Evidence for the other guy

[Delphiki]

This is far from evidence for a fallen angel that causes harm in the world. It is evidence of sick and evil men. I do not see these mean being influenced by anything but their own motivations.

...or some form of psychosis.

I guess, if you are referring to Satan metaphorically... As in the spirit of evil in general, then you could say it's evidence for it. But as for a red dude with horns and a pitchfork? No.

 

[awitch]

Right. Either a physical or spiritual entity with unique personality.

 

[oi_antz]

You seem to be speaking of the Christian notion that the things of the body (flesh) are lesser than the things of the spirit. Judaism does not subscribe to that idea. God created everything, and we are to enjoy the fruits that God gives us both physically and spiritually.

Interesting to learn that perspective, sorry for treading your toes, I'll have to give this some thought as I too believe that too much emphasis in Christianity is put on abstinence of fleshly desires. Although I believe that the flesh is at war with the spirit, I also believe many of the Christian definitions of sin are merely addictions rather than spiritual temptation (often, not always).

 

[b&wpac4]

Interesting to learn that perspective, sorry for treading your toes, I'll have to give this some thought as I too believe that too much emphasis in Christianity is put on abstinence of fleshly desires. Although I believe that the flesh is at war with the spirit, I also believe many of the Christian definitions of sin are merely addictions rather than spiritual temptation (often, not always).

Well, think of it this way. I will be married next year, and we plan to have children. I am not going to feel the sex I have with my wife is unpure, unclean, or anything like that. It is a beautiful, joyful experience between people who love each other. I refuse to see it as at war with my spirituality.

It's like when we celebrate many of the holidays in Jewish tradition. Many of them are connected with specific foods, and many of them are good. We are supposed to enjoy the food.

It's overindulgence that is seen as a problem.

 

[oi_antz]

Well, think of it this way. I will be married next year, and we plan to have children. I am not going to feel the sex I have with my wife is unpure, unclean, or anything like that. It is a beautiful, joyful experience between people who love each other. I refuse to see it as at war with my spirituality.

It's like when we celebrate many of the holidays in Jewish tradition. Many of them are connected with specific foods, and many of them are good. We are supposed to enjoy the food.

It's overindulgence that is seen as a problem.

Yes you are bringing up the issue of guilt which is associated with sin, what you are suggesting is that enjoying sex is a sin which clearly isn't consistent with the way nature is designed.

Also I have my very own opinion about smoking marijuana that some Christians don't agree with, so to some extent the ideals we place around the definition of sin can be unrealistic or founded on personal intolerance.

I haven't heard of a Christian who believes that sex within marriage is sin (unless it is abusive of course, which your's clearly is not), if you don't mind the question, does your faith believe that homosexuality is sin?

 

[b&wpac4]

Yes you are bringing up the issue of guilt which is associated with sin, what you are suggesting is that enjoying sex is a sin which clearly isn't consistent with the way nature is designed.

Also I have my very own opinion about smoking marijuana that some Christians don't agree with, so to some extent the ideals we place around the definition of sin can be unrealistic or founded on personal intolerance.

I haven't heard of a Christian who believes that sex within marriage is sin (unless it is abusive of course, which your's clearly is not), if you don't mind the question, does your faith believe that homosexuality is sin?

I wasn't suggesting that Christians think it is a sin, but in some circles it is viewed as one of those pleasures of the flesh that are not as good as the fruits of spirit. I think that's why many fundamentalists have this strange view of sex, dancing, eating good foods and such, because of this belief. Jews, on the other hand, are more willing to engage in these behaviors understand they exist and are good because God in Genesis declared creation good.

For our discussion, we are going to define homosexuality as the act of homosexual sex not an attraction.

I have heard three views on the subject:

All homosexual sex is a sin.

Only homosexual sex between men is a sin.

It is only rape that is a sin.

 

[oi_antz]

I wasn't suggesting that Christians think it is a sin, but in some circles it is viewed as one of those pleasures of the flesh that are not as good as the fruits of spirit. I think that's why many fundamentalists have this strange view of sex, dancing, eating good foods and such, because of this belief. Jews, on the other hand, are more willing to engage in these behaviors understand they exist and are good because God in Genesis declared creation good.

Agreed 100%.

For our discussion, we are going to define homosexuality as the act of homosexual sex not an attraction.

I have heard three views on the subject:

All homosexual sex is a sin.

Only homosexual sex between men is a sin.

It is only rape that is a sin.

It is interesting to see a double-standard for men and women, so can I conclude that male homosexual lust is tolerated while the actual act is wrong, does this mean that in (at least some) Jewish communities that it is acceptable for guys to glorify male lust, or is it too personal to show in public? I hope you don't mind such mucky questions, I've always been quite interested in Judaism but haven't had much exposure to it so I appreciate your time to help me understand it better.

 

[b&wpac4]

Before going more off topic, I'll send you a PM.

 

[razeontherock]

Away from the muckiness and back on topic

I guess, if you are referring to Satan metaphorically... As in the spirit of evil in general, then you could say it's evidence for it.

Well, that's a ... vague start to, kind of a conversation, about something or someone that seems to be rather unknown among (most of) those here.

 

[morningstar2651]

Can I have that one too? Either that or Justin Beiber.

 

[morningstar2651]

Well the beast brings with it the mark on the right hand or forehead, I believe this mark is evidence that the human has sold their soul to the beast, and the beast now controls the conscience. Once someone has done this they can't be saved, it is as though they have been committed to hell before their death, but they are still living the rest of their lives in the bliss of earth in a last-ditch attempt to deceive everyone who hasn't committed to Satan already that He is the God you need to worship, and as someone has said it will be a very enticing argument he makes. It will appear like membership is the solution to all of life's problems.

So, he's a card-carrying villain?

EDIT: In retrospect, every time someone tries to convert me to Christianity, they try to entice me with promises that it's the solution to all of life's problems...

 

[razeontherock]

EDIT: In retrospect, every time someone tries to convert me to Christianity, they try to entice me with promises that it's the solution to all of life's problems...

So the fact it hasn't worked makes it likely that it was the spirit of anti-christ you were presented with, which lines up perfectly with your observation here. Many of those on CF that say they rejected Christianity actually rejected something else, and I applaud them for doing so. The real thing will stand up to scrutiny, and by the time you strip away all the man-made garbage, the Gospel is amazingly simple! (see user name for example)

 

[oi_antz]

So, he's a card-carrying villain?

EDIT: In retrospect, every time someone tries to convert me to Christianity, they try to entice me with promises that it's the solution to all of life's problems...

You can draw parallels of truth to lie, sometimes the lie comes close to containing truth, but according to Revelations itself the prophecy of the book is sealed and only the lamb can reveal the truths of it. No wonder it flew over your head.

What's this about a villain with cards, is that another parallel observation?

Edit: so you mean to say the beast is giving false declaration, I would accept that could be the case, on the other hand it could be that the people who are deceived seem to clearly know they are leading the rebellion against God yet make a conscious decision to fight God no matter what.

 

[ttfn]

The real thing will stand up to scrutiny, and by the time you strip away all the man-made garbage, the Gospel is amazingly simple!

How can it stand up to scrutiny when there is nothing there to scrutinise.

All religions are man-made that's why they are so amazingly simple, they were started when life was simple.

There is a God, where? everywhere, I can't see him, no one can, then how do you know he's there? because the bible tells me so, who wrote the bible? God, how do you know God wrote it? because God said he did....

 

[oi_antz]

How can it stand up to scrutiny when there is nothing there to scrutinise.

All religions are man-made that's why they are so amazingly simple, they were started when life was simple.

There is a God, where? everywhere, I can't see him, no one can, then how do you know he's there? because the bible tells me so, who wrote the bible? God, how do you know God wrote it? because God said he did....

When you speak like that it's clear you've had less experience with spirituality than others, that's just a consequence of society I guess it's not a fault of anyone particularly, more that in our limited experiences of life we may walk different paths and become apparently different in character, such as having different beliefs.

I think if you don't have a perception of God then you'll never know what it means to someone who does. When you say "everywhere at once", your mind struggles to comprehend that which is most simply stated as spirit.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

And yet, oi_antz, there are those who might claim that *your* religious beliefs are "just a consequence of society" - and with a considerable amount of data to back them up, too.

To a certain extent, we are all products of our environment, and religious affiliation is just as much a part of this phenomenon as a lack of the same.


Personally, I do not broad-brush spirituality in general as "primitive superstition", but simply find that most religious traditions deal with spirituality in an overtly simplistic, if not to say naive fashion.

 

[ttfn]

How can it stand up to scrutiny when there is nothing there to scrutinise.

All religions are man-made that's why they are so amazingly simple, they were started when life was simple.

There is a God, where? everywhere, I can't see him, no one can, then how do you know he's there? because the bible tells me so, who wrote the bible? God, how do you know God wrote it? because God said he did....

Please tell me where I got it wrong?

When you speak like that it's clear you've had less experience with spirituality than others, that's just a consequence of society I guess it's not a fault of anyone particularly, more that in our limited experiences of life we may walk different paths and become apparently different in character, such as having different beliefs.

When you talk about 'experience with spirituality' do you mean I am not gullable?
If you mean I was not indoctrinated into believing in a God when I was young then you're right I was not, were you?

I think if you don't have a perception of God then you'll never know what it means to someone who does. When you say "everywhere at once", your mind struggles to comprehend that which is most simply stated as spirit.

Is a spirit a bit like smoke but without the smoke?

 

[Delphiki]

@ttfn: It goes like this:

1 - Illogical statement being presented as logic
2 - Circular bible argument
3 - You just don't understand or haven't seen the thing's I've seen, so 1 is true

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste awitch,

hmm...

evidence you say?

welll... the only sort of evidence i have for most of my views is subjective evidence and whilst certainly persuasive to me it most assuredly will not be for you.

i do have some intersubjective evidence, however, which should be equally persuasive to you and me alike alas it has nothing to do with satans or evil beings or anything of the sort it's simply that through the process of meditation you can change the physiology of your brain:
Meditation builds up the brain - life - 15 November 2005 - New Scientist

metta,

~v

 

[awitch]

After going this long and not finding any real hard evidence (shocker!), let's open it up to personal experience...

Any one have a personal experience with Satan or your religion's equivalent?