Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[BNR32FAN]

John3:16 would be one of those scriptures

If Paul said it, it came from Jesus...Peter said everything Paul wrote was scriptural.In fact, the Bible says we are to follow Paul as he follows Jesus.

Why did Jesus explain all those teachings if they are irrelevant. Why didn’t he just say believe and that’s it? We could’ve had a really short NT.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I’ve been debating with a guy for two weeks that says all you have to do is believe and you will be saved. Even if you turn away from God and start killing Christians and worshipping satan you will still go to heaven even if it’s against your will. Crazy

Sinning terribly and “ getting away with it” is not exclusive to the OSAS crowd. According to your thinking a Believer could do all of these things and escape Hell.All you have to do is repent before you die and everything will be fine.Your end-result is no different than mine.Quit pretending that it is.Some pay lip-service to Grace but in their heart of hearts they have made repentance their means of salvation.Repentance comes naturally to the Believer ,it’s a part of becoming like Christ, a gift from the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.It does not save, nor does it keep you saved.Faith in the Shed Blood ALONE is the narrow gate.The line there will be short when compared to the wide gate composed of those who will be trying to justify themselves before God with their works, their repentance,their will-power and any other used menstrual rags or if you prefer the prettied up version...” filthy rags”.
God ain’t interested—— better go with grace and faith in Christ’s finished work.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

There is really no wisdom in these statements, so you should tell us how you view them.

With all due respect if you have to have these quotes explained you will never understand them.Hopefully they will make sense to you sometime down the road.I am not trying to put you down.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Why did Jesus explain all those teachings if they are irrelevant. Why didn’t he just say believe and that’s it? We could’ve had a really short NT.

Or “make sure you keep your repentance tally up to date, seeing how your Eternal Destiny depends on this—- not grace or faith”

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Did I say that our works would save us? I clearly said that they do not. You are not understanding me very well.

And how do you dare say, "Step aside, Paul..."?

First, if you define "believe his Gospel" incorrectly, then you will find yourself guilty of believing a lie. Nothing of what I said is a false Gospel. Unless you are prepared to stand before the Judge, Christ our God, and boldly condemn me as a heretic, perhaps it is wise for you not to falsely accuse me of something I did not say.

I don't think I will convince you of anything. If you have misunderstood and misinterpreted my previous words, I have no doubts that you will most likely do the same thing with this post.


To the pure, all things are pure: but you choose to see my words in a skewed way.

The fictional remark to Paul was intended to be humorous.I am on,ly trying to show that ,like Paul I consider myself to be a wretched sinner—- just like you and everbòdy else in here. Whether they know it or not.Anybody who does not see themselves in that light has been blinded by Satan and lives in a fools paradise.You will find these types along the wide path.
I think you have added to the Gospel And don’t even know it.please check out this, google Harry IronsideGospel

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

This site addresses many serious heresies--e.g. Momonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and eternal security. I consider it particularly urgent to refute the eternal security heresy because of its status as the Gospel of cheap grace and because of the way it unintentionally condones backsliding. Let me illustrate.

A Baptist preacher in my home town gave an altar call after an evangelistic sermon. To motivate sinners to come forward, he bellowed: "If you come forward and sincerely ask Jesus to save you, you can curse God to His face as you leave here, and nothing can away your salvation!" OSASers try unsuccessfully to distance themselves from such examples. Beginning tomorrow night, I will present one Scripture each night that refutes this blasphemous heresy. So stay tuned and please engage.

A saved person could do this......but he won’t.
An unsaved person could say “ Lord Jesus , have mercy on me a sinner but he won’t. Saying these things with sincerity,of course.

 

[zoidar]

You should have started in verse 11, I speak to you Gentiles. He is not speaking to the Church of God.
Speaking to Gentiles, if they believe, they can be grafted into the church.
And then Paul closes with 29, The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Once God has given the gift of salvation He promised He wouldn't take it back.

I will focus on Rom 11 and we can discuss the other passages later if that's ok?

How could Paul be talking about unbelieving gentiles when he says:

"17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,"

Please explain ...

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• If you blaspheme The Holy Spirit you will Not be forgiven Ever. (Mark 3:29 Luke 12:10)

• If you receive the Mark of The Beast and worship The Beast, then you will Not be forgiven. (Revelation 14:9-11)



People can say they are saved until they blue in the face but If they do these these things they will Not be forgiven.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
• Revelation 21:8



Do you not know that The Unrighteous Will Not inherit the kingdom of God? Do Not Be Deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There Is Sin Leading To Death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
• 1 John 5:16-17

 

[Deadworm]

Doug Melven: [In Galatians] "Paul is not talking about salvation, he is talking about the benefits Christ gives believers.Like the fruit of the Spirit."

On the contrary, apart from Romans, it is Galatians where Paul presents his most sustained focus on justification by faith. Your reference to the fruit of the Spirit is irrelevant because he parallels this with a discussion of the danger of believers with the Spirit succumbing to "works of the flesh," whose resulting fate is that they forfeit their chance to "inherit the kingdom of God (5:19-21)." Their loss of salvation is also implied by Paul's charges: "Christ will be of no benefit to you...You have cut yourself off from Christ. You have fallen from grace (5:2, 4)."

(2) Your next comment sets up the second nail in the coffin of the heretical eternal security doctrine:

Doug: "And if we were to believe what you are saying, we would be trying to make sure we were doing good works to make sure we stay saved. That would be salvation by works."

First, you don't grasp the essential philosophical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions: Works are a necessary condition for salvation, but not a sufficient condition. God's grace and power are also needed: "What good is it, brethren, if you say you have faith, but do not have works? Can faith save you (James 2:14)?" The last question is rhetorical in that it assumes the answer: "Of course not! Faith alone cannot save you."
Second, you don't realize that in both Hebrew (amunah) and Greek (pistis), the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness." In other words, "works are built into the very biblical concept of faith.
Third, your sentence "we would be trying to make sure" expresses concern about redemptive insecurity. But for Paul such insecurity can be spiritually healthy: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:13)." We hope God is at work within us, but if we believers live in sin, we can lose our salvation.

 

[fat wee robin]

I am amazed at how anyone can think salvation is insecure. God made it so clear its all about what Jesus did for us and not our works. The gospels make this so clear as well as Romans where God contrast the difference between those who are trying to earn their way into heaven by doing works or good deeds or some form of obedience as apposed to faith in the God who justifies the ungodly.

Furthermore there are so many examples that make it clear that salvation is secure. We are predestined not to be saved but to become like Jesus. Salvation is eternal, which if you lost it, then God lied. Then there is the fact that we are already buried and raised with Christ. We are already a new creation now, not later if we continue doing good. The fact that God speaks of circumcision of the heart. Circumcision can not be undone, so neither can salvation.

One a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child. Even now the concept is not possible. Even if you don't like your parents you can never change the fact that you will always be the child of your parents.

So, there for the secure salvationist their god is more than willing to take their child that they claim to love to no end and throw them into a horrible burning fire that will never end. I don't know any normal or healthy parent that would ever throw their child into a fire for punishment. So if that is god, then his creation is better the god himself, and that god needs to learn what basic love is.

If Jesus died on the cross and suffered so he can guilt us and make us feel bad, then you can keep it. I have enough without that level of guilt.

But praise God, the true God freely forgives, justifies the ungodly, saves murders, rapist, incest people, adulters, drunkards, those who lived their whole life living for self and more. These categories are people in the Bible. The true God, loves us freely and at a level we could never fully imagine this side of eternity.

No matter what we do, we are always forgiven, loved and accepted. The insecure condemning god makes me want to live in sin and be as far away from him as possible. The unconditional loving God, makes me want to run to Him and when I sin, to run to Him all the more.

Love is a far better motivation to live right than threats of beatings and the worst torment ever, that being hell. People that love to preach insecure salvation do so because they are full of so much extreme pride because they think themselves perfect or close to it. Those who know salvation is secure realize that their is nothing in them that could ever save them or keep their salvation so they run to love and the God who freely justifies them.

Be Blessed.

More false theology leading souls astray.
God told us to LOVE our neighbour, without which we are not God's children .We might take years and never quite make it , but to not try at all means we cannot enter 'the kingdom of God' .

 

[fat wee robin]

That is old testament.

Be Blessed

So Jesus is the Old Testament now !!!!

 

[fat wee robin]

Doug Melven: [In Galatians] "Paul is not talking about salvation, he is talking about the benefits Christ gives believers.Like the fruit of the Spirit."

On the contrary, apart from Romans, it is Galatians where Paul presents his most sustained focus on justification by faith. Your reference to the fruit of the Spirit is irrelevant because he parallels this with a discussion of the danger of believers with the Spirit succumbing to "works of the flesh," whose resulting fate is that they forfeit their chance to "inherit the kingdom of God (5:19-21)." Their loss of salvation is also implied by Paul's charges: "Christ will be of no benefit to you...You have cut yourself off from Christ. You have fallen from grace (5:2, 4)."

(2) Your next comment sets up the second nail in the coffin of the heretical eternal security doctrine:

Doug: "And if we were to believe what you are saying, we would be trying to make sure we were doing good works to make sure we stay saved. That would be salvation by works."

First, you don't grasp the essential philosophical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions: Works are a necessary condit3Worksion for salvation, but not a sufficient condition. God's grace and power are also needed: "What good is it, brethren, if you say you have faith, but do not have works? Can faith save you (James 2:14)?" The last question is rhetorical in that it assumes the answer: "Of course not! Faith alone cannot save you."
Second, you don't realize that in both Hebrew (amunah) and Greek (pistis), the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness." In other words, "works are built into the very biblical concept of faith.
Third, your sentence "we would be trying to make sure" expresses concern about redemptive insecurity. But for Paul such insecurity can be spiritually healthy: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:13)." We hope God is at work within us, but if we believers live in sin, we can lose our salvation.

Thankyou for this clarity .
"Works are a neccessary condition for salvation , but not a sufficient condition,God's Grace and Power are also needed ".
AMEN

 

[zoidar]

Doug Melven: [In Galatians] "Paul is not talking about salvation, he is talking about the benefits Christ gives believers.Like the fruit of the Spirit."

On the contrary, apart from Romans, it is Galatians where Paul presents his most sustained focus on justification by faith. Your reference to the fruit of the Spirit is irrelevant because he parallels this with a discussion of the danger of believers with the Spirit succumbing to "works of the flesh," whose resulting fate is that they forfeit their chance to "inherit the kingdom of God (5:19-21)." Their loss of salvation is also implied by Paul's charges: "Christ will be of no benefit to you...You have cut yourself off from Christ. You have fallen from grace (5:2, 4)."

(2) Your next comment sets up the second nail in the coffin of the heretical eternal security doctrine:

Doug: "And if we were to believe what you are saying, we would be trying to make sure we were doing good works to make sure we stay saved. That would be salvation by works."

First, you don't grasp the essential philosophical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions: Works are a necessary condition for salvation, but not a sufficient condition. God's grace and power are also needed: "What good is it, brethren, if you say you have faith, but do not have works? Can faith save you (James 2:14)?" The last question is rhetorical in that it assumes the answer: "Of course not! Faith alone cannot save you."
Second, you don't realize that in both Hebrew (amunah) and Greek (pistis), the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness." In other words, "works are built into the very biblical concept of faith.
Third, your sentence "we would be trying to make sure" expresses concern about redemptive insecurity. But for Paul such insecurity can be spiritually healthy: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:13)." We hope God is at work within us, but if we believers live in sin, we can lose our salvation.

You say great things here, and I see God's wisdom in your words!

"First, you don't grasp the essential philosophical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions: Works are a necessary condition for salvation, but not a sufficient condition. God's grace and power are also needed"

You hit the nail right on the head! Bless you my brother!

Christ love!

/P

 

[fat wee robin]

I am amazed at how anyone can think salvation is insecure. God made it so clear its all about what Jesus did for us and not our works. The gospels make this so clear as well as Romans where God contrast the difference between those who are trying to earn their way into heaven by doing works or good deeds or some form of obedience as apposed to faith in the God who justifies the ungodly.

Furthermore there are so many examples that make it clear that salvation is secure. We are predestined not to be saved but to become like Jesus. Salvation is eternal, which if you lost it, then God lied. Then there is the fact that we are already buried and raised with Christ. We are already a new creation now, not later if we continue doing good. The fact that God speaks of circumcision of the heart. Circumcision can not be undone, so neither can salvation.

One a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child. Even now the concept is not possible. Even if you don't like your parents you can never change the fact that you will always be the child of your parents.

So, there for the secure salvationist their god is more than willing to take their child that they claim to love to no end and throw them into a horrible burning fire that will never end. I don't know any normal or healthy parent that would ever throw their child into a fire for punishment. So if that is god, then his creation is better the god himself, and that god needs to learn what basic love is.

If Jesus died on the cross and suffered so he can guilt us and make us feel bad, then you can keep it. I have enough without that level of guilt.

But praise God, the true God freely forgives, justifies the ungodly, saves murders, rapist, incest people, adulters, drunkards, those who lived their whole life living for self and more. These categories are people in the Bible. The true God, loves us freely and at a level we could never fully imagine this side of eternity.

No matter what we do, we are always forgiven, loved and accepted. The insecure condemning god makes me want to live in sin and be as far away from him as possible. The unconditional loving God, makes me want to run to Him and when I sin, to run to Him all the more.

Love is a far better motivation to live right than threats of beatings and the worst torment ever, that being hell. People that love to preach insecure salvation do so because they are full of so much extreme pride because they think themselves perfect or close to it. Those who know salvation is secure realize that their is nothing in them that could ever save them or keep their salvation so they run to love and the God who freely justifies them.

Be Blessed.

It is true that Love and encouragement ,not hate and Fear are better motivators .I did not live under that tent ,but I am so grateful and full of love for my Creator Lord for saving me from myself and the world, for for being there when there was no one else to heal me, that I work (oh what a terrible word , work ) hard to not fall into my old bad habits .
It gets easier with practice over time, and is no longer hard, as the benefits are great and more than worthwhile .

God made us originally in HIS image, so it is false theology to say that we are not capable of any effort of our own .

 

[zoidar]

It is true that Love and encouragement ,not hate and Fear are better motivators .I did not live under that tent ,but I am so grateful and full of love for my Creator Lord for saving me from myself and the world, for for being there when there was no one else to heal me, that I work (oh what a terrible word , work ) hard to not fall into my old bad habits .
It gets easier with practice over time, and is no longer hard, as the benefits are great and more than worthwhile .

God made us originally in HIS image, so it is false theology to say that we are not capable of any effort of our own .

Great to hear someone talk not only from theology, but also from experience.

 

[fat wee robin]

Excellent scriptures and explanations used by those who are refuting OSAS's false doctrine of men.

I'm a little surprised that this scripture didn't come up after 4 whole pages...

1 Timothy 4:1 and following

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Let's explain "departing from the faith":

Examples:
1- You cannot leave a building, unless you were in the building already to begin with.

2- You cannot leave the military, unless you had first taken the oath and have been sworn in to join the military first.

3- You cannot wash your clothes in water, unless you had first put them in the water to be washed.

Therefore, you cannot depart the faith, unless you had first been in the faith.

In conclusion, people who were once Christians can and have, fallen away and lost salvation.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

"3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

What is "turn from truth"?

Is that possibly someone who "departed from the faith"(1 Tim 4:1)?

So if that someone who is "not enduring sound doctrine" and "turns their ears from the truth" was not a Christian, what sense does this scripture have? Please explain.

Examples:

1- If I join the military, and I do NOT OBEY their rules and regs, I am "not enduring" their "doctrines" and I am "turning" away from that military organization.

Flip that in terms of Christians.

If I am baptized in Christ and I am now a child of God, and I do NOT OBEY the gospel, then I would be "not enduring sound doctrine" and I would be "turning my ears" from its truth.

2- If you are hired at your new job, you are now an employee of that job. This means you ARE indeed part of that company. If you were to "not endure" their rules and regs that companies have, you would be, in fact, turning away.

Flip this in terms of Christians.

If you just joined the family of Christians, into the body (Rom 12;1 Cor 12) and you are now a Christian, it means you are INDEED part of the body. You are a member. If you were to "not endure" sound doctrine from the gospel, it means then that you grabbed doctrine of men and you are turning away your ears from truth.

To summarize:

You cannot leave something, unless you were IN that something

Christian terms. You cannot depart from faith (Christians/believers) unless you were already IN that faith.

I agree with the last two posters. I can certainly see why people want to believe in OSAS, but I don't think the Bible supports that. My church believes in Grace Through Faith, but also believes that one can lose their salvation by falling away.

From the Church or God ?

 

[fat wee robin]

Great to hear someone talk not only from theology, but also from experience.

He also taught me many things that most are not ready for yet ,but some are so while I would rather
just fall in as the effort to combat entrenched ideas is disheartening .
You might say that it is the spiritual equivalent of changing the astronomy of the early church ,or being a great scientist like Eddison or many others like him, who guided by the Spirit of God pushed against profound ignorance to bring about the results of his God guided work .
All truth is considered evil by those who want comforting tales that require little effort on all levels .This I find among christians more than elsewhere as they forget how their forefathers fought change which eventually enhanced their lives and knowledge ,as they are doing now, resisting in every way to open up to the truth of how God judges us many times ,not once .

In order to know, one needs to die to all false ideas , to take the risk as some do as I did , and He brought me back with new knowledge .
I write this for those who are not in the dark ,as it is ignored by the stubborn ones .

 

[Doug Melven]

How could Paul be talking about unbelieving gentiles when he says:

"17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,"

Please explain ...

In 1 Corinthians 10:32 Pauls shows there are 3 groups of people.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Jews = National Israel.
Gentiles = Everybody else
Church of God = People from both groups who have accepted Christ.
In Galatians 3:28 Paul says There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
So once you are in Christ your old definition of Jew or Gentile is gone.

In Romans 11:11 Paul says he is speaking this passage to Gentiles, not the church of God.
This passage is for Gentiles.