Fear of the 'divine'.

[Imagican]

When reading through the Bible, something I have noticed that many seem to miss: in almost every 'encounter' of that which we label 'divine', those enduring the experience are described as being 'fearful'.

My own experience with God revealing Himself 'to me' was no different. The overwhelming sensation was not some form of ecstasy, but FEAR. It was 'terrifying'. Not painful. But kind of like being 'shocked' by electricity.

Someone that has simply 'used' electricity doesn't really have any comprehension of it's 'power' until being 'shocked' by it. But once one has been 'shocked' by it, their previous perception is not longer valid. Everyone I have ever known, once 'shocked' by electricity develop a 'fear' of it that is completely different than their perception previous to being 'shocked'.

It is this way with God so far as I'm concerned.

So what is this demonstration of 'ecstasy' that we often 'see' in the 'churches'? I have never experienced it. I have never 'felt' like I was 'on a drug' when praying to singing in a 'church'. Yet I have witnessed those with hands raised to the heavens in what appears to be a 'state of ecstasy'. Like they are in a 'trance' of sorts. What is this?

Not only have I never experienced it personally, I have never even 'read' about it in the Bible.

Every encounter with the "Divine" offered in the Bible is associated with 'dropping to one's knees in FEAR'. I don't recall anyone ever describing such an encounter as being 'overwhelmed' by pleasant sensations. Ecstasy or becoming 'trance-like' enveloped in a 'drug like' experience.

So what is it that we witness when we 'see' those that appear to be 'drugged' into an ecstatic state in the 'churches'?

I know this: the Bible describes 'Satan' as being 'sensual'. That means that he appeals to the 'senses' and obviously it would be an appealing to the senses in a 'pleasurable' manner. You know, like making to 'feel good'.

So is it possible that it is 'this' that is witnessed in the 'churches'. An entity 'other than God' that offers 'sensation' rather than 'fear'?

For if you read the Bible, you will find exactly what I'm talking bout 'over and over' again. Those that encounter the 'divine' are instantly filled with 'FEAR', not 'ecstasy'. They are so fearful they 'fall down upon their knees' with their faces and eyes to the 'ground'. They aren't 'looking up' with their hands in the air filled with a form of ecstasy. They are 'terrified' when in the presence of the 'divine'.

Just some thoughts about the 'truth' contained within the Bible versus what we witness in the 'churches'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Hieronymus]

So what is this demonstration of 'ecstasy' that we often 'see' in the 'churches'?

Misleading spirits or self inflicted i.m.h.o.

 

[hedrick]

I agree that (primarily in the OT) fear was the reaction when seeing God. But there are also instances of ecstatic response. See e.g. 2 Sam 6:5 or Ex 15:20. Those don't seem to be associated with the same kind of direct experience of God's presence that produced fear.

In the NT, of course, Jesus becomes God's face. So communion with him gives us an access that doesn't involve quite the same fear as a direct experience of God. Similarly, experience of the Holy Spirit can be ecstatic, such as the first Pentecost. Then there are "visions and revelations," as in 2 Cor 12:1.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The word fear used in the OT primarily comes from the word yirah which means "awe" or "reverence". Of course it would be well pleasing fro Satan to have people believe that they should fear God as if some terrible tyrant but those that truly know God, anxiety producing terror is not part of our relationship but rather a deep respect and humbling before Him.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I think you have misinterpreted what I have stated or indicated.

I do not 'fear' electricity as some form of 'tyrant'. I fear electricity for the knowledge of what it 'can do'. It's 'power'.

If you believe 'all' you would experience if you 'came into contact' with God or His Son, direct contact, is some form of 'respect' or merely being 'humbled', then you haven't even really considered such an event.

I can assure you, what you are referring to is from the perspective of 'merely believing'. But I can assure you, if you 'knew', you would have a completely 'different' understanding.

In essence, you are trying to insinuate that when God revealed Himself to me, it was not God, but Satan. All you have revealed is your ignorance and inability to accept that someone else has had an experience that 'obviously', you haven't.

No one can 'see' God and live. That is what the Bible says.

Is this something God decided to make 'law' or is it something that is unavoidable? In other words, is the 'reason' that we 'cannot see God and live' due to God just wanting to 'hide Himself' or is it something 'physical'. Could it be that the 'glory of God' is so powerful that for us to get 'close' enough to actually see His physical form, it would destroy the 'flesh'? You know, kind of like being 'too close' to the 'Sun' or some other form of 'energy'?

Now, if the answer is something even close to what I have offered, it is not merely a 'law' instituted by God, but something that is 'literally' impossible without destruction, we cannot 'see' God without being 'destroyed' by the 'power' of His glory, do you suppose that if you came in contact with the 'glory of God' your reaction immediately before being 'consumed' by His glory would be one of 'humility or respect'?

No, you would be terrified for whatever 'time' you had before being 'consumed'.

Satan wouldn't offer terror as the 'emotion' one experienced when being introduced to his influence. That would serve absolutely 'no purpose' in fulfilling his agenda. People that were 'terrified' of Satan wouldn't worship him 'as God'. They would 'flee'. So your attempted alteration of the 'truth' is obviously contrary to any semblance of the 'truth'.

You are 'incorrect'. If what you have offered is 'true', then that means that every offering in the Bible concerning 'fear' is 'incorrect'. I offer that the odds are that 'you' are incorrect and the Bible 'is' correct. Those chosen to translate the Bible knew at least as much as you do, (most likely MUCH more), they were fluent in Greek and were 'professors' of theology.

We are to serve in 'fear and trembling'. What does 'trembling' have to do with respect or humility? Respect and trembling? Humility and trembling? Come now, you don't really believe that the word 'fear' means merely 'respect and humility'. If that were the 'case', why didn't the interpreters offer it? Why not offer 'respect and humility' rather than 'fear and trembling'?

God is 'not' a terrible tyrant except to those that chose to follow a contrary path. And even then He is not a 'terrible tyrant'. He is a 'loving and just' God. He is our Heavenly Father. But I can assure you that if you were to somehow come into His very presence, your entire understanding and perception would be 'changed'. You too would 'drop' to your knees in 'fear and trembling'. You would certainly not be filled with euphoria and ecstasy I guarantee you. You would be terrified to be in the presence of the literal 'power of God'. Just the recognition of being in the presence of a God who knows your every sin would be terrifying. Being in the presence of a God who has the power to completely consume you would cause intense terror. And if you have yet to experience it, you have 'no idea'.

The 'translators' of the Bible into English did not use the words respect or humility. They used the words 'fear and trembling'. I would say that you would fare far better 'listening' than trying to 'alter'.

Blessings,

MEC

Ummmm... I wasn't referring to your experience, I was commenting on the fact that many, many people that have rejected God have done so on a erroneous belief that He is to be FEARED and if you don't, you get punished like the stories in the OT. Of course it is not a reality of who God is.... sorry if I offended you by my comment.

 

[Stillicidia]

Fear of the Lord is a fear of hurting him.

 

[Inkfingers]

The fear of God is a fear that brings us to him rather than drives us away from him.

 

[Stillicidia]

The fear of god being fear of hurting him is the full picture.

The fear of his voice is just plain fear.

The fear of the lord, and plain stinking fear, are two different things.
One would cause you to turn away, and run.

 

[Stillicidia]

.

 

[tucker58]

Paul didn't 'turn away and run'.

His encounter and the 'fear' that accompanied it changed his 'life'. And I can assure you that coming in actual contact with Christ accusing Paul of persecuting him had to include some 'SERIOUS' fear. Being 'blinded' for days had to be accompanied with some 'SERIOUS' fear.

When Moses encountered the 'burning bush', do you suppose that there was some 'fear' involved? Put yourself in his place and see if you can imagine what you would experience.

Do you suppose that David 'feared' God? How about when God took his first son? Or when he was given a choice between being King and choosing the death of his people?

I would offer this: if you have 'come in actual contact with an entity that you 'think' is God, and had 'no fear', you probably weren't in contact with what you thought you were.

I 'do know this', when God revealed Himself to me, it was terrifying.

I'll offer this as an example. Ever skydived? Ridden a 'roller coaster'? Been shocked by electricity?

When one is 'free falling', unless they have experienced many many times, it's is terrifying........at first. When a 'roller coaster 'drops' straight down, it is terrifying...............at first. When you get shocked by electricity it is terrifying..............at first.

When the 'sensation' can't be determined, it is terrifying. In other words, when you don't 'know' when it is going to 'end', it is terrifying. Kind of like 'pain'. Once it's over, it isn't as bad as we thought it was. Part of what makes pain so 'painful' is not 'knowing' when it is going to 'end'. Once it's over, it's never as 'bad' as it was when we didn't 'know' when it was going to end.

It was 'like this' when God revealed Himself to 'me'. When it was 'over', it was just a memory. But as it took place, it was terrifying.

And folks, if you actually realize that God has the power to judge you according to 'death', you too will 'fear God'. As long as you pretend or 'make believe' that God is just an 'idea', you can imagine whatever you choose. But when God actually reveals Himself to you, I can assure you there will be 'fear and trembling'.

It's like death. As long as you 'pretend' you aren't going to die, it has no 'power'. But the moment you stop pretending you are 'going to fear' the unknown. You age going to 'fear' death. Unless, of course, you WANT to die.

Once again, I would 'bet' that most instances in the Bible where someone 'drops' to their knees when in the presence of the 'divine', it is not by 'choice'. They 'lost' control of their ability to stand and fell to their knees INVOLUNTARILY. They did 'not' have a choice. When they were told to 'rise', that was the 'divine' assuring them that they 'could'. Not permission, but acknowledgement that they could resume control of their body.

I know, most can't comprehend what I'm speaking of. Unless you have experienced it, how could you 'know'? And that leads to the question: 'why haven't you experienced what I'm speaking of'? Have you 'ever' asked God to reveal Himself? Or are you satisfied with having 'faith' in something you do not 'know'? In other words, it's one thing to 'believe' in something, it's another to actually 'know' something. And wouldn't one's faith be increased or at least given a proper foundation by 'knowing' God rather than simply 'believing' that God exists? And simply 'believing' God exists offers no security in the 'God' you believe exists is 'the' God. For men have 'believed' in gods since time began. But most believed in 'false gods'.

Blessings,

MEC

Well Imagican, here we go again

I have been a Christian mystic for over sixty years now and I have experienced what you are talking about. And like you I too have questioned the why of it. God scares the living daylights out of me, He just flat terrifies me! And the only way that I was able to over come that tremendous fear was when Lord Jesus invited me to take His hand and I did. When I took the hand of Lord Jesus in the presence of God, God became the most beautiful loving entity that could ever grace existence. It was like night and day. It turns out that the only way that you can be in the presence of God without experiencing overwhelming fear is if you have a totally humble loving heart. If you have a totally humble loving heart, then being in the presence of God is not fearful in any way. I don't so the only way that I can be in the presence of God without being terrified is to take the hand of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. I admit it .

Why the fear? Because being in the presence of a "profoundly" powerful force with a conscious mind that exists in a reality the is "totally" beyond comprehension in a "profound" way is terrifying to anyone who has any sanity what so ever. And this is with the understanding that anyone with a totally humble loving heart would not be considered sane in the normal sense of the word "sanity" .

And like Stillisidia said, at least when Lord Jesus is present, God is so loving and beautiful that your only fear is hurting Him, if you are inclined toward having a loving compassionate heart. And if you don't, then you are inclined to try to figure out how to take advantage of Him. Which in the long run, will be fatal.

 

[Stillicidia]

Well Imagican, here we go again

I have been a Christian mystic for over sixty years now and I have experienced what you are talking about. And like you I too have questioned the why of it. God scares the living daylights out of me, He just flat terrifies me! And the only way that I was able to over come that tremendous fear was when Lord Jesus invited me to take His hand and I did. When I took the hand of Lord Jesus in the presence of God, God became the most beautiful loving entity that could ever grace existence. It was like night and day. It turns out that the only way that you can be in the presence of God without experiencing overwhelming fear is if you have a totally humble loving heart. If you have a totally humble loving heart, then being in the presence of God is not fearful in any way. I don't so the only way that I can be in the presence of God without being terrified is to take the hand of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. I admit it .

Why the fear? Because being in the presence of a "profoundly" powerful force with a conscious mind that exists in a reality the is "totally" beyond comprehension in a "profound" way is terrifying to anyone who has any sanity what so ever. And this is with the understanding that anyone with a totally humble loving heart would not be considered sane in the normal sense of the word "sanity" .

And like Stillisidia said, at least when Lord Jesus is present, God is so loving and beautiful that your only fear is hurting Him, if you are inclined toward having a loving compassionate heart. And if you don't, then you are inclined to try to figure out how to take advantage of Him. Which in the long run, will be fatal.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When reading through the Bible, something I have noticed that many seem to miss: in almost every 'encounter' of that which we label 'divine', those enduring the experience are described as being 'fearful'.

My own experience with God revealing Himself 'to me' was no different. The overwhelming sensation was not some form of ecstasy, but FEAR. It was 'terrifying'. Not painful. But kind of like being 'shocked' by electricity.

Someone that has simply 'used' electricity doesn't really have any comprehension of it's 'power' until being 'shocked' by it. But once one has been 'shocked' by it, their previous perception is not longer valid. Everyone I have ever known, once 'shocked' by electricity develop a 'fear' of it that is completely different than their perception previous to being 'shocked'.

It is this way with God so far as I'm concerned.

So what is this demonstration of 'ecstasy' that we often 'see' in the 'churches'? I have never experienced it. I have never 'felt' like I was 'on a drug' when praying to singing in a 'church'. Yet I have witnessed those with hands raised to the heavens in what appears to be a 'state of ecstasy'. Like they are in a 'trance' of sorts. What is this?

Not only have I never experienced it personally, I have never even 'read' about it in the Bible.

Every encounter with the "Divine" offered in the Bible is associated with 'dropping to one's knees in FEAR'. I don't recall anyone ever describing such an encounter as being 'overwhelmed' by pleasant sensations. Ecstasy or becoming 'trance-like' enveloped in a 'drug like' experience.

So what is it that we witness when we 'see' those that appear to be 'drugged' into an ecstatic state in the 'churches'?

I know this: the Bible describes 'Satan' as being 'sensual'. That means that he appeals to the 'senses' and obviously it would be an appealing to the senses in a 'pleasurable' manner. You know, like making to 'feel good'.

So is it possible that it is 'this' that is witnessed in the 'churches'. An entity 'other than God' that offers 'sensation' rather than 'fear'?

For if you read the Bible, you will find exactly what I'm talking bout 'over and over' again. Those that encounter the 'divine' are instantly filled with 'FEAR', not 'ecstasy'. They are so fearful they 'fall down upon their knees' with their faces and eyes to the 'ground'. They aren't 'looking up' with their hands in the air filled with a form of ecstasy. They are 'terrified' when in the presence of the 'divine'.

Just some thoughts about the 'truth' contained within the Bible versus what we witness in the 'churches'.

Blessings,

MEC

Question:

I have sincerely sought the 'truth' for many many years now.

When I have visited 'churches', each does things 'differently'.

How is that? How are two 'churches' following the 'truth' yet doing it in completely 'different ways'?

If there is only 'one truth', if God desires that we serve Him in a 'particular way', how do different people serve Him 'differently' in 'truth'?

You see, this makes absolutely 'no sense'. We cannot each follow a 'different path' and follow 'the path'. The path is THE path. Only one. Yet there are many 'different paths' that lead to destruction. Only ONE path that leads to 'truth'.

So, if the Holy Spirit dwells with me, isn't it the 'same Holy Spirit' that would dwell in any or everyone else? And if it is the 'same' how does it reveal a 'different understanding' to different people? Impossible. What it reveals to one would be the same that it reveals to another. While it may reveal more or something deeper to one than another, whatever it reveals, if it is the 'truth' would have to be 'the same truth'.

Blessings,

MEC

I was going to answer the OP, then after 'quoting' getting to this 'reply' box saw the last post.

You have observed correctly is the apparent conclusion, and sadly it is the state of things.

Not much can be said here though about this.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Did you happen to notice in Acts, Ephesians, Philippians, Hebrews, and Matthew, Mark , Luke and John, the JOY the true disciples had along with PEACE and RIGHTEOUSNESS?
Seen only in a few places on earth TODAY.

 

[tucker58]

Yet in reference to God, if He is 'truth'. Then that 'truth' cannot be altered or compromised. One either understands the 'truth' or they don't. There are not more than 'one' truth. Perhaps 'deeper' truth, but what ever 'truth' God reveals it is revealed in the exact same manner to all who it is revealed. Truth is "NOT" relative to God. It is 'static' or it doesn't exist. It is certainly not as dynamic as many would attempt to insist. If so, then no one could actually place any faith in Him for the fact that there would be nothing concrete to be able to place one's faith in.

Imagican , you seem to be trying to get others to agree with your fear. Obviously you have never actually met God. You got as far as "your" fear and then quit. And now you seem to be using your gift at verbal logic to get others to to quit also. Others to lose "faith" in Something that they can not understand and may never understand. And Imagican, you are so far a head of everybody else that nobody can keep up with you . You are very gifted.

How about this just for fun? In the Lord's Prayer we are incouraged by our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus to request "God" to not lead us into temptation. How come that is not a part of your OP question? After all it dovetails nicely into the argument that you are presenting in this topic. Because if we are lead to ask "God" to not lead us into temptation, then obviously leading one into temptation is something He can and might do. Would that not be another reason to fear Him? Imagican you are using all of these arguments to cause folks to question God, the Holy Scripture, and the Christian Faith when you only need one argument. To me it is just another reason to fear God and to stay humble before Him. But you don't fear God or have the need to stay humble before Him. Because, God has no power over you in your life. You have no need to be concerned about "God" tempting you because He has no power over you and you can do and say whatever you want to. Is that a temptation created by "God" to lead you into believing something that is not real?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

@tucker58 you quoted:
"Imagican said:
Yet in reference to God, if He is 'truth'. Then that 'truth' cannot be altered or compromised. One either understands the 'truth' or they don't. There are not more than 'one' truth. Perhaps 'deeper' truth, but what ever 'truth' God reveals it is revealed in the exact same manner to all who it is revealed. Truth is "NOT" relative to God. It is 'static' or it doesn't exist. It is certainly not as dynamic as many would attempt to insist. If so, then no one could actually place any faith in Him for the fact that there would be nothing concrete to be able to place one's faith in."

And this that Imagican said is true, especially as the BIBLE says, what is underlined.

Where do you think or get that he is trying to promote fear here ?

 

[tucker58]

@tucker58 you quoted:
"Imagican said:
Yet in reference to God, if He is 'truth'. Then that 'truth' cannot be altered or compromised. One either understands the 'truth' or they don't. There are not more than 'one' truth. Perhaps 'deeper' truth, but what ever 'truth' God reveals it is revealed in the exact same manner to all who it is revealed. Truth is "NOT" relative to God. It is 'static' or it doesn't exist. It is certainly not as dynamic as many would attempt to insist. If so, then no one could actually place any faith in Him for the fact that there would be nothing concrete to be able to place one's faith in."

And this that Imagican said is true, especially as the BIBLE says, what is underlined.

Where do you think or get that he is trying to promote fear here ?

I was the one promoting fear Jeff not Imagican. He was presenting the idea that one should question a "God" that demands that one fear Him. And he questioned why when he approached "God" that he was caused to feel fear. Personally I find his questions valid because I had the same questions and I had the same experience. I don't anymore because as long as Lord Jesus is present when I approach "God" all is well and everything goes fine. The moral of the story is that we as Christians have a gift through our Beloved Lord and Savior when it comes to approaching "God" should one wish to. The other non Christian religions do not have that gift. They have to do it the hard way . I couldn't do it the hard way and when Lord Jesus invited me to take His hand and everything changed I understood the awesomeness of having Lord Jesus as one's representive in Heaven and before "God" and as one's Lord and Master. Is all.

About what you have underlined in your post Jeff, you can not use logic when it comes to understanding "God" and you can not use this world's knowledge when it comes to understanding "God". Because, He does not think like we do. Which is why "faith" comes in to play. You have "faith" in "Something" that is totally beyond understanding relative to the understanding of this world. "Truth is not as dynamic as many would attempt to insist." Yes it is Jeff. Because, we all have had different experiences and these experiences are what make us what we are and how we understand things. So each person has to be approached differently in the path to understanding. Which makes things dynamic. Is there one universal truth? Sure, the one "universal truth" is that there is no "universal truth". But the problem is that the human mind can not exist or function in that reality . "God's" mind does, but our minds need set pattern foundations that it can consider real, set in stone. And without some set pattern foundations to anchor one, one will feel intence fear and if things continue they will go stark raving mad. I can exist in the mind of "God" because I have reached the point where I understand that there is no "universal truth" and I am ok with that. But I never could have done that without the help of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

Jeff, yes you are a slave to Yeshua, but you are not a slave to "God", because you can not exist in His pure world without going stark raving mad. And that is ok, I am a slave to Lord Jesus also, I owe Him everything.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Correct: that IS the point IN what is underlined in the previous post as you also quoted: "you cannot use logic.... this world's knowledge...."

About what you have underlined in your post Jeff, you can not use logic when it comes to understanding "God" and you can not use this world's knowledge when it comes to understanding "God". Because, He does not think like we do.

 

[tucker58]

Correct: that IS the point IN what is underlined in the previous post as you also quoted: "you cannot use logic.... this world's knowledge...."

OK

 

[tucker58]

Correct: that IS the point IN what is underlined in the previous post as you also quoted: "you cannot use logic.... this world's knowledge...."

About truth just for fun. Did you know that you can create a balanced energy matrix with your conscious mind that anchors the physical body to the balanced energy matrix of the Loving Divine? And that this balanced energy matrix is/can be nourished by the waters of life that has its source in Lord Jesus? Yep you can . Truth is like a mustard seed that grows into the biggest tree in the garden that is filled with an infinity of living things and their possibilities. The reason that there is not an "Ultimate Truth" is because truth is constantly growing into something bigger. This world considers truth to be "static", to have set boundries somewhere. But truth is not "static", it is "dynamic" and it is constantly/eternally changing into something bigger and different than it was before.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Divine Comedy ?