Explaining the mechanics of grace

[Neophyte365]

Hi all,

Please note that this is not an attempt to debate or discredit, but an honest inquiry. I have no agenda other than improving my understanding.

When Nicodemus asked Jesus how it was possible for a person to be born a second time, Jesus said, "The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).

When I was reading this exchange last night, I thought Jesus was saying that the way grace and the sacraments work is a mystery and that the reality of the wind is more important than "where it comes from or where it is going." And my mind jumped to the tendency in Latin theology to use philosophy to explain how grace and the sacraments work. E.g., the doctrine of transubstantiation (building on Aristotle).

What do you think about the Church's use of philosophy to explain these things? How would you respond to critics who say we should take a more agnostic approach to how grace and the sacraments work?

Thank you.

 

[pdudgeon]

"When I was reading this exchange last night, I thought Jesus was saying that the way grace and the sacraments work is a mystery and that the reality of the wind is more important than "where it comes from or where it is going." And my mind jumped to the tendency in Latin theology to use philosophy to explain how grace and the sacraments work. E.g., the doctrine of transubstantiation (building on Aristotle)."


Thank you.

i wanted to lift out this above quoted paragraph from your post, because while grace and the way grace works through the sacraments can be a mystery to us, it also helps to explain the differences between how God thinks and how we humans often think.

for example, logically if one does something wrong in this world they are punished or repremanded for doing it.
But with God-- since He is holy and perfect-- we would think that logically it would follow that justice and punnishment would always be the case. And indeed, if you read through the book of Genesis you will note that the requirements for the burnt offerings that were sacrificed to obtain His forgiveness kept on increasing as the book went on. It was that way until the penalties for a sin committed wound up being very hefty indeed.
Had that continued on, there would have been no possible way for a man to ever obtain forgiveness from God.
it was a perfectly logical and just system, but it did not achieve the desired results of man's willing obedience to God. Something more beyond logic was needed.

the answer was love.
and from that love sprang the unearned grace, forgiveness, and self sacrifice that embody Our Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[concretecamper]

The Church's view of the Eucharist hasn't changed since in close to 2000 years. Grant it, the word transubstantiation was not in use in the early Church but the Church then held the same belief as we do today.....it is truly the body and blood of Christ.

Do you have another example to convey your question?

 

[Neophyte365]

The Church's view of the Eucharist hasn't changed since in close to 2000 years. Grant it, the word transubstantiation was not in use in the early Church but the Church then held the same belief as we do today.....it is truly the body and blood of Christ.

Do you have another example to convey your question?

Hi concretecamper,

It's the explanation for the belief that I'm wondering about. The Church may have always believed the Eucharist to be the true body and blood of Christ, but it's the explanation of accidents and substance that later developed. So I guess I'm asking, in light of Jesus' response to Nicodemus about how baptism could make a person be born a second time, is it better for us to say "it's a mystery" when asked how the Eucharist could be the true body and blood of Christ? Jesus seems to be saying that these things are beyond human reason. But I would like to hear the other perspective.

 

[concretecamper]

In the face of heresy, the Church has been forced to more clearly define certain truths.

The Greek word for mystery is Musterion.

Musterion: In the NT it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. Word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God

 

[pdudgeon]

Hi concretecamper,

It's the explanation for the belief that I'm wondering about. The Church may have always believed the Eucharist to be the true body and blood of Christ, but it's the explanation of accidents and substance that later developed. So I guess I'm asking, in light of Jesus' response to Nicodemus about how baptism could make a person be born a second time, is it better for us to say "it's a mystery" when asked how the Eucharist could be the true body and blood of Christ? Jesus seems to be saying that these things are beyond human reason. But I would like to hear the other perspective.

you are right, there are many things about Jesus that are a mystery to our human experience, knowledge, and reasoning. For now.
in our curent existance we are limited to 3 dimentions, as well as being limited by time and space.
our knowledge and experiences come from and are bound by all of those.
But through Jesus we have knowledge that more than those dimentions exist.
Jesus transcends all of those things simply because He is God and He is man.

While Jesus was here on Earth, He taught many things to the apostles, but there were just as many more things that He didn't teach but is saving for when we can understand and bear them in heaven.
that's when our knowledge will be complete.
What Jesus taught while here on Earth was complete enough for us to believe, to have saving faith in Him
and in God who sent Him, and for each of us to have a way opened to the Father.

It is through that way and via the teaching and instruction of the Holy Spirit that we learn what is necessary for us to know in order to continue to have that belief and faith that God wants for us,
and His assurance so that we don't loose the way.

That (to my mind at least) is the reason for all the additional answers that we have been given through the magisterium.

 

[Neophyte365]

Thank you for the explanations, concretecamper and pdudgeon. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. It's possible I'm reading more into Jesus' words than is there, but I'll chew on these thoughts.