For those who argue for the omnibenevolence of God…

[Hammster]

So the Lord said to me, “Do not pray for the welfare of this people. When they fast, I am not going to listen to their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I am not going to accept them. Rather I am going to make an end of them by the sword, famine and pestilence.”
— Jeremiah 14:11-12

God commanded Jeremiah to not pray for the people. That violates what I’ve seen some argue as God being all-loving.

 

[public hermit]

"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him." 1 John 4:7-9

Calvinists often follow Calvin closely in denying that God is love. Calvin never quotes the above passage in the Institutes. When he does discuss it in his commentaries, he asserts God only loves the elect. If we have a hateful conception of God, we will generally be hateful people, as well. God is love.

 

[bling]

So the Lord said to me, “Do not pray for the welfare of this people. When they fast, I am not going to listen to their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I am not going to accept them. Rather I am going to make an end of them by the sword, famine and pestilence.”
— Jeremiah 14:11-12

God commanded Jeremiah to not pray for the people. That violates what I’ve seen some argue as God being all-loving.

As usual you have to take the verse in context of the book of Jeremiah.

• The Jews in Jerusalem at this time were going through routine of fasting, sacrificing, and “worship”, but their hearts were far from actions and they were taking advantage of others and worshipping idols, also.
• You cannot pray salvation for people, since salvation is up to the individual or in this case the hearts of the nation.
• Jer. 18: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
• Do people make their own gods?
• Yes, but they are not gods!”
• 
  
• 21 “Therefore I will teach them—
• this time I will teach them
• my power and might.
• Then they will know
• that my name is the Lord.

 

[Hammster]

"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him." 1 John 4:7-9

Calvinists often follow Calvin closely in denying that God is love. Calvin never quotes the above passage in the Institutes. When he does discuss it in his commentaries, he asserts God only loves the elect. If we have a hateful conception of God, we will generally be hateful people, as well. God is love.

Did I quote Calvin, or scripture?

 

[Hammster]

As usual you have to take the verse in context of the book of Jeremiah.

Not really. I’ve been reading through the book. This is very much in context.

• The Jews in Jerusalem at this time were going through routine of fasting, sacrificing, and “worship”, but their hearts were far from actions and they were taking advantage of others and worshipping idols, also.
• You cannot pray salvation for people, since salvation is up to the individual or in this case the hearts of the nation.
• Jer. 18: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
• Do people make their own gods?
• Yes, but they are not gods!”
• 
  
• 21 “Therefore I will teach them—
• this time I will teach them
• my power and might.
• Then they will know
• that my name is the Lord.

I see. God was saying that it’s a sin to pray for the lost. Gotcha.

 

[bling]

Not really. I’ve been reading through the book. This is very much in context.

I see. God was saying that it’s a sin to pray for the lost. Gotcha.

I did not say: "It is a sin to pray for the Lost", God said: "Do not pray for the welfare of this people.", but that can be in part because: "Therefore I will teach them" The extreme hardship they will go through is to Lovingly teach them and really all of us.
All the tragedies of this world are to provide opportunities for us to learn and grow, so we should not be praying for the tragedies to go away, but for us and others to cease the opportunities.

 

[public hermit]

Did I quote Calvin, or scripture?

Did I quote you?

 

[Hammster]

I did not say: "It is a sin to pray for the Lost", God said: "Do not pray for the welfare of this people.", but that can be in part because: "Therefore I will teach them" The extreme hardship they will go through is to Lovingly teach them and really all of us.
All the tragedies of this world are to provide opportunities for us to learn and grow, so we should not be praying for the tragedies to go away, but for us and others to cease the opportunities.

You mentioned context. V. 21 says
Do not despise us, for Your own name’s sake;
Do not disgrace the throne of Your glory;
Remember and do not annul Your covenant with us.
— Jeremiah 14:21

The next chapter starts

Then the Lord said to me, “Even though Moses and Samuel were to stand before Me, My heart would not be with this people; send them away from My presence and let them go! And it shall be that when they say to you, ‘Where should we go?’ then you are to tell them, ‘Thus says the Lord:
“Those destined for death, to death;
And those destined for the sword, to the sword;
And those destined for famine, to famine;
And those destined for captivity, to captivity.”’
— Jeremiah 15:1-2

 

[Hammster]

Did I quote you?

No, but you brought up Calvin as if he’s somehow relevant here.

 

[public hermit]

No, but you brought up Calvin as if he’s somehow relevant here.

It's relevant, as is the passage I quoted. Readers with discernment will understand.

 

[Hammster]

It's relevant, as is the passage I quoted. Readers with discernment will understand.

This isn’t a “post random verses” forum. It’s also not a “post a straw man argument against Calvinism” thread (I have two of those already). If you don’t want to comment on the passage in the OP, that’s fine. But please don’t derail this thread.

 

[public hermit]

This isn’t a “post random verses” forum. It’s also not a “post a straw man argument against Calvinism” thread (I have two of those already). If you don’t want to comment on the passage in the OP, that’s fine. But please don’t derail this thread.

Okay, my mistake. You posted a verse that you think contradicts the fact that God is all-loving. I posted one in support. But, you're right; it's your thread.

 

[Hammster]

Okay, my mistake. You posted a verse that you think contradicts the fact that God is all-loving. I posted one in support. But, you're right; it's your thread.

It would be nice if you explained how you reconcile the two.

 

[bling]

You mentioned context. V. 21 says
Do not despise us, for Your own name’s sake;
Do not disgrace the throne of Your glory;
Remember and do not annul Your covenant with us.
— Jeremiah 14:21

The next chapter starts

Then the Lord said to me, “Even though Moses and Samuel were to stand before Me, My heart would not be with this people; send them away from My presence and let them go! And it shall be that when they say to you, ‘Where should we go?’ then you are to tell them, ‘Thus says the Lord:
“Those destined for death, to death;
And those destined for the sword, to the sword;
And those destined for famine, to famine;
And those destined for captivity, to captivity.”’
— Jeremiah 15:1-2

Jeremiah is making some great points, but is not looking long term at the matter. It is time to teach these jews and everyone else a needed lesson at the cost of God's pride.
God will still keep His promises.
Moses and Samuel words cannot override the need for the lesson God will teach, through some severe punishment (they are not willing to humbly accept Loving severe discipline.
I have pointed out other Loving acts God can and will do if they repent.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So the Lord said to me, “Do not pray for the welfare of this people. When they fast, I am not going to listen to their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I am not going to accept them. Rather I am going to make an end of them by the sword, famine and pestilence.”
— Jeremiah 14:11-12

God commanded Jeremiah to not pray for the people. That violates what I’ve seen some argue as God being all-loving.

Where biblical theology is concerned, I've never argued for the term "omni-benevolence" or "Godly love" in relation to God, nor do I attempt to do so in ways that any Human Rights activists alive today would accept. I don't because there were good reasons why the Israelites of Jeremiah's generation went into the Babylonian Exile ... and that's what this verse reflects. It shouldn't be that difficult for any of us to understand this if we know that where the God of the Bible is the subject, we are dealing with a Holy God who can't be trifled with, even by His own people.

The exceptional quality of this command made to Jeremiah probably also influenced the reason John expressed what he did in 1 John 5:16-17.

“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life – to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.”​

 

[sawdust]

So the Lord said to me, “Do not pray for the welfare of this people. When they fast, I am not going to listen to their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I am not going to accept them. Rather I am going to make an end of them by the sword, famine and pestilence.”
— Jeremiah 14:11-12

God commanded Jeremiah to not pray for the people. That violates what I’ve seen some argue as God being all-loving.

Are you suggesting that harsh discipline is unloving? I'm a bit confused by what you are trying to get across. God is love. I've never seen the problem as God not being love in instances like you quote but rather the problem is our understanding of what love is and it's our understanding that needs correcting.

I think there are too many people out there who think love is some sort of "warm fuzzy" and therefore cannot comprehend God dealing out strong/harsh discipline.

 

[Hammster]

Jeremiah is making some great points, but is not looking long term at the matter. It is time to teach these jews and everyone else a needed lesson at the cost of God's pride.
God will still keep His promises.
Moses and Samuel words cannot override the need for the lesson God will teach, through some severe punishment (they are not willing to humbly accept Loving severe discipline.
I have pointed out other Loving acts God can and will do if they repent.

Ah, just some loving discipline like death, famine and captivity.

 

[Hammster]

Are you suggesting that harsh discipline is unloving? I'm a bit confused by what you are trying to get across. God is love. I've never seen the problem as God not being love in instances like you quote but rather the problem is our understanding of what love is and it's our understanding that needs correcting.

I think there are too many people out there who think love is some sort of "warm fuzzy" and therefore cannot comprehend God dealing out strong/harsh discipline.

Yeah, death, famine and captivity are awesome ways to display love.

 

[sawdust]

Yeah, death, famine and captivity are awesome ways to display love.

So you think God was wrong to discipline His people in the way He did?

 

[Hammster]

So you think God was wrong to discipline His people in the way He did?

It was punishment, not discipline. This is the cursing He promised to bring on His people for being obedient.