."
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
Matt 19 “4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh']?
Mark 10 “"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'[a] 7'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.'[c] So they are no longer two, but one”
Eph 5 “31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.”
1 Cor 7 “It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. “

God’s condemnation of homosexuality
Gen 19 “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
Leviticus 18 “22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "
Leviticus 20 “13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.”
1 Corinthians 6
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Romans 1- “26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion


One of the warnings to believers.
Jude 1 “3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
 
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Zaac

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I just want to state one thing.



I am christian AND PROUD!

But i am also BISEXUAL and PROUD!

I can have both in my life at the same time.

Why a Christian would even fix their mouths to say such a thing is beyond me. It takes me right back to James 3:14-16 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

And herein lies the problem. People start thinking that God is just some accessory to add to the rest of their sinful lives. This is not like Burger King. You don't get to have it your way.

That's the devil's wisdom through and through and a clear display of why these sexual desires have been given the place of idols in so many lives.

This is a clear display of I can do whatever I want and have God too.

The only problem with that is that GOD DISAGREES. Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other...

It's God's way or HELL.

I feel God always and he does NOT judge me for my sexuality. (Either that it's because I'm more swinging towards men, however, that point is invalid)

How would a person even know if he is feeling God and not just indigestion if he is ignoring what God'sword says and PROUDLY submitting himself to sexual sin?:confused:
 
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Zaac

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While (some) others have made a major issue out of homosexuality I personally equate one's sexuality with eye color. It's really a non-issue . . .:)[/COLOR]


God hasn't said that sexuality or eye color is a sin. But He certainly makes known that ALL homosexual sex is a sin. It really is an issue with God just like all sin is.
 
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Archivist

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God hasn't said that sexuality or eye color is a sin. But He certainly makes known that ALL homosexual sex is a sin. It really is an issue with God just like all sin is.

But whether homosexuality is or is not a sin is not the topic of this thread.

The topic of this thread is "forcing the church to accept homosexuality."

I am still waiting to see any evidence showing that anyone in the mainstream is working to force the church to accept homosexuality.

The people who I know who favor allowing homosexual marriage are speaking in terms of civil marriage; none of them are in any way trying to force churches to perform religious marriage ceremonies against church policy.

Several pages ago I posted a summary of major polls involving gay rights issues. Not one of them dealt with forcing the church to accept homosexuality. Instead they all dealt with legal marraige, legal/U] benefits, civil rights.

I again ask, if anyone has any evidence to show mainstream efforts to force the church to accept homosexuality, please offer it.
 
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Zaac

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But whether homosexuality is or is not a sin is not the topic of this thread.

I know. Iwas just responding to the point that was put forth.

The topic of this thread is "forcing the church to accept homosexuality."

I am still waiting to see any evidence showing that anyone in the mainstream is working to force the church to accept homosexuality.

California.

The people who I know who favor allowing homosexual marriage are speaking in terms of civil marriage; none of them are in any way trying to force churches to perform religious marriage ceremonies against church policy.

I undesrtand what you're saying. But understand that marriage between a man and a woman was established by GOD at the beginning of Christian history. It is exampled from the start to the finish of God's word so much so that Christ is called the BrideGroom and the Church, His Bride.

So any tinkering with marriage should be an offense to followers of Christ.

May I ask why do you all think we have yet to see a society in 6000 years that has pushed for marriage to be changed from man and woman to man/man or woman/woman?


I again ask, if anyone has any evidence to show mainstream efforts to force the church to accept homosexuality, please offer it.

YES. By pushing a national agenda of homosexual marriage, it is a de facto push to make the church accept homosexuality and homosexual marriage.

Homosexuals say it isn't. Anybody who steps back and looks at it and who knows with Whom marriage was established knows that it is a push to make everyone accept a new idea of marriage based in a moral decay of society unlike perhaps any in the history of man.
 
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nChrist

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Add the attempted forced indoctrination of our children in school against the will of all Christian parents. They want the entire society, and that certainly includes churches. The answer is NO!

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
 
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Zaac

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Add the attempted forced indoctrination of our children in school against the will of all Christian parents. They want the entire society, and that certainly includes churches. The answer is NO!

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Now let the Church say AMEN!!!:clap::clap::clap:
 
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Archivist

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I know. Iwas just responding to the point that was put forth.

Thank you for trying to stay on point. Many in this thread have strayed far from the actual topic.

California.

No, because the current controversy in California involves civil marriage, not religious marriage.

I know that there are various religious groups out there that are ready to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies should the appellate courts declare homosexual marriage to be legal (it is California after all, the land of fruits and nuts;)). However, those groups would be performing such ceremonies of their own accord, not because they are being forced to do so.

I undesrtand what you're saying. But understand that marriage between a man and a woman was established by GOD at the beginning of Christian history. It is exampled from the start to the finish of God's word so much so that Christ is called the BrideGroom and the Church, His Bride.

And I agree that no religious institution should ever for forced to perform a marriage ceremony that would be in opposition to the tenents of that institution's faith. However, the mainstream view is for the legalization of civil marriage for homosexuals. As I've said before, I don't think that any but the most extreme backers of homosexual marriage would support forcing churches to perform such ceremonies.

So any tinkering with marriage should be an offense to followers of Christ.

And, again, I would oppose any effort to force any relligious institution--Christian or otherwsie--to perform such a ceremony.

May I ask why do you all think we have yet to see a society in 6000 years that has pushed for marriage to be changed from man and woman to man/man or woman/woman?

Perhaps because until recently we were not dealing with issues such as hospital visitation, pension benefits, tax implications, etc.

YES. By pushing a national agenda of homosexual marriage, it is a de facto push to make the church accept homosexuality and homosexual marriage.

There is where we disagree, becasue everything that I have seen shows that this is an effort only to gain legal recognition of same-sex civil marriages. I have seen no evidence of any mainstream effort to require churches to perform such ceremonies.

Homosexuals say it isn't. Anybody who steps back and looks at it and who knows with Whom marriage was established knows that it is a push to make everyone accept a new idea of marriage based in a moral decay of society unlike perhaps any in the history of man.

Again, thsi is where we have to disagree, because I don't see any evidence to support what you are saying. As I said, I would oppose any such effort to force churches to act in such a way.
 
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vl32

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Thank you for trying to stay on point. Many in this thread have strayed far from the actual topic.



No, because the current controversy in California involves civil marriage, not religious marriage.

I know that there are various religious groups out there that are ready to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies should the appellate courts declare homosexual marriage to be legal (it is California after all, the land of fruits and nuts;)). However, those groups would be performing such ceremonies of their own accord, not because they are being forced to do so.



And I agree that no religious institution should ever for forced to perform a marriage ceremony that would be in opposition to the tenents of that institution's faith. However, the mainstream view is for the legalization of civil marriage for homosexuals. As I've said before, I don't think that any but the most extreme backers of homosexual marriage would support forcing churches to perform such ceremonies.



And, again, I would oppose any effort to force any relligious institution--Christian or otherwsie--to perform such a ceremony.



Perhaps because until recently we were not dealing with issues such as hospital visitation, pension benefits, tax implications, etc.



There is where we disagree, becasue everything that I have seen shows that this is an effort only to gain legal recognition of same-sex civil marriages. I have seen no evidence of any mainstream effort to require churches to perform such ceremonies.



Again, thsi is where we have to disagree, because I don't see any evidence to support what you are saying. As I said, I would oppose any such effort to force churches to act in such a way.

However, there have always been gays in church, though repentance was preached in the churches I've attended.

Now, if a LBGT couple gets "married" even though you say 'civilly', will some churches or any churches' hierarchy just kick them out because they got civilly married?

I don't see how that would work as heterosexuals get civilly married, also.

So what to do? And, what do you think will happen?

Asking in humbleness and kindness for an answer from the 'church'.
 
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