For those who argue for the omnibenevolence of God…

[sawdust]

It was punishment, not discipline. This is the cursing He promised to bring on His people for being obedient.

Call it what you will, they were warned of the consequences but that didn't answer my question. Do you think God was wrong in His treatment?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So the Lord said to me, “Do not pray for the welfare of this people. When they fast, I am not going to listen to their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I am not going to accept them. Rather I am going to make an end of them by the sword, famine and pestilence.”
— Jeremiah 14:11-12

God commanded Jeremiah to not pray for the people. That violates what I’ve seen some argue as God being all-loving.

God there may have been the Holy Spirit that does not forgive blasphemy. Apparently the Father is the example we're supposed to follow. Ezekiel relayed similar messages, so it wasn't just Jeremiah.

In the law given to Moses, there were curses promised due to disobedience, and blessings if they were obedient. The prophecies were all based on the curses for disobedience in the law.

Once Jesus died on the cross, He replaced the function of the law, so we didn't need to be afraid of God anymore. Furthermore, the Father entrusted all judgment to the Son, who forgave those who crucified Him.

So, it's complicated... if you start from a pre-exile passage in the old testament.

 

[Hammster]

Call it what you will, they were warned of the consequences but that didn't answer my question. Do you think God was wrong in His treatment?

I’m calling it what it was. It’s all throughout the book. And there’s a huge difference. And no, God was not wrong.

 

[sawdust]

I’m calling it what it was. It’s all throughout the book. And there’s a huge difference. And no, God was not wrong.

Then what is it exactly that you are trying to say?

 

[concretecamper]

 

[Hammster]

Then what is it exactly that you are trying to say?

That the idea that God loves everyone equally and tries to save everyone is not found in scripture as a whole.

 

[sawdust]

That the idea that God loves everyone equally and tries to save everyone is not found in scripture as a whole.

Aha! Well that is not what I was getting from your OP so I'm glad I persisted in asking. I thought you were trying to say God is not all good. I agree God does not love all equally. "Equally" being the operative word in the equation. We all begin from an equal platform as God loves all in that He seeks only the highest and best for us without respect to who or what we are (or may become) but there are consequences to rejecting Him. I think sometimes people confuse the statement "God is Love" to mean "God is Affectionate".

 

[Hammster]

Aha! Well that is not what I was getting from your OP so I'm glad I persisted in asking. I thought you were trying to say God is not all good. I agree God does not love all equally. "Equally" being the operative word in the equation. We all begin from an equal platform as God loves all in that He seeks only the highest and best for us without respect to who or what we are (or may become) but there are consequences to rejecting Him. I think sometimes people confuse the statement "God is Love" to mean "God is Affectionate".

The equal platform is that we are all born in sin and deserve eternal punishment.

 

[sawdust]

The equal platform is that we are all born in sin and deserve eternal punishment.

I don't believe we can say we "deserve" eternal punishment as it was Adam's sin that brought us into this position. It is true however that even if by some miracle we never committed any personal sin of our own, without God's grace, we would still end up in eternal torment. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Obviously though, because we are born dead spiritually, it is guaranteed we will sin and warrant punishment.

The only way one could truly say we "deserve" eternal punishment is if we were all born evil but we are not, we are born sinners. We are born amoral when it comes to good and evil.

The wages of sin is spiritual death, not eternal punishment.

 

[bling]

Ah, just some loving discipline like death, famine and captivity.

Yes.
death is not bad in and of itself is it?

 

[Hammster]

I don't believe we can say we "deserve" eternal punishment as it was Adam's sin that brought us into this position. It is true however that even if by some miracle we never committed any personal sin of our own, without God's grace, we would still end up in eternal torment. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Obviously though, because we are born dead spiritually, it is guaranteed we will sin and warrant punishment.

The only way one could truly say we "deserve" eternal punishment is if we were all born evil but we are not, we are born sinners. We are born amoral when it comes to good and evil.

The wages of sin is spiritual death, not eternal punishment.

We deserve eternal punishment because of imputed sin. We receive an eternal reward because of imputed righteousness. This is Romans 5.

 

[Hammster]

Yes.
death is not bad in and of itself is it?

It is, actually.

 

[sawdust]

We deserve eternal punishment because of imputed sin. We receive an eternal reward because of imputed righteousness. This is Romans 5.

The wages of sin is spiritual death not the lake of fire. We are not born into the position of deserving the lake of fire and it was Adam's sin which dragged us all into spiritual death not any of our personal sins.

The only way to actually deserve the lake of fire is to reject God and His Christ. That doesn't alter the fact, if not for God's grace, we would have not avoided the lake of fire but we would have had no understanding as to why we ended up there. As it stands now, those who end up in the lake will know exactly why they are there.

Just as a point of clarification, when you say deserve, I understand it to mean something one has earned.

 

[Hammster]

The wages of sin is spiritual death not the lake of fire. We are not born into the position of deserving the lake of fire and it was Adam's sin which dragged us all into spiritual death not any of our personal sins.

The only way to actually deserve the lake of fire is to reject God and His Christ. That doesn't alter the fact, if not for God's grace, we would have not avoided the lake of fire but we would have had no understanding as to why we ended up there. As it stands now, those who end up in the lake will know exactly why they are there.

Just as a point of clarification, when you say deserve, I understand it to mean something one has earned.

Every sin is a rejection of God. So everyone deserves eternal punishment.

 

[bling]

It is, actually.

Death is the way the saved get to go home to their rest and the lost quit doing bad stuff, so how is that "bad"?

 

[ViaCrucis]

"Those whom I love, I rebuke and chastise" - Revelation 3:19

As we look through the Old Testament we find, time and again, that with judgment comes God's love and mercy. God does not chastise Israel out of malice, but out of love. For the Prophets speak at once both of judgment and redemption, of sorrow and rejoicing, of rebuke and blessing. For God will bring fire, and out of fire bring forth silver and gold, precious and pure.

For it is written, "Our God is an all consuming fire", and yet,

"But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fuller's soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver," - Malachi 3:2-3

"For I, YHWH, do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you, says YHWH of hosts." - Malachi 3:6-7

And then the Lord says to His Church,

"For you say, 'I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing' not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Those whom I love, I rebuke and chastise, so be earnest and repent. Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and eat with him, and he with Me." - Revelation 3:17-20

The love of God is for a thousand generations. He loves and He chastises, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed is the name of the Lord, His word endures forever.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[sawdust]

Every sin is a rejection of God. So everyone deserves eternal punishment.

Sin is the result of rejecting God. When one's own desire is given precedence over the word of God then one will sin.

James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

We are not condemned (to the lake of fire) because we are sinners, we are condemned because we reject God. We are born spiritually dead. This means we do not know God and have no capacity to know Him. You cannot reject what you do not know. The Lord begins His work of revealing Himself with creation (Rom.1:18-21) and continues to draw those who learn from Him to the Christ. (Jn.6:44&45)

 

[Hammster]

Death is the way the saved get to go home to their rest and the lost quit doing bad stuff, so how is that "bad"?

Because death is an enemy, and the last enemy Christ will defeat before He returns.

 

[Hammster]

Sin is the result of rejecting God. When one's own desire is given precedence over the word of God then one will sin.

James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

We are not condemned (to the lake of fire) because we are sinners, we are condemned because we reject God. We are born spiritually dead. This means we do not know God and have no capacity to know Him. You cannot reject what you do not know. The Lord begins His work of revealing Himself with creation (Rom.1:18-21) and continues to draw those who learn from Him to the Christ. (Jn.6:44&45)

You’ve made the act of rejecting God to be unsinful.

 

[sawdust]

You’ve made the act of rejecting God to be unsinful.

No idea how you work that out. The scripture tells us the act of sin results from putting our desires first (Jms.1:15) and in that process we reject God's truth. We see this clearly in the Garden. We are not born rejecting God in our soul. The sin nature resides in the flesh. (Rom.7:23) This is due to our inheritance from Adam. It is only when the mind is set on the flesh that we are led astray into unrighteousness. But, as I said before, because we are born spiritually dead it is guaranteed we will be led astray and sin.

We are not sinning to sin. We are rejecting truth from which sin flows. To reject truth is evil, it isn't just lawlessness (1Jn.3:4). It is why evil cannot be corrected and must be separated eternally because the very thing that would correct evil is the very thing evil rejects, Truth. Christ could die for our sins but he could never die for our evil for to do so would require Him rejecting Himself. He can't do that. (2Tim.2:13)