Flat Earth and Earth-centric solar system according to the Bible

[Archie the Preacher]

Isaiah 40:22 (King James Version) It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

This verse is extracted from a larger portion - more or less the whole fortieth chapter of Isaiah discussing the Lord God and His comparison to idols. It is, however, the first clause of verse 22 which is plucked out and presented as proof the world is flat. A circle is a two dimensional object and therefore the Earth is flat.

For those who wish to further study the belief, do a web search for ‘Biblical proof of flat Earth’ and dig right in. There are far too many sites and references for me to list here.

It is still believed; look at the videos on the subject.

Isaiah 38:8 (King James Version) Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

This is part of the account of King Hezekiah’s sickness and impending death, which was postponed by the Lord. It is also found in Second Kings 20 and reports the same incidents.

According to Isaiah 38:8, the Sun ‘..returned ten degrees…” This is a clear statement the Sun moves around the Earth, not the Earth around the Sun. It says so in the Bible!

Other Bible quotes demonstrating the same truth:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

I’m probably missing some, but again, feel free to check on your own. It’s too voluminous for me to detail.

This is the proof supporting the Ptolemaic Model of the solar system - the stars didn’t count - and the official Christian version of the solar system (at the time). Departing from this accepted and Bible proofed version was what put Galileo under house arrest and kept Nicolas Copernicus from publishing his findings during his life.

No nonsense about “But that was the Roman Catholic Church!” The proof was the infallible and unquestionable word of the Holy Bible!

Both of these ideas are found in the text of the Bible.

So here are the discussion questions:

One. Do you believe the Earth is flat and stationary? (Yes or no.)

Two. Upon what grounds do you base your opinion, decision, choice? To be transparent, I am specifically interested in why do you not accept the simple and straightforward wording of Holy Writ.

 

[-57]

If the earth is flat...how did the space shuttle fly around it?

 

[mmksparbud]

Oh, not another thread on this---
Not a single one of those verses means what you think they do. They do not say the earth does not move---it says it can't be moved. No one is going to go out there and shove it aside, it is not going off it's orbit, it is not going to fall .

How does the sun dial going backwards prove a flat earth?? You think that the God who spoke a world into existence and created the sun and everything in it, can't have accomplished this except through a flat earth????!!! I've read all those verses, on many other threads---Have you never been on an airplane and seen the horizon curve? I have. I've also been on the ocean when the boat goes under the horizon. If the firmament is like a dome over the earth, then it is getting lower and lower as it nears this arctic circle that encircles the flat earth---so you should be able to walk right up to where the earth and firmament meet---now, some one said you can't go there, it is prohibited, convenient to say that, however, at some point fairly close to this edge of the earth, the firmament is much lower than in the middle, so if someone goes up in a balloon at that point, it'll be really close-----so please send pictures and videos of it--should be no problem. There was a group of flat earthers who were going to take pictures and videos from a balloon they were going up in---there were "technical" problems and they didn't do it----apparently they have given up---or maybe they saw the curvature for themselves and had to call it off, couldn't cope with the embarrassment.
Have you never been to an observatory--I was at the one in L.A. Awesome thing, you can see all the planets are round--all of them -- you can see the moon is round---why would this earth be any different?? You can even see the curvature of the earth on a lunar eclipse.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

If the earth is flat...how did the space shuttle fly around it?

Perhaps you should learn to read. There are questions to discuss and no need for premature conclusions.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Oh, not another thread on this---

Perhaps you should learn to read. There are questions to discuss and no need for premature conclusions.

 

[toLiJC]

it is already proven that from a physical point of view the atoms and the planets are spherical, but that is from a physical point of view - we can also view the earth as flat

Blessings

 

[Archie the Preacher]

it is already proven that from a physical point of view the atoms and the planets are spherical, but that is from a physical point of view - we can also view the earth as flat

So you're going to waffle and not take a position?

If that is your position, fine. You missed the 'why?' part. Perhaps the more important question; why do you refuse to believe in a flat or spherical Earth?

 

[Hieronymus]

Indeed, the earth is flat in the Bible.
This is God's perspective on it i.m.o.
No evidence to support it in our space-time reality, it's a sphere.
Our solar system seems to be in the centre of the universe though.

Test everything.

 

[toLiJC]

So you're going to waffle and not take a position?

If that is your position, fine. You missed the 'why?' part. Perhaps the more important question; why do you refuse to believe in a flat or spherical Earth?

it is not (so) important, more important is the overall salvation in the true Lord God, or what if we live in most wonderful world but without there being an eternal life for anyone inhabiting it?!

Blessings

 

[-57]

Perhaps you should learn to read. There are questions to discuss and no need for premature conclusions.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at when you said..."Perhaps you should learn to read"...

I was just adding to the thread asking a question...you know, discussing when I asked "If the earth is flat...how did the space shuttle fly around it?"

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Indeed, the earth is flat in the Bible.
This is God's perspective on it i.m.o.
No evidence to support it in our space-time reality, it's a sphere.
Our solar system seems to be in the centre of the universe though.

Test everything.

Excellent non-answer. Better than I expected.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at when you said..."Perhaps you should learn to read"...

I was just adding to the thread asking a question...you know, discussing when I asked "If the earth is flat...how did the space shuttle fly around it?"

You don't comprehend 'learn to read'? Yet you seem to understand English. "Adding"? By ignoring all the questions? I asked if you agreed with the premise and then why? or why not?

I gather you do not agree, okay? Or am I being presumptuous?

Now for the why? Could it be observation and (vicarious) experience? Yes, I'm putting words in your mouth - er, fingers - but I really desire some actual opinions instead of hints and innuendo.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

it is not (so) important, more important is the overall salvation in the true Lord God, or what if we live in most wonderful world but without there being an eternal life for anyone inhabiting it?!

toLiJC, if you asked me if I were born in the United States, and I replied, "Some says I was and some says I wasn't", would that answer your question?

Salvation from God through Jesus Christ is indeed the most important 'thing' (condition, event, development, iteration) in existence. However, that was not at all what I was asking. No wonder these threads drift so fast.

 

[PapaZoom]

Isaiah 40:22 (King James Version) It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

This verse is extracted from a larger portion - more or less the whole fortieth chapter of Isaiah discussing the Lord God and His comparison to idols. It is, however, the first clause of verse 22 which is plucked out and presented as proof the world is flat. A circle is a two dimensional object and therefore the Earth is flat.

For those who wish to further study the belief, do a web search for ‘Biblical proof of flat Earth’ and dig right in. There are far too many sites and references for me to list here.

It is still believed; look at the videos on the subject.

Isaiah 38:8 (King James Version) Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

This is part of the account of King Hezekiah’s sickness and impending death, which was postponed by the Lord. It is also found in Second Kings 20 and reports the same incidents.

According to Isaiah 38:8, the Sun ‘..returned ten degrees…” This is a clear statement the Sun moves around the Earth, not the Earth around the Sun. It says so in the Bible!

Other Bible quotes demonstrating the same truth:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

I’m probably missing some, but again, feel free to check on your own. It’s too voluminous for me to detail.

This is the proof supporting the Ptolemaic Model of the solar system - the stars didn’t count - and the official Christian version of the solar system (at the time). Departing from this accepted and Bible proofed version was what put Galileo under house arrest and kept Nicolas Copernicus from publishing his findings during his life.

No nonsense about “But that was the Roman Catholic Church!” The proof was the infallible and unquestionable word of the Holy Bible!

Both of these ideas are found in the text of the Bible.

So here are the discussion questions:

One. Do you believe the Earth is flat and stationary? (Yes or no.)

Two. Upon what grounds do you base your opinion, decision, choice? To be transparent, I am specifically interested in why do you not accept the simple and straightforward wording of Holy Writ.

1: No, the earth is not flat and stationary (except in Iowa).
2: I based this on science and I've seen pictures plus you can fly around the globe and I don't believe nor have I ever believed that the Bible teaches a flat earth.

 

[JackRT]

Modern or ancient, every culture operates within a certain cosmology or understanding of the universe. This cosmology sets the context of how a people understand their world and their place in it. With very few exceptions our modern day cosmology is shaped by the scientific discoveries of the past 500 years. Some of these discoveries have greatly upset religious understandings and it sometimes takes centuries to reconcile the differences. However, since we live in a culture that has been greatly shaped by the bible and Christian beliefs, it is worthwhile to ask about biblical cosmology.

The biblical understanding of the universe is much the same as that of the surrounding cultures in the ancient Middle East at the time when it was written. Unfortunately, nowhere does the bible attempt to present a comprehensive cosmology, so we are forced to rely upon individual passages and to attempt to understand them in the light of their culture and their history. To begin with, biblical cosmology can be characterized as a three-tiered universe. This strange phrase needs some explanation to make the concept clearer.

First, the surface of the earth is circular and flat except for geographical features like hills and valleys. This of course was the belief of the Sumerians. To these people it was theoretically possible to go high enough to see the entire earth, or to envision a tree tall enough that it could be seen from everywhere on the earth's surface, or even to build a tower to reach the sky. The sky was thought of as a solid bowl, called the firmament, that was upended over the circular earth to enclose a volume in the shape of a hemisphere. I should add that there are some bible verses that speak of the four corners of the earth. This was the view of the Babylonians. This would make the firmament look more like a tent than a bowl. The lights of the sky (sun, moon, planets and stars) were inside the firmament and were very much smaller than we presently understand. In fact they were very much smaller than the earth itself. The mechanism by which these celestial objects moved about is not really explained. The noncanonical Book of Enoch (mentioned in the bible as authoritive and part of the canon of Ethiopian Christians) speaks of gates in the east and west for the sun and the moon to enter and leave. Enoch also suggests that their movements are caused by winds.

What I have just described is the middle tier of the three. Above the firmament are waters. This region is described as heaven, the abode of God and the angels. There were also gates in the firmament to permit water to enter as rain. Below the earth are also waters. This region is described as sheol or hell. There were also gates in the earth to permit water to spring up from below. This three level universe is variously described as either hung on nothing or supported by pillars. Storehouses are also envisioned in heaven for the snow and hail.

How should a of Christian today react to this biblical cosmology? The vast majority of what might be described as 'mainline' Christians are actually quite comfortable with this seeming dichotomy. They recognize that the bible is the product of a relatively unsophisticated people with an entirely pre-scientific understanding of nature, who used poetic or metaphorical language to convey their spiritual understandings. On the other hand there is the minority point of view of those Christians who regard the bible to be inerrant and to be understood literally. This group has been forced into extreme apologetic efforts in order to reconcile the bible with modern scientific understandings.

Speaking personally, I find these apologetic attempts to be rather inventive and very strained. I believe that if the scripture writers and early target audience were to read these apologetics, they would find them extremely puzzling and entirely foreign. This is not to say that they were not intelligent people or not keen observers of nature but rather that that they lacked the intellectual basis to form scientific hypotheses and even the instrumentation to gather accurate data --- all that came about some 2,000 years later.

Isaiah 11:12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Psalm 104:5 "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."(NIV)

Psalm 93:1"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (NIV)

Psalm 96:10 "Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." (NIV)

Ecclesiastes 1:5 "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." (NIV)

Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (NIV)

Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (NIV)

Job 26:11 The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke. (NIV)

Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail," (NIV)

Amos 9:6 The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens and has founded His VAULTED DOME over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name. (NASB)

The biblical flat earth cosmology persisted into New Testament times. However by the mid second century Christianity had largely lost its Jewish roots and understandings and had become a gentile Greek speaking movement. Of course the Greeks knew that the earth was a sphere thanks to Eratosthenes who actually was able to calculate the circumference around 240 BC. This knowledge gradually percolated into Jewish and Christian thought especially after Ptolemy introduced his cosmology in the mid second century. The earth became the center of the universe with the moon and then the sun and then the planets, with complicated epicycles, and then the “fixed” stars all in orbit around it. This was the cosmology accepted by Christianity until the revolution of Copernicus, Kepler. Galileo and Newton. This was resisted by Christianity largely on the basis that the earth was not the center of God’s creation. In a relatively short time even this scientific insight was not only accepted but accepted to the extent that the biblical cosmology of a flat earth was rejected. The flat earth was not only rejected but ridiculous arguments were even invented to suggest that the bible was not even suggesting a flat earth at all. Such, all too often, is the way some Christians react to new understandings and insights.

Even having said all this, the belief in a flat earth persisted for a very long time, even in educated circles, as is evidenced in this comment by Ferdinand Magellan, the first person to circumnavigate the globe: “The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.” It took time but the modern cosmology took root in society at large, so much so that some Christians even return to the bible and attempt to reinterpret it in such a way as to “prove” that it was speaking of a spherical earth orbiting the sun all along.

 

[mmksparbud]

Perhaps you should learn to read. There are questions to discuss and no need for premature conclusions.

Perhaps you should learn to read---I asked questions and perhaps you could answer them. You made the claim, which is already a premature conclusion---

 

[Archie the Preacher]

1: No, the earth is not flat and stationary (except in Iowa).

Okay. I was born in Kansas and currently live in Nebraska. Flat. I lived for something close to thirty-six years in California. It moves.

2: I based this on science and I've seen pictures plus you can fly around the globe...

Like I did before to -57, could this be phrased correctly as 'observation and experience'?

I'm going to quibble with you a bit.

... I based this on science ...

PZ, 'science' is a pretty broad field, AND 'science' doesn't communicate by itself.

... and I don't believe nor have I ever believed that the Bible teaches a flat earth.

PZ, I agree with you. However, there are specific passages which state such things occurred. How do YOU (I know how I do, but I'm trying not to contaminate the test sample) reconcile the difference?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Jack, excellent research and writing. I hope someone other than me reads all of it. I'll quibble one thing: The shape of the Earth being round and not flat was known - suspected? - by Aristotle. So I'd say that particular knowledge was probably 'here and there' and sort of filtered into general acceptance over time.

(We won't discuss those who still don't know and won't ask such a question.)

I have more discussion - not confrontational - about your post, but I want to get a few more people involved first.

Thank you.

 

[PapaZoom]

Okay. I was born in Kansas and currently live in Nebraska. Flat. I lived for something close to thirty-six years in California. It moves.

Like I did before to -57, could this be phrased correctly as 'observation and experience'?

I'm going to quibble with you a bit. PZ, 'science' is a pretty broad field, AND 'science' doesn't communicate by itself.

PZ, I agree with you. However, there are specific passages which state such things occurred. How do YOU (I know how I do, but I'm trying not to contaminate the test sample) reconcile the difference?

I honestly don't give it much thought. I can't believe there are actually people in the world that believe the world was flat. Is flat. And I don't see how such a conversation can even matter in the first place. What's the point? It's a curiosity mostly. Unless I"m just too dull to see the bigger picture.

 

[toLiJC]

toLiJC, if you asked me if I were born in the United States, and I replied, "Some says I was and some says I wasn't", would that answer your question?

Salvation from God through Jesus Christ is indeed the most important 'thing' (condition, event, development, iteration) in existence. However, that was not at all what I was asking. No wonder these threads drift so fast.

it was already answered in my previous post, from a physical viewpoint the place where we are physically located now is a planet and it is spherical, from a viewpoint of the naked physical human eyes of a man who walks on the surface of this planet the earth where we are physically located now is flat, albeit with uplands and lowlands

Blessings