Eph 2:8-9

[Hammster]

In the 1 Cor 2 context, it is food for natural men, those who are not mature enough to handle the spiritual things spoke of among the mature (2:6)

Like what? And if it isn't spiritual, what benefit it is?

 

[themuzicman]

Like what? And if it isn't spiritual, what benefit it is?

I think you're starting to confuse how Paul is using "Spiritual" here with how he may use it elsewhere.

In this case, "spiritual men" refers to those who are mature in Christ, excluding the Corinthians, who were immature.

Milk is the simple teachings of Christianity, including humility, unity, having a servant's heart, and the kinds of things the Corinthians were missing, making them unready to hear the wisdom spoken of among the mature.

Clearly these things have benefit, although in this context, Paul is not including them in the "spiritual things" he's talking about

 

[Hammster]

I think you're starting to confuse how Paul is using "Spiritual" here with how he may use it elsewhere.

In this case, "spiritual men" refers to those who are mature in Christ, excluding the Corinthians, who were immature.

Milk is the simple teachings of Christianity, including humility, unity, having a servant's heart, and the kinds of things the Corinthians were missing, making them unready to hear the wisdom spoken of among the mature.

Clearly these things have benefit, although in this context, Paul is not including them in the "spiritual things" he's talking about

Actually, I don't think I'm the one who is confused. But, with that kind of biblical theology, you should never criticize Calvinists again.

 

[themuzicman]

Actually, I don't think I'm the one who is confused. But, with that kind of biblical theology, you should never criticize Calvinists again.

I suppose you want me to apologize for taking my Calvinist colored glasses off before studying the bible, huh?

 

[Hammster]

I suppose you want me to apologize for taking my Calvinist colored glasses off before studying the bible, huh?

No, you keep doing whatever it is you do. I've been accused of twisting scripture and saying that certain words have different meanings for Calvinists. But a non-believing, unsaved Christian? That's priceless.

 

[Shulamite]

No, you keep doing whatever it is you do. I've been accused of twisting scripture and saying that certain words have different meanings for Calvinists. But a non-believing, unsaved Christian? That's priceless.

Ditto. I have been accused of twisting scripure. I could quote over and over again scriptures from the new and old testament that confirm God's Sovreignty in salvation and election and those very scriptures will be thrown back at me and then I'm told that I'm twisting things, not reading it correctly and I've been told that I am not to interpret it "directly" or "at face value".....

Hmmmm..... so it would appear that calvinists are accused of taking the Word AT IT'S WORD. Well..... okay!

 

[themuzicman]

No, you keep doing whatever it is you do. I've been accused of twisting scripture and saying that certain words have different meanings for Calvinists. But a non-believing, unsaved Christian? That's priceless.

Um.. I never said non-believing, unsaved Christian. I think you're imposing that on me....

 

[Hammster]

Um.. I never said non-believing, unsaved Christian. I think you're imposing that on me....

When I asked, "What does Scriptue call these "tweeners", the ones between a natural man who cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and ones who are believers?" you said they were immature Christians. They were no longer non-Christians, but not sealed. So what am I supposed to make of that?

 

[Easystreet]

No, you keep doing whatever it is you do. I've been accused of twisting scripture and saying that certain words have different meanings for Calvinists. But a non-believing, unsaved Christian? That's priceless.

When those skewed glasses were offered to they wound up in file 13.

 

[themuzicman]

When I asked, "What does Scriptue call these "tweeners", the ones between a natural man who cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and ones who are believers?" you said they were immature Christians. They were no longer non-Christians, but not sealed. So what am I supposed to make of that?

I never said that they were sealed. In fact, they are Christians. Just immature ones.

Again, you seem to be imposing things on me that I haven't said.

 

[Hammster]

I never said that they were sealed.

And I never said that you did.

In fact, they are Christians. Just immature ones.

And this is the answer I got when asking about what to call someone who has heard the gospel, has faith, but doesn't believe. They have yet to excersise this gift of faith and put their trust in Christ for salvation. So in your theology, they might not. But this is the group of people you called immature Christians.

So I don't think I am imposing. Maybe you just aren't making the point that you think you are.

 

[themuzicman]

And I never said that you did.

Typo.. weren't sealed. My bad.

And this is the answer I got when asking about what to call someone who has heard the gospel, has faith, but doesn't believe.

You can't have faith and not believe. That's like saying you're soaked in water, but you're not wet. When you believe, you have faith.

If you're talking about the ability to believe, everyone has the ability to believe in something, but no one can believe in Christ until they are taught, which is effectively the preaching of the gospel. (The Jews were an exception, in that they were blinded so that Christ would be crucified.. see John 12).

They have yet to excersise this gift of faith and put their trust in Christ for salvation. So in your theology, they might not. But this is the group of people you called immature Christians.

No.. Immature Christians are those who believe, but haven't matured.

So I don't think I am imposing. Maybe you just aren't making the point that you think you are.

The idea of a "tweener" was a bit odd until you brought up 1 Cor 2, where those who already believed weren't mature enough to receive the things spoken of among the mature.

 

[bling]

. (The Jews were an exception, in that they were blinded so that Christ would be crucified.. see John 12).

.

This makes it sound like God blinded them against their own wills. Jesus himself as the light could blind those dwelling in darkness not wanting to inter the light.
Was it not their pride that caused Jesus to blind them?
Jesus was not the Messiah they pride fully expected and desired.
I would not put the “blame” on Jesus or God for their being blind, because it was their fault; they could not see the Messiah in Jesus. Their pride in the Messiah of the Jews to lead them to greatness, blinded them to see the truth in Jesus, but that is not Jesus’ fault?

 

[themuzicman]

This makes it sound like God blinded them against their own wills. Jesus himself as the light could blind those dwelling in darkness not wanting to inter the light.
Was it not their pride that caused Jesus to blind them?
Jesus was not the Messiah they pride fully expected and desired.
I would not put the “blame” on Jesus or God for their being blind, because it was their fault; they could not see the Messiah in Jesus. Their pride in the Messiah of the Jews to lead them to greatness, blinded them to see the truth in Jesus, but that is not Jesus’ fault?

Wellll..... John 12 cites some prophecy that says that they were blinded...

We might say that they blinded themselves because of the circumstances brought about by God, but that's the best we can do.

 

[Hammster]

Now we are getting somewhere. Sorry for the confusion. Yours is a bit different and I'm sure we were talking past each other.

If you're talking about the ability to believe, everyone has the ability to believe in something, but no one can believe in Christ until they are taught, which is effectively the preaching of the gospel. (The Jews were an exception, in that they were blinded so that Christ would be crucified.. see John 12).

Okay, just so I don't jump the gun, does everyone who is taught then believe?

 

[themuzicman]

Now we are getting somewhere. Sorry for the confusion. Yours is a bit different and I'm sure we were talking past each other.

It's going to happen. We'll get through it.

Okay, just so I don't jump the gun, does everyone who is taught then believe?

No. John 6:45 clearly states that only those who hear and learn (and those Greek words can be translated "obey" and "experience") come to Christ.

 

[Hammster]

It's going to happen. We'll get through it.



No. John 6:45 clearly states that only those who hear and learn (and those Greek words can be translated "obey" and "experience") come to Christ.

What is the relationship between being taught in post 72 (the prerequisite for believing in Christ), and hearing and obeying in post 76? Is it the same thing?

 

[themuzicman]

What is the relationship between being taught in post 72 (the prerequisite for believing in Christ), and hearing and obeying in post 76? Is it the same thing?

Being taught comes before hearing and learning. Jesus does not describe here, nor does Scripture describe elsewhere, any other intervention necessary (with the exception of Jews described in Rom 11, I believe) for one to be able to hear and learn.

 

[Hammster]

Being taught comes before hearing and learning. Jesus does not describe here, nor does Scripture describe elsewhere, any other intervention necessary (with the exception of Jews described in Rom 11, I believe) for one to be able to hear and learn.

Cool. So when does someone receive the ability to believe in Christ?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Cool. So when does someone receive the ability to believe in Christ?

When they are regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit.