Evolution Between Species: Essential Questions

[Stillicidia]

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[RickG]

On the subject of evolution only two things give me closure.

First, the bible speaks against those who believe we stem from rocks.

Second, scientists' proof of evolution has always ended in it being a theory.
1 Dating can render a fresh penguin skeleton to be 20 million years old, accurate?
2 Bones of ancestors is all fabrication and hoaxes, has been nothing more.
3 Fossils of ancient animals are found alive, they aren't even extinct, let alone the first of all living matter billions of years ago.
4 Petrification is actually a very fast process, and they don't want to acknowledge that fact.
They call evolution fact, and know not that they have a terrible religion.

Stillicidia, as a Christian I respect your rejection of evolution. However, based on your comments you appear to be rejecting it for the wrong reasons.

First, did God not take dirt and make Adam? Dirt is from rocks.

Second, you don't seem to understand what a theory is with respect to science. There are no proofs in science, proofs are exclusive of mathematics. A theory in science is as good as it gets. Germ theory, Theory of Gravitation, and so on. Scientific theories describe the science, they are not guesses or suppositions. The only hoaxes of bones of ancestors that have occurred was either during the early part of the 20th century or earlier by non-professional archeologists and whose hoaxes were exposed by the greater scientific community. Petrification? Don't you mean "fossilization"? No, it is not a fast process.

Again, if you wish to reject evolution, I recommend do so on the basis of the bible, not misrepresented "creation science" which I classify as a violation of the 9th commandment.

God Bless

But more than anything is the 4 reasons you listed with what bothers me the most. It is more than obvious that that information was obtained from the "creation science" literature. That literature is littered with extremely poor scholarship, most of which is from people who don't even have a physical science background, much less a specialty in the area they write about, and much of it being deliberately misrepresented scientific information.

I am familiar of some 70 plus dating methods, both radiometric, and non-radiometric, all of which agree with one-another when cross-referenced. A penguin skeleton has never been dated to 20 million years. How do I know? Bone is dated through the radiocarbon dating method, which is only accessible on the high end to some 60,000 years.

 

[Stillicidia]

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[sfs]

Stubborn one, the USA will be judged mightily because of its stubborn people. Beyond rebuking, be keen, lest you fall. You are of one who puts my nation in harms way, and you say you are christian.

Where does the Bible speak against those who say we stem from rocks?

As for stubbornness, I was raised as a young-earth creationist, but changed my views when I encountered the reality of God's creation. How does that make me stubborn? Or is anyone who disagrees with you stubborn and under God's judgment?

 

[Stillicidia]

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[sfs]

I'm just saying it's the cause of judgement. So I tried the internet, google, for the scripture, and it isn't there. It isn't anywhere on the internet. I should figure something like this should be well known, and yet I have to look for it in the book.

Maybe you should have looked for it before you started pronouncing God's judgment on people?

 

[mark kennedy]

On the subject of evolution only two things give me closure.

First, the bible speaks against those who believe we stem from rocks.

Actually the Bible says was came from dust, literally 'red' clay, that's what Adam's name actually meant.

Second, scientists' proof of evolution has always ended in it being a theory.

Evolution is a phenomenon in nature, the so called theory of evolution is a philosophy of natural history, equivocating the two is demented.

1 Dating can render a fresh penguin skeleton to be 20 million years old, accurate?

I've yet to see an argument for Darwinian evolution based on radiometric dating. Generally geology like cosmology, utterly irrelevant.

2 Bones of ancestors is all fabrication and hoaxes, has been nothing more.

It's immersed in false positives and notably the Piltdown hoax speaks volumes for the lengths Darwinians will go to to promote their materialistic worldview. The fossils are all very interesting but I've noticed something over the years. One evolutionists don't like to talk about fossils, there is good reason for that. Two, there are no chimpanzee ancestors in the fossil record because as soon as one is uncovered in Africa is automatically one of our ancestors. It's the simple obvious stuff that exposes the nature of the real problem here.

3 Fossils of ancient animals are found alive, they aren't even extinct, let alone the first of all living matter billions of years ago.

Bacteria appears to be as far as the trail can go. I have been reading up on the Last Universal Common Ancestor and I found out a couple of things.

The complete nucleotide sequence (580,070 base pairs) of the Mycoplasma genitalium genome, the smallest known genome of any free-living organism, has been determined by whole-genome random sequencing and assembly. A total of only 470 predicted coding regions were identified that include genes required for DNA replication, transcription and translation, DNA repair, cellular transport, and energy metabolism. (The minimal gene complement of Mycoplasma genitalium Science 1995)
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Stephen Meyer seems to think this makes a pretty good improbability argument of Producing Genes and proteins by chance. I'd go into the details but if you ever get into genetics this whole Darwinian evolution thing starts to run into serious problems.

4 Petrification is actually a very fast process, and they don't want to acknowledge that fact.
They call evolution fact, and know not that they have a terrible religion.

Actually they want to replace religion with unified theories like Darwinian universal common descent and to a lesser degree the mysterious and elusive String Theory. Make no mistake, metaphysics is the real issue here. They have never replaced God as the primary mover, and first cause. They just want people to ignore that possibility.

Just let me caution you about something about judging other Christians, only because I've struggled with this myself. We know what people say and do, God knows why. You seem to have a running dialogue going with sfs which is good, while he is a strong evolutionist you should know he is well educated, accomplished and compared to many of the scientific and academic professionals who present their views on this subject, he is a pretty moderate voice. I'm just saying, it's been my experience that reminding them that all Christians are creationists gets you a lot more mileage.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Nicene Creed​

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Stillicidia]

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[mark kennedy]

I'm looking for it, and I'm also trying to research where to find exhortation against unworthily taking communion. I can't find that either. If I remember right the two are close together.

I think I know where your going with this:

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. (1 Cor. 11:27–29)
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You may of noticed from the passage that the issue is how Christians treat other Christians, Paul warns because of their mistreatment of other Christians some of you are sick and some of you sleep. Now that's how the rich treat the poor, same problem being addressed in James 2. It's a serious matter, hope you find some resolution.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Stillicidia]

Jeremiah Chapter 2 Vs 27

 

[Stillicidia]

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[Speedwell]

I think I know where your going with this:

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. (1 Cor. 11:27–29)
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You may of noticed from the passage that the issue is how Christians treat other Christians, Paul warns because of their mistreatment of other Christians some of you are sick and some of you sleep. Now that's how the rich treat the poor, same problem being addressed in James 2. It's a serious matter, hope you find some resolution.

Grace and peace,
Mark

So now you and your rubber ducky friend have decided that those who don't agree with you about the Bible are unworthy of the Eucharist?

Your arrogance takes my breath away.

 

[mark kennedy]

So now you and your rubber ducky friend have decided that those who don't agree with you about the Bible are unworthy of the Eucharist?

Your arrogance takes my breath away.

So you realize that how Christians treat one another matters, that's progress. Now if you could admit to it would be important.

 

[mark kennedy]

Anyways, fossilization is not petrification, when I say one I mean one.

So if I were to say fossils are animals that turned out to still exist, to which you say "uh so?"
Then you say fossilization is much slower than petrification.
Then you neglect that I mention petrification because it is yet used as evidence for evolutionists.
Petrification of which is much faster than initially believed,
how can fossilization not be much faster than initially believed?
You said it's much slower than petrification, and yet those animals are around, living.

You, yourself, assume much.

You say it is a lie that skulls from potential ancestors are littered with fabrications and hoaxes, why do you dismiss this? Do you not know of a regular human skull and ape jawbone combination fabrication hoax?

Logic and reasoning testifies against evolution in every which way shape or form.

Like I have tried to tell you, this isn't about evolution. We know there is such a thing. Its whether or not we evolved from apes, that's the matter. Focus on specifics and you would be surprised how simple this gets.

 

[Speedwell]

So you realize that how Christians treat one another matters, that's progress. Now if you could admit to it would be important.

I certainly admit my failure to "turn the other cheek" when dealing with people like you, and I am sorry for it.

 

[mark kennedy]

I certainly admit my failure to "turn the other cheek" when dealing with people like you, and I am sorry for it.

I'm as guilty as anyone one of not turning the other cheek, or giving asking nothing in return or going the extra mile. Still I believe that is our calling our confidence and our hope.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (Col. 3:12-14)
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I guess we could all strive to be more civil in these discussions. I'm beginning to wonder if I have spent too much time on apologetics and not enough time appealing to the Scriptures themselves. We all live and learn I suppose.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Speedwell]

I'm as guilty as anyone one of not turning the other cheek, or giving asking nothing in return or going the extra mile. Still I believe that is our calling our confidence and our hope.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (Col. 3:12-14)
​

I guess we could all strive to be more civil in these discussions. I'm beginning to wonder if I have spent too much time on apologetics and not enough time appealing to the Scriptures themselves. We all live and learn I suppose.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Thank you. However, I'm not sure your idea will necessarily work. Without going into detail at this point, I will observe that the scriptures simply do not play the same role in the faith of non-YEC Christians as they seem to in yours.

 

[mark kennedy]

Thank you. However, I'm not sure your idea will necessarily work. Without going into detail at this point, I will observe that the scriptures simply do not play the same role in the faith of non-YEC Christians as they seem to in yours.

I'm not really YEC, I think the age of the earth and cosmos are irrelevant. The Scriptures are redemptive history and God has been involved from the beginning. The Gospel plays the same role in the lives of believers it always has and always will, until the redemption of the purchase price:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession to the praise of his glory.(Ephesians 1:13-14)
​

What role does the Bible play in your life?

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. (1Cor. 13:9-12)
​

What we believe with regards to Scripture is a very big deal.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Heb. 1:1-3)​

You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39,40)
​

The New Testament confirms the Old Testament in no uncertain terms. Jesus didn't dismiss the testimony of the Old Testament, he appealed to it:

If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” (John 5:46,47)
​

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Speedwell]

I'm not really YEC, I think the age of the earth and cosmos are irrelevant. The Scriptures are redemptive history and God has been involved from the beginning. The Gospel plays the same role in the lives of believers it always has and always will, until the redemption of the purchase price:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession to the praise of his glory.(Ephesians 1:13-14)
​

What role does the Bible play in your life?

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. (1Cor. 13:9-12)
​

What we believe with regards to Scripture is a very big deal.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Heb. 1:1-3)​

You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39,40)
​

The New Testament confirms the Old Testament in no uncertain terms. Jesus didn't dismiss the testimony of the Old Testament, he appealed to it:

If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” (John 5:46,47)
​

Grace and peace,
Mark

What I was suggesting is that there are a large numbers of Christians, a clear majority in fact, who would agree with that post, but without recourse to the doctrines of literal inerrancy, perspicuity, self interpretation or plenary verbal inspiration.

 

[mark kennedy]

What I was suggesting is that there are a large numbers of Christians, a clear majority in fact, who would agree with that post, but without recourse to the doctrines of literal inerrancy, perspicuity, self interpretation or plenary verbal inspiration.

There is a large number of Christians that would, I learned long ago you can't base your confidence in the Scriptures on majority opinion or we would all be Catholic. I do believe the Scriptures are self contained, primary source documents. It's really not all that esoteric, you believe it or you don't. I've interacted with evolutionists for years and benefited greatly from what I learned in the process. It's been enlightening, engaging and done nothing but strengthen my confidence in the Scriptures. There is one trick to Bible study I would like to share with you since you have chosen to be civil and seem sincere in your desire to have a running dialogue on the subject. First you have to understand what it is saying because whatever you think the writer gets to tell the story and there is nothing you can do about that. I struggled for years with the prophets, those guys just gave me fits but it's doable if you really want to understand the message. The book of Romans seemed hopelessly obscure and blistering in it's scathing indictment in the opening chapters, it's not much fun having your pedigree read to you by an Apostle. I don't know how many times I have put it down thinking, Oh come on, this is just too much. I always went back though, the promise of the Gospel is just to hard to resist.

Just one more thing and I apologize for the way I tend to ramble, I've just been into this for so long. I could only learn the book of Romans by forgetting the Romans road to heaven you see in so many tracts. Don't get me wrong, I believe what they are saying but in order to understand how the book ebbs and flows you have to let Paul tell you about the doctrine and application of the Gospel and put your superficial predilections aside. The Word of God comes to us in written form, which is a great blessing. It only benefits us when we can view it through the prism of faith and receive the message with a mature and determined persistence.

Tell you what, let's set the heavy theological and philosophical stuff aside a moment and tell me something. Why are you a Christian and what role do the Scriptures play in that?

Grace and peace,
Mark