Fallen Angels

[Paleouss]

As far as I know, the Scripure does not directly speak to who exactly these "evil spirits" are in the text. That is one reason I posted, to see if anyone has verses that I might consider.

It seams that 1Sam chpt 16,18,19, could be debated as either 'evil spirits' or a sickness/affliction. Both seem to have reasonable aurguments. I tend to go with 'evil spirits' but understand that the the other view may be possible.

I suppose that there could be some reasonable argument for Luke 7:21 being only sickness/affliction. It gives 3 conditions in vs21 that are cured; infirmities, afflictions, and evil spirits.

(Luke 7:21 NKJV)
And that very hour He cured many of infirmities [diseases ESV], afflictions [plagues ESV], and evil spirits; and to many blind He gave sight.

But then in vs22, Jesus gives a list of the account and does not mention anything that resembles 'evil spirits'.

(Luk 7:22 NKJV)
Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that [the] blind see, [the] lame walk, [the] lepers are cleansed, [the] deaf hear, [the] dead are raised, [the] poor have the gospel preached to them.

On the other hand, Matt 8:28-32 seems very clear that evil spirits are thought to be real. It gives an account of the actual casting out of these 'evil spirits' and presents a conversation with them between the spirits and Jesus.

(Mat 8:29 NKJV)
And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

My personal view at this moment is that these evil spirits are some of the fallen angels. A verse I use for this assertion is Hebrews 1:14

(Heb 1:14 NKJV)
Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

In Hebrews, the context refers to "angels" (Heb 1:13) as "spirits" (Heb 1:14). It would be reasonable to think, I believe, that if angels can also be referred to as spirits then evil/fallen angels can be referred to as evil spirits.

 

[Paleouss]

The spirits cast out of people are a certain kind of fallen angel. They are trespassers, living within people in order to manipulate the earth apart from God's will. People were given the earth, and thus, fallen spirits possessing people are trespassers.

RandyPNW, thank you for your thought out reply. I do have an inquiry into some of what you wrote. You wrote

"People were given the earth, and thus, fallen spirits possessing people are trespassers."

I agree that Adam (mankind) was given dominion over the earth by God (Gen 1:26,28). The way you wrote your response, I take it to mean that man still has dominion and fallen spirits are currently intruding upon that dominion. Do I have that correct?

Some hold, I being one, that mankind was given dominion over the earth and lost that dominion due to the fall. The current being that has dominion in this world, in my view, is Satan (2Cor 4:4). I believe that scripture presents two kingdoms, (1) the Kingdom of earth and (2) the Kingdom of God. This Kingdom of God storyline was established at creation (Gen 1:26,28), lost at the fall (Gen 3:24, John 12:3, Eph 2:2, 2Cor 4:4), prophesied throughout the OT (Gen 3:15, 22:18, 49:10; Sam 7:12-13; Dan 2:43-44, 7:13-14), currently present in spiritual form (Luke 17:20-21), and one day a physical reality on earth at the second coming of Jesus Christ (Rev 11:15).

One might question what this has to do with fallen angels, that is, my inquiry with you in this post regarding dominion. But I think it has a lot to do with it. In particular, why there are evil spirits here on earth.

Peace be to you and your family

 

[Paleouss]

I have been enjoying the "Lord of Spirits" podcast, given by two Orthodox priests, Fr. Stephen De Young and Fr. Andrew Steven Damick. I believe De Young takes view #2 with respect to the evil spirits of the New Testament.

Thank you for your podcast source.

 

[Paleouss]

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Your second one where demons are disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, is my belief.

Hi d taylor, good to see you again.

 

[eleos1954]

I thought I would open up a thread in the proper place for the various views of the fallen angels, Nephilim, evil spirits, etc. My particular inquiry to start this thread is...

The existance of "evil spirits" can be sourced in the Bible (Luke 7:21, 8:2; Acts 19:12-13; Matt 12:27 and possibly 1Sam 16,18,19, but this can be disputed).

It is my understanding that there are two views.
(1) Evil spirits are fallen angels.
(2) Evil spirits are the disimbodied spirits of the Nephilim (the product of fallen angel and human women procreation).

If there is another view, I would like to hear it. Also, If you hold to one of the two options above (or one I haven't heard), what verses (within the Bible only please) do you use to establish this position? That is, the position of, evil spirits are....

Peace be to you

The evil spirits are all the fallen angels, including satan himself of course who is a fallen angel himself.

Angels do not have the ability to pro create.

Genesis 6:1-4 “Sons of God” cannot refer to angels in Genesis 6:4 because it warps God's ultimate plan for humanity's salvation. He states His purpose in Genesis 1:26, “Let us create man in Our image, according to Our likeness.”

God is reproducing Himself (taking on His character). The concept of angels reproducing themselves through interspecies marriages with humans denies the very gospel of the Kingdom of God, God offers human beings the opportunity to join His Family and inherit all things. Angelic/human hybrids insert an alien element into the plan of God, which He would never allow to confuse matters. Hyow would salvation be or damnation be explained IF there were are "hybrids"

Genesis 6:4 reads as follows: The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

Says right in the verse they were mighty MEN ... not angels or hybrids.

daughters of men
mighty men
the men of renown

MEN ... 3 times.

 

[Paleouss]

As an added twist to my "evil spirits" inquiry. I would like to present this delimma. Especially for those who hold that fallen angels are these evil spirits depicted in the Bible (which is my view).

The first question, is Jude 1:6 and 2Peter 2:4 speaking about the same thing?

(Jude 1:6 NKJV)
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

(2Pe 2:4 NKJV)
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

The second question, how does one reconcile that in Jude 1:6 and 2Peter 2:4 the fallen angels are chained until judgement and there are "evil spirits" (fallen angels) here on earth at the same time?

 

[Hawkins]

In my opinion, "angels are spirits" is spoken in a sense that they spiritually exist in the spiritual realm. Their natural form is not with a physical body as humans are. They are natural entities existing in another realm outside of our 3D environment. In contrary we humans are living in a physical realm that we need a body as an image for us to recognize each other. We humans don't recognize each other when we are without a physical body which serves as our image. Angels don't need such a body for them to recognize each other. Angels have a body only when they have a mission on earth assigned to them, then they are given a physical body in order to physically show up on earth and to appear in front of humans.

Angels are spiritual in terms of that they don't need a physical body to recognize each other. As such, they are not obessessed with a human body. Demons and evil spirits love to have a physical body to possess, more likely it's because they once upon a time were a human in a form, including the giants and such. "Evil spirits" are those souls once lived in a human form and are obsessed with a human body. The advantage of owning a body possibly allows them to see the day light and to perceive our physically world more realistically, as Hades and Abyss are perpetually in a form of darkness. The angels don't have an equal desire on owning a human body which they never had before.

Evil spirts are more likely those trained up by the fallen angels, while it's possible that the souls of the giants or Nephilims are more capable than other humans to be trained up to serve the fallen angels to do the evil deeds. It seems that the concpet of "Nephilims being evil spirits" is delivered from the book of Enoch.

 

[Paleouss]

God is reproducing Himself (taking on His character). The concept of angels reproducing themselves through interspecies marriages with humans denies the very gospel of the Kingdom of God, God offers human beings the opportunity to join His Family and inherit all things. Angelic/human hybrids insert an alien element into the plan of God, which He would never allow to confuse matters. Hyow would salvation be or damnation be explained IF there were are "hybrids"

I would like to know your thoughts on the "added twist" I presented after your post.

Regarding your current post, I have a few arguments from reason that have a connection to what you wrote.

Argument from Reason #1
An interesting fact that relates to our inquiry, God created the species here on earth “according to their kind” (Gen 1:24-25) so as not to be able to procreate, intermingle DNA, with other species. Although deviant sexual behaviors can be practiced, humans cannot procreate with bears, horses, cows, nor dogs. Additionally, bears cannot procreate with horses, nor dogs with cows. It is clear that God has created boundaries and limits to what species mankind can procreate with. It would be reasonable to think these boundaries pertained to all species outside of the human race, including angels. Angels were most likely created according to their kind. One might ask, if God made this boundary for mankind to be unable to intermingle genetic material with other species, then what would be God’s purpose of not including this boundary between humans and angels?

Argument from Reason #2
Logic would seem to tell us that if angels were never intended to marry (Matt 22:30) or be given in marriage in heaven. Then those angels were never given the ability to reproduce, i.e., they were never intended to be given a directive of “be fruitful and multiply” (Gen 1:22). For what would be God’s purpose for giving angels the ability to reproduce if none of the angels were ever intended to marry? Further, all the angels referenced in the Bible are done in the masculine, which leads us to two additional points. The first point, grammatical gender is not the same as actual gender. Just because angels are spoken of in the grammatical masculine sense does not mean they are physically of masculine gender, they may be of no gender whatsoever. There is no biblical evidence that reveals that angels actually have a masculine gender (in the reproduction sense). Second, if it was the case that all angels are of masculine gender, then it is reasonable to think that angels were never intended to procreate with other angels at all because there are no feminine gender angels. So why would God then give them the ability to reproduce with humans if He considered inter-species cohabitation as an abomination and had no intention of angels reproducing with angels?

Argument from Reason #3
God created all things (John 1:3) and everything that God created (creates) is first good (Gen 1:31) for God does not have “pleasure in wickedness” (Psa 5:4). Therefore, everything that was created was first created good, because God is good, and then became evil/fallen due to moral agency. But evil spirits are said to be the offspring of Evil, a new species, created by evil to do evil. Therefore, either (a) God did not create all things or (b) God created evil, to do evil, and therefore is not all good. Both of these conclusions are not true, to me.


May God do a fruitful work through you

 

[Paleouss]

In my opinion, "angels are spirits" is spoken in a sense that they spiritually exist in the spiritual realm. They are natural entities existing in another realm outside of our 3D environment.

I agree. My question to you is, can the spiritual intermingle with the physical?

Angels are spiritual in terms of that they don't need a physical body to recognize each other. As such, they are not obessessed with a human body.

Although I would tend to agree, to some degree. Do you have any verse(s) that help supply your confidence on this?

Demons and evil spirits love to have a physical body to possess, more likely it's because they once upon a time were a human in a form, including the giants and such.

Why do you say, "most likely"? I'm taking this to mean that of the possiblities, logic would seem to point more toward... So what is your logic regarding why you think it is "most likely"?

"Evil spirits" are those souls once lived in a human form and are obsessed with a human body. The advantage of owning a body possibly allows them to see the day light and to perceive our physically world more realistically, as Hades and Abyss are perpetually in a form of darkness. The angels don't have an equal desire on owning a human body which they never had before.

Interesting. I haven't considered this line of thought before. Do you have any verses that speak to (1) evil spirits previously living in human form, (2) "allows them to see the day light", or (3) "the angels don't have an equal desire"?

Evil spirts are more likely those trained up by the fallen angels, while it's possible that the souls of the giants or Nephilims are more capable than other humans to be trained up to serve the fallen angels to do the evil deeds. It seems that the concpet of Nephilims being evil spirits is delivered from the book of Enoch.

Got it.

Peace be to you

 

[Hawkins]

I agree. My question to you is, can the spiritual intermingle with the physical?

Although I would tend to agree, to some degree. Do you have any verse(s) that help supply your confidence on this?

Why do you say, "most likely"? I'm taking this to mean that of the possiblities, logic would seem to point more toward... So what is your logic regarding why you think it is "most likely"?

Interesting. I haven't considered this line of thought before. Do you have any verses that speak to (1) evil spirits previously living in human form, (2) "allows them to see the day light", or (3) "the angels don't have an equal desire"?

Got it.

Peace be to you

Since the Bible is not about angels nor spirits in Hades, I doubt that there are solid support verses can be found in the Bible itself. So it's all about speculation and logical deduction in a sense.

 

[trophy33]

My personal view at this moment is that these evil spirits are some of the fallen angels.

The problem with this view is that it makes no sense.

There is no known possible reason why would angels need to live in a sick human (or even pig) body (the biblical description of these occurrences is always associated with sick people). Its like if you desperately wanted to live inside a sick ant. Angelic bodies are supposed to be much better than ours.

Another problem is that Jude describes the fallen angels as being held in a prison in tartarus, not as living in people.

The "Enoch giants hypothesis" makes some sense, at least.

 

[Paleouss]

The problem with this view is that it makes no sense.

My apologies if what I wrote makes no sense to you. I will try and do better.

There is no possible reason why would angels need to live in a sick human body.

You seem to reframe (a possible attempted strawman) my statement about evil spirits being fallen angels into some kind of twist that angels NEED to live in sick human bodies. I made no statement that resembles your presentation of my view.

Peace be to you

 

[Paleouss]

The problem with this view is that it makes no sense.

There is no known possible reason why would angels need to live in a sick human (or even pig) body (the biblical description of these occurrences is always associated with sick people). Its like if you desperately wanted to live inside a sick ant. Angelic bodies are supposed to be much better than ours.



The "Enoch giants hypothesis" makes some sense, at least.

Ahh, thank you for your edits. I see what you are trying to say now....I think. lol

You are saying that the "Enoch giants hypothesis" seems more reasonable, compared to the fallen angel hypothesis. Your reasoning would seem to be that it is because you cannot think of any "known possible reason" why a fallen angel would possess a human.

I first would like to ask if you have any verses in the Bible that give you confidence that the "Enoch giants hypothesis" explains why these evil spirits live in humans. Are there any verses in the Bible that explain this "why" for your view in the Bible? Again, in the Bible.

The only one for my view that is biblical would be to tempt and influence. Any other would be speculation on my part. For example, 1Pet 5:8 says that the "devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." (ESV). This term "devour" is also seen in Revelation 12:4. If you know of any others, let me know.

Another problem is that Jude describes the fallen angels as being held in a prison in tartarus, not as living in people.

Yes, I agree. This is a delimma. I actually posted this delimma earlier in this thread as a twist. As you are suggesting, how does one reconcile that (A) angels are referred to as spirits (Heb 1:13) and therefore would be reasonable to suggest that evil angels could be referred to as evil spirits. And (B) Jude and 2Peter say that there are fallen angels in chains until judgement.

I have have an answer, at least my view, but it is not grounded very well with a lot of verses. So I'll hold off for the time being and just agree, it is a delimma.

Peace be to you

 

[RileyG]

The OP question seems to be about evil spirits in the specific context of various sickness (Luke 7:21, 8:2; Acts 19:12-13; Matt 12:27). One of the verses even literally says "being healed of the evil spirits".

Ohhh, I see

 

[RandyPNW]

RandyPNW, thank you for your thought out reply. I do have an inquiry into some of what you wrote. You wrote

I agree that Adam (mankind) was given dominion over the earth by God (Gen 1:26,28). The way you wrote your response, I take it to mean that man still has dominion and fallen spirits are currently intruding upon that dominion. Do I have that correct?

Yes. God has not conceded dominion of the earth to non-men. Men possessed by spirits can legitimately do illegal things. Maybe a contradiction?

Some hold, I being one, that mankind was given dominion over the earth and lost that dominion due to the fall.

Yes, that's a common narrative--one that I do not hold to. Sorry. Sin is preventing us from exercising our full dominion, including dominion over ourselves.

The current being that has dominion in this world, in my view, is Satan (2Cor 4:4). I believe that scripture presents two kingdoms, (1) the Kingdom of earth and (2) the Kingdom of God. This Kingdom of God storyline was established at creation (Gen 1:26,28), lost at the fall (Gen 3:24, John 12:3, Eph 2:2, 2Cor 4:4), prophesied throughout the OT (Gen 3:15, 22:18, 49:10; Sam 7:12-13; Dan 2:43-44, 7:13-14), currently present in spiritual form (Luke 17:20-21), and one day a physical reality on earth at the second coming of Jesus Christ (Rev 11:15).

Satan's residence was in heaven. He slipped into the realm of man via the serpent. Satan continues his heavenly reign by controlling sinful people.

One might question what this has to do with fallen angels, that is, my inquiry with you in this post regarding dominion. But I think it has a lot to do with it. In particular, why there are evil spirits here on earth.

Peace be to you and your family

Thanks. Mind you, all I'm saying is speculative. There is Bible info on it, but I'm not sure if I have it right. Just discussing my thoughts.

 

[trophy33]

I first would like to ask if you have any verses in the Bible that give you confidence that the "Enoch giants hypothesis" explains why these evil spirits live in humans.

Enoch is extra-biblical literature. Bible gives no explanation for demons/evil spirits.

 

[Paleouss]

Yes, that's a common narrative--one that I do not hold to. Sorry. Sin is preventing us from exercising our full dominion, including dominion over ourselves.

No need to be sorry. I understand your position better now.

Satan continues his heavenly reign by controlling sinful people.

When, in your view, do you think Satan was cast down to earth? Just getting a cohesive whole of your position in my mind.

Thanks. Mind you, all I'm saying is speculative. There is Bible info on it, but I'm not sure if I have it right. Just discussing my thoughts.

Got it. Thank you

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

No Bible text says that evil spirits are spirits of dead Nephilim.

And no Bible text says that evil spirits are fallen angels. Both is just an interpretation.

Matt 12 and Rev 12 appear to show that to be the lead/head of demons is to be the leader of fallen angels.

Rev 12 "Satan and his angels"
Matt 12 "satan the ruler of demons"

demons are fallen angels.

Satan himself - "the devil"

What does the Bible say about demons? | GotQuestions.org

What does the Bible say about demons? Where do demons come from? Are the demons fallen angels? Why did the demons rebel against God?

www.gotquestions.org

"Demons are fallen angels, as Revelation 12:9 indicates: “The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.” Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12–15 and Ezekiel 28:12–15. When he fell, Satan took some of the angels with him—one third of them, according to Revelation 12:4. Jude 6 also mentions angels who sinned. So, biblically, demons are fallen angels who, along with Satan, chose to rebel against God."

 

[BobRyan]

Enoch is extra-biblical literature.

True - and much of the book is nonsense added a few centuries before the time of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

The "Enoch giants hypothesis" makes some sense, at least.

It does not fit the Bible since the bible says that Nephilim were on earth before the mixed marriages and also after the flood (Making Noah Nephilim) - which just means that not only did he live longer than humans do today - he was somewhat taller.