Firmament and waters above: time to choose

How do you understand the upper waters of Genesis 1, Day 2?

  • Vapour canopy

  • Orbiting ice rings

  • Cosmic material

  • Ice wall at edge of universe

  • Clouds

  • MYTHOLOGICAL

  • I have another interpretation (please explain in post)

  • I really don't know, or don't care


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gluadys

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JAL said:
Ummm...No. Not in every sense you please, in my opinion. You are imposing upon the text an apriori metaphysics unsuggested by the text, contrary to the literal reading.

I would agree the Genesis 1 text does not suggest omnipresence. For that you have to go to other passages of scripture e.g. Psalm 139: 7-12.


If God were - in all possible senses - plenally proximate to every particle, there could be no literal outpouring of the Spirit. (Oh, I forgot, for you, nothing in the Bible is literal).

You rebuked me in your earlier post for "making false representatoins of my position". If I have done so I apologize, for that was not my intention. This, however, is the second time you have misrepresented my position. I have never taken the position that nothing in the Bible is literal.

I would agree that the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost was an actual historical event and in that sense it literally happened. I would not agree that it involved physical fire, any more than it does when a person experiences the outpouring of the Spirit today.
 
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steen

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JAL said:
You say that my identifying the firmament with gravity :
Ummmm....wrong. The firmament is depicted as a physical anchor of the stars, what holds them in place. It so happens that God as a physical anchor is the only reasonable explantion of gravity that I have every heard of to date.
And yet, nowhere in the Bible is this stated. This is purely YOUR INVENTION.

Gravity cannot be explained otherwise.
A flat-out falsehood.

Thus, taking all the datasources into account (Scripture, Science, and God's voice), I am led to this conclusion by epistemological synergy, as explained earlier.
But then, scripture doesn't mention gravity; it is purely your imagination at work here.

This statement reflects the fact that scientifically skilled minds are often philosophically naiive. You have to be philosophically naiive, for example, as Newton pointed out, to believe that gravity is a real force.
Ah, another "just because I say so" postulation.

If it's not a force, then what causes it? The only other explanation, scientifically, is a physical mass,
Nope. Ever heard of gravitons? No? Well, they certainly are an explanation. Once again, your absolutists claims are false and ignorant.;

in my view its God's own substance physically manifest, as for instance the Wind that pushed apart the waters of the red sea.
Yes, we don't doubt it is your view. However, the Bible certainly is not telling us this, so wherever you got this idea from, it certainly wasn't from God.

You will have difficulty defining the biblical miracles, logically, as something other than God as a physical pushing, pulling, or contorting matter.
Why do we need to define or prove the physics of miracles?

You say that I should take a course in physics to learn the cause of gravity. There is no scientifically established "cause" of gravity. Some scientific people are candid enough to admit that they don't know what causes it.
And yet, there is quite a bit of research into it.

And does His Word do the miracle magically, or physically? If God operated magically (He speaks and so it is), there would be no need for Him to approach the regiion involved. That's not how the Bible depicts miracles. He sends His Spirit into the locale to work the miracle. Why bother venture into that region, if it's all done from afar by magic? Therefore He needs the physical proximity to work the miracle, because He does it physically, not magically.
Why? What is so limited about God that this cannot be done?

One reason He does it physically is that Genesis subsided His creational activity.
Did it now? What scripture are you basing THAT on?

Hence His task now is to handle (manipulate) existing matter. This requires a field of energy/matter to do the handling, so He can send either a lifeless body of energy/matter OR His own Spirit in a tangible form.
Ah, so God must operate by the laws of physics? That kind of invalidates a big chunk of the Bible right there. It is always a problem when we feel a need to explain God through science and physics.

He does the latter, according to Scripure.
False.
 
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steen

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JAL said:
Thank you!. You just brightened my day with peals of laughter, and I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing WITH you, as you are laughing at your (misuderstanding of) my position.

"And Stephen looked up into heaven, and saw God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God" (Acts 6). The disciples watched Jesus ascend directly into the clouds before their eyes. The famous evangelical theologian Lewis Sperry Chafer argued that angels are physical beings. Why then don't we see them by every day, or by mechanical instruments? Because God hides them from our detection except when He chooses to unveil heaven, as He did for Stephen. I shouldn't have needed to explain that, you should have figured it out. But I'm glad you didn't because you gave me a great laugh. Thank you!
AH, so the firmament is made up of angels? That would be the only explanation for your otherwise utterly irrelevant text here.
 
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steen

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JAL said:
False analogy. Deep down you realize these two claims are very different, probably,, but you are pretending they are perfectly parallel. The difference is that when I approach the candle, it doesn't behave differently. It doesn't spew out more light. Naturally I run into more light, but neither of us are behaving differently with respect to intensity of radiation. The gravity claim is very different.[/qote]An outright falsehood. Gravity intensity is functioning exactly the same as light intensity.

That you don't know this, even when it was explained to you in this very tread is puzzling.
 
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steen

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JAL said:
But I'm not saying the text alludes to gravity. Gluadys, you often weary me. You have a tendency to go round and round with me in circles making false representatoins of my position to support your posiiton.
You made claims about gravity and claimed scriptural foundation for your claim. As Gluadys pointed out, this would be a false claim.

My claim is not Gensis is "a treatise on gravity" (there is no Hebrew word for "gravity" so you should desist from this silly objection). But it clearly depicts a material body of mass as the anchor for the stars. It so turns out that this is the only scientific explanation (a body of mass pushing on all particles) I can come up with for gravity.
And yet, you have absolutely NO evidence that what the Bible describes is gravity. This is your personal INTERPRETATION. And you also have completely ignored the scientific work on gravity and then claim that there isn't any. That's downright dishonest.
 
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steen

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JAL said:
Rather there is sufficient space between particles for Him to facilitate permeations and diffusions, precisely as Jesus walked through a wall. Hence we could descend into the core of the earth without colliding with hell even though it is, in my opinion, somewhere down there. And the heavenly city is "up there."
So you admit that your position is solely based on imagination, then?
 
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JAL

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And yet, nowhere in the Bible is this stated. This is purely YOUR INVENTION.
And I never said the Bible so stated. Are you angry at the world? You sure seem that way.. You seem so hostile that I’m not sure I care to debate with you. I was debating with an evolutionist who at one point said, “Get out of my country” - and he was serious! You’re not like that, are you?


Ever heard of gravitons?
To postulate a mechanism of gravity reflects the fact of gravity without establishing the cause. I don’t have to know what a “graviton” is to realize that. Nonetheless, I’ll look it up at Wikipedia in a moment, to humor you momentarily (and that isn’t easy, believe me). Ok, here’s what it said:


In physics, the graviton is a hypothetical elementary particle that transmits the force of gravity in the framework of quantum field theory. If it exists, the graviton must be massless (because the gravitational force has unlimited range) and must have a spin of 2 (because gravity is a second-rank tensor field).

So now we’re not going to call it a (magical, unexplained) “force”, as in the old days, but now we’ll refer to it as a particle without mass? A substance without substance? And you say I am the one with the vivid imagination? Please. But – hey. Thanks a lot, for if it is true that you are as knowledgeable about science as you claim to be, I could hardly ask for a better confirmation of my position than your silly “graviton” explanation. And this is not to suggest that the graviton theory is innaccurate quantitatively - even Newton’s theory of gravity was quite accurate. But he realized it was foolishness taken literally. And in heaven, I believe, God will show you the same about your gravitons.
 
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JAL

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AH, so the firmament is made up of angels? That would be the only explanation for your otherwise utterly irrelevant text here.
Is this really the best you can do? You project an aura of such intelligence. Do you know how to read? I’m pretty dumb, but even I could have done better than that. The question at issue, when I wrote what I did, is why the firmament isn’t visible or mechanically detectable. To answer that question, I adduced a biblical vision where Stephen looked straight up in the sky and saw – saw what? He saw the heavenly city, the Father, and the Son. I then stated rather explicitly, in a way that can hardly be missed, that God was unveiling the invisible (the invisible firmament). Here’s what I wrote, and even a child could have understood it (and believe me, I don’t claim to be smarter than most children)



"And Stephen looked up into heaven, and saw God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God" (Acts 6). The disciples watched Jesus ascend directly into the clouds before their eyes. The famous evangelical theologian Lewis Sperry Chafer argued that angels are physical beings. Why then don't we see them by every day, or by mechanical instruments? Because God hides them from our detection except when He chooses to unveil heaven, as He did for Stephen.


You know what? I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt because I simply can’t believe that you misunderstood my simple statement. I’ll assume you know how to read. I’ll just assume you didn’t read it.
 
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JAL

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Well, Steen, you deserve a lot of credit for you next comment. This next statement of yours definitely raises my esteem for you. You wrote:


jal said:
You say that I should take a course in physics to learn the cause of gravity. There is no scientifically established "cause" of gravity. Some scientific people are candid enough to admit that they don't know what causes it.
Steenl said:
And yet, there is quite a bit of research into it.

Here you seem to be conceding the possibility that the ultimate cause of gravity hasn’t been established. If this is the way you feel, it reflects an impressive integrity and humility that I wasn’t aware of, and you deserve my apologies for misevaluating you.
 
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JAL

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And yet, you have absolutely NO evidence that what the Bible describes is gravity.
If by lack of evidence you mean “lack of biblical evidence” that fact is too obvious too debate. As far as scientific evidence, I am looking at the same amount of data as scientists but I interpret it differently. I feel I have a right to my opinion if I am not contradicting the evidence. Like I said, an object in freefall doesn’t care whose doing the pushing, whether it be a “force” called “gravity” or the hand of God. The numbers remain the same, so I’m not contradicting the quantitative results of physics.


Second, in this forum many science-minded people accuse we literalists of trying to read science into the Bible, and call us hyprocritical for this.I’ve dealt with that objection, and I’m not going to keep repeating myself. But I’ll say it again. I have to reconcile ALL the data including (1) Science (2) God’s voice and (3) Scripture. These domains intersect. That’s not hypocrisy but wisdom. I’m just trying to avoid contradictions. I would be a fool to do otherwise – and frankly, so would you, if you believe in all three of the above, as I do.

This is your personal INTERPRETATION.
Yes, yes, yes, much of what I say is just my personal interpretation. How many times do I have to keep repeating that? But you know what? I’ll stand by my opinion until someone shows me a better reconciliation of ALL the data (domains 1, 2, and 3).


And you also have completely ignored the scientific work on gravity and then claim that there isn't any. That's downright dishonest.
You’re right that I’m overly presumptuous there, but I’ve discussed this with some very scientific people on these forums who agree that gravity has no established cause. To me it just seems like common sense, as follows. Sitting in front of you are two objects. They’re just sitting there! Why should there be any “pull” between them? Again, you have a point, I’ve become too presumptuous about my opinion on this. Nonetheless, I stand by my metaphysics until someone produces a more convincing one.
 
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JAL

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JAl said:
You will have difficulty defining the biblical miracles, logically, as something other than God as a physical pushing, pulling, or contorting matter.



Steen said:
Why do we need to define or prove the physics of miracles?
The very fact that you ask this question utterly impugns the credibility of your epistemological stance. Can anyone make sense of this question? What am I missing here? Why isn’t it obvious to you that we have to take ALL the data into account, we have to be vigilant in looking for any possible contradictions in our conclusions, we cannot afford to leave any stone unturned, if time and conscience permit. Why so? Because we’re dealing with eternity – that’s about as serious as things can get.


 
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JAL

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So you admit that your position is solely based on imagination, then?
It’s based on reconciliation – and you’d be wise to attempt the same.

Got a question for you. Let’s suppose you knew that an object’s inertia was overcome and thereby the object was relocated. And you were able to rule out the usual “forces” as the cause (such as gravity and magnetism) as well as the hands of God, devils, and angels, as well as any similar "forces" (as yet undiscovered).

What would be the scientific conclusion? Would you conclude that the object took wings and flew? What would be the cause? And by the way, if I develop the impression that you are hesitating on this question, I'll simply conclude that you are not as confident about your metaphysics, espistemology, and scientific method as you think you are.

Tell you what. I'll make it easy for you. If you think there are two possible answers (although I don't see how), just narrow it down to two. Can you do that, such that we can say, scientifically (and/or theologically) that it is definitely one of the two? Obviously I don't mean, "An alien moved it." I am just looking for a general type of cause, show me how a scientist (I suppose in this case a Christian one) would approach this problem.
 
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JAL

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I wrote: “Genesis subsided His creational activity.”

You replied:
Did it now? What scripture are you basing THAT on?
I am astonished that you can even ask this. If you mean by this question, “I don’t see any biblical basis for this?” then I can only imagine you have never read the Bible even once. I haven’t read it much, but I have read it at least once. Again, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. I’ll assume that what you really mean is, “There are some biblical verses that suggest such, but they don’t really prove your point.” In that case - Agreed, it’s just my opinion of the text, and some noted scholars agree.


The basic text is Genesis 2:

Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made.

This theme is taken up again in Hebrews:


Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. ..Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

Faith has existed since creation. This suggests that He is still in His Rest (rest from the act of creating) and we merely enter into it. The text continues:

As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works;
Heb 4:5 and in this place again, They shall not enter into my rest.
 
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JAL

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Steen, I privately sent you the question of post 72 in a private message, and your response was basically that "nothing can be deduced because there is no evidence." I wasn't asking for a definite conclusion. I was asking for a likely cause. You're really making this too complicated. You called me a coward, but the reality is that your reticence inclines me to feel that about you.

Let's not make it so complicated. If you set a dinner plate on the table at night, and the next day it's at the opposite end of the table, how would a scientist approach the question? Sorry, your answer, "That's not evidence" essentially would paralyze science. It couldn't move forward because, apparently for you, nothing counts as evidence, based on your reply to me privately. It sounds to me like you are just trying to evade the question. Not surprising.

A response more consonant with your scientific disposition, I would imagine (and this is all I was really looking for) is that you would be inclined to suspect a physical impetus of some kind (such as a human hand, or a wind), moved the plate accross the table. That's all I was looking for, and this simple question hardly justifies the hyperbolic insults that you threw at me in the private message, calling me an Idiot, Liar, and a Coward, for asking this simple question. So this is the kind of debater you are? Haven't looked at your profile. Are you married? Wonder if you would respond to your wife the same way, or a girlfriend, had she asked you that same question?

If you want to insult me, fine, but I hardly see the justification, in this case. You implied, "Oh that' s just an underhanded question showing how deceitful you are." Ummm...No. Debates operate by asking what the other party's assumptions are. For example, Gluadys asked me how I define literalism. I could have said, "You are just trying to disprove me. That makes you an Idiot, Liar, and a Coward." No. On another thread, I finally got around to answering the question. I know she's just trying to disprove me. Duh! That's why they call it a debate! You too, have asked me questions. The mere askance does not make you a Liar, Idiot, and a Coward. Or is that how you see yourself, for having asked these questions?

I'll say more on the dinner plate in a moment.




 
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JAL

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By the way Steen, I should inform you of something, because both you and Gluadys labor under the misconception that my whole theology is a knee-jerk reaction to science. Nothing can be further from the truth. My materialistic ontology was developed about 20 years ago, and it was quite some time before I began to suspect that God is gravity. My materialism had nothing to do with science at the outset, and certainly nothing to do with the Book of Genesis. I was dealing with the debate between charismatics and cessationists. Period. Here’s how it began.

About 20 years ago a Pentecostal theologian named Howard Ervin wrote a book called Conversion-Initiation and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. In this book was an essay (I still have most of it memorized, after 20 years) called called “Excursus on a World View.” In this essay Ervin debates whether materialistic verses can be taken literally, such as “Unless you eat my flesh, and drink my blood, you have no life in you.” What he is saying is that if you’ve experienced the Holy Spirit tangibly (for example physically stirring your voice box with the gift of tongues), your metaphysics begins to cry out for a revision because this, my friend, is somewhat like a dinner plate relocated to the other end of the table – it is similar to what scientists call “evidence.” This is what Ervin wrote:


Excursus on a World View

An experiential encounter with the charismata of the Holy Spirit presents a disturbing challenge to prior theological categories predicated upon an implicit dichotomy between Spirit and matter. The result is frequently a reorientation away from a rationalistic (Platonic!) metaphysics and toward a sacramental realism. It is this existential dimension that it makes it difficult to find a common ground with a propositinally conceived antisacramental metaphysics…In a Spirit/matter continuum, water, wine, and bread, may indeed become sacramental modalities of the divine Presence…The dichotomy in the antisacramentalist’s paradigm reduces divine activity in the natural order to a subjective immanence. The objective presence and activity of God are either explained away as a dispensational once-and-for-all, or projected into the suprahistorical consciousness of the community, or denied altogether. It is at this point that the Pentecostal shares a common ground with the sacramentalist, because the phenomenology of the Pentecostal experience precludes quantifying reality into discontinuous spheres of Spirit and matter…(Howard Ervin, “Excursus on a World View”).

Elsewhere in the book Ervin said that a wholly immaterialist, spiritualistic understanding of God "has more to do with Plato than with Paul."
 
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steen

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WHy should I care what you say? You have long ago shown a lack of inclination to take anything serious, and only posts to "get" the other side. have fun in your narcissistic pursuit of superiority. I can't be bothered with those who can't honestly and openly debate. I relegate you to the crowd of the typical, dishonest creationist and leave it at that.
 
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JAL

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steen said:
WHy should I care what you say? You have long ago shown a lack of inclination to take anything serious, and only posts to "get" the other side. have fun in your narcissistic pursuit of superiority. I can't be bothered with those who can't honestly and openly debate. I relegate you to the crowd of the typical, dishonest creationist and leave it at that.
Only trying to "get the other side"? Go back and take a look. I've rarely seen anyone so hostile as you in a forum. From my very first post you were attacking with all your might. I have said that Gluadys annoys me, but she's very polite to me rather than brutally hostile.

You don't have to reply. But your worldview is biased, it's hyperscientific, you seem to have lost the ability to raise the broader questions of metaphysics. You're too narrowminded. The basic logic underlying my theory of God-as-gravity is God as Physical Mass, and I'm going to show how biased, how philosophically naiive, how narrowminded, and how unscriptural was the premature, cavilier way that you dismissed this theory of God as Physical Mass.
 
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JAL

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Let’s get back to the dinner plate. I stated that the likely cause of the dinner plates’ translocation from one end of the table to the other is a material impetus such as a human hand, or a wind blowing, or something such, according to the nature of the question posed at my posts #72 and #74. Let’s refer to this simple idea of a “material impetus as cause” as the Impetus Assumption.


One of the material objects in the world that often relocates is the human body. Suppose I walk up to you and punch you in the face. My fist relocated from an innocuous position to your face. What would you blame? Me. My soul. After all, what moved my hand? If you reply, “Well, that’s just muscular energy produced from my food, it’s not the soul’s fault.” Then, in that case, only the food is to blame, and my soul is exonerated. Obviously your anger would not be toward the food. You would be angry with ME. And the same with the Lord. The Lord wouldn’t say, “I cannot punish him, it’s the food’s fault.” Or, “It’s the fault of his muscles, not of his soul.” No. The Lord would blame ME. Therefore the soul must be the cause of my hand’s movement. Now I won’t deny that the process of punching you might begin in the brain before extending into the hand, but in that case the soul is the cause of the cerebral catalyst, the movements (synapses) in the brain. Given how the Impetus Assumption looks to a material impetus, we may therefore conclude that the soul is a physical mass, or at least manifests with like properties. Now in Scripture (including the Greek Old Testament), a term commonly used for the soul, the inner man, is the term “pneuma” often translated “spirit.” Now it’s important to note that this is the same Greek term used for the Holy Spirit. Do you see the parallel? If the human pneuma is a physical mass that pushes matter, what ought we to expect of the divine Pneuma? Steen, this flies in the face of both your claims, namely, (1) that my conclusions have no basis in scientific method and (2) that my conclusions have no basis in Scripture. After all, if you want to say your conclusions about God are “better” then hold yourself to the same standards. Show me how it can be demonstrated from Scripture and science (criteria 1 and 2) above that God does NOT manifest as a Physical Mass. That’s going to be difficult, when I show you the rest of the biblical evidence to the contrary. It is not fair to be biased one way or the other. You accuse creationists of bias? I accuse you of metaphysical bias. Show me you EVIDENCE for your counterthesis. Otherwise it’s just a bunch of bias, if the real standard of truth, as you suggest, is evidence.

I have more evidence that the soul is physical, but I don’t plan to cover all that here. I will focus on God manifest as Physical Mass.
 
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JAL

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When Moses came down from the mountain, his face was shining with God’s Light. How do we know the Light was physical? Because Moses was able to use a physical veil to restrain it. If the Light were intangible, it could not collide with, and thus not be restrained by, the facial veil. This same Light physically lasered Paul’s eyes blind on the road to Damascus. He was physically blind for three days and when God healed him, miraculously, physical scales fell from his eyes. All of that is documented in Scripture. But also important are the following facts. When a person sees a vision of heaven, one way for God to do this is to simply shine light into his eyes in a pattern akin to those light patterns reflecting off ordinary physical objects. When Stephen saw a vision of heaven, it is notable that at that time the Light of God was visibly shining in his face. He saw a vision because he was seeing Light. But since heaven is “up there”, he didn’t see it until he looked directly up into the sky. Paul saw Christ on the Road to Damascus. How? He saw Light. And it “shone around him” environmentally, even as for the shepherds in the field, the Light “shone around them” environmentally. In the prison it was dark until God’s Light shone in Peter’s cell environmentally.
When James, Peter, and John were watching the Transfiguration, they began to fall asleep. Their eyes were closing, as they drifted off. The NT tells us that as their eyes closed, they began to lose sight of the vision. When their eyes opened wide, they could see it again. Why? Because the Light was shining into their eyeballs. This is not the only way to produce visions, admittedly. God can bypass the eyeballs, during sleep, by stirring the brain, electrochemically, in the same way that ordinary light impacts the brain via the eyeballs. This would be a revelatory dream.



In the desert, the Pillar of Cloud changed to Fire every night. Why? To give Light to Israel in her travels. A cloud does not radiate light. However, fire radiates light. If God were performing this miracle “magically”, there would be no need to change to Fire, He would simply speak, and there you have it – light! No. Every single night He changed to Fire, as to radiate light, environmentally.

1Kings Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Why did the Fire descend into that locale? Was this miracle a case of magic from afar? Or physical manipulation from proximity? Surely the latter. Another example. In Genesis, God appeared to Jacob and physically wrested with him all night long. Jacob walked away with a limp and concluded, “I have seen God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
 
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JAL

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Now let’s turn our attention to the Red Sea. An observer, in Moses’ day, would have seen it divide into two pillars of water between which Israel marched through. Now what does this suggest? According to our Impetus Assumption, it suggests that a material agent pushed the waters apart. And that’s exactly what Moses tells us. A steady wind gradually blew the waters apart “all night long.” But here’ s where it gets really interesting. The Hebrew word used here for Wind is Ruach, the same Hebrew word used for “Holy Spirit” throughout the OT. And the Greek OT uses Pneuma here, which is the NT word used for “Holy Spirit.” Secondly, Moses tells us that this Wind was actually Breath from God’s nostrils. We find a very interesting verse in Psalms. “By the word of the Lord were heavens shaped, the starry hosts by the breath of his mouth.” Again, it’s the same Hebrew word, and the same Greek word (Pneuma). This last verse is important because, when you speak, you exhale breath. Read the verse again, and you’ll see how God formed the earth in Genesis. Remember that the “the Pneuma of God hovered over the waters” (Gen 1:2). Why? Because the Lord was speaking things like, “Let the earth produce plants,” and, in so doing, He exhales Breath. He “sends forth His Pneuma, and they are created.” And of course it is very common to find wind hovering over the surface of waters. Thus God speaks and so it is – magically? No. He exhales His Breath, and His breath goes forth to do the work. Let’s have that verse again: . “By the word of the Lord were heavens shaped, the starry hosts by the breath of his mouth.” Notice it says that the heavens were “shaped” (molded). According to the Impetus Assumption, we are led to suspect a material impetus. The verse doesn’t disappoint us it, because it tells us the heavens were shaped by “the breath of his mouth.” Conceivably, if the Breath could push apart the waters of the Red Sea, as Moses stated, it could mold and shape the earth.

Do you know why they heard the sound of a mighty rushing wind on Pentecost? The normal translation is this. “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit.” That’s not quite accurate. “They were all filled with the Holy Wind/Breath.” Earlier Jesus had told them, “The Pneuma blows where it pleases, you hear its sound, but you know not from whence it comes or where it goes. So it is with everyone born of the Pneuma" (Jn 3:8)
Friend, you heard wind blowing when He first touched your heart, albeit too faintly to notice it. Did you know that Job had bad breath? Did you know that, for Job’s bad breath, the Hebrew text uses the same word used for the Holy Spirit? And likewise the Greek OT text?


At John 20:22, Jesus imparted the Holy Breath to the Twelve by physically exhaling. Exhalation is a physical impetus.
Again the same principle at John 20:22, “And He breathed on them, and said, “Receive the Holy Breath.” The Greek word is Pneuma. Thomas Oden said the proper translation is Holy Breath. Do you know who Thomas Oden is? He wrote a very special kind of Systematic Theology, apparently unprecedented in type. He’s quite famous for it. What he did was to create a report of the main conclusions drawn in complete consensus among all classical biblical scholars of mainstream Christianity. It’s that famous report that so translates John 20:22. Thomas Oden is not denying that this passage is referring to the Holy Spirit (Third Person). He is simply pointing out that Holy Breath is an accepted translation. He argued that the idea of God’s spoken Word as exhaled Breath is unmistakably present in Scripture. At John 20:22, Jesus imparted the Holy Breath to the Twelve by physically exhaling. Exhalation is a physical impetus. Did you know that Job had bad breath? Did you know that, for Job’s bad breath, the Hebrew text uses the same word used for the Holy Spirit? And likewise the Greek OT text?





 
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