Enoch and Elijah

[LivingWordUnity]

Here are some excerpts about Enoch and Elijah from a book that Rhamiel told me about:

"These two witnesses will be two strange men, appearing suddenly amidst the world, without anyone being able to say of what birth or origin they are, nor from what place or family that have come....No tongue can express the sheer amazement that will grip mankind at the sight of these two men, strangers to our passions and affairs, one of them having lived six thousand years, the other thirty centuries, in some ethereal region or other....What sort of appearance and bearing will these strangers from another age present? What venerable majesty will shine forth from their persons? What inspired language will flow from their lips? Holy Scripture does not tell us. It teaches us that they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth, their garments and features bearing the marks of humility and penance."

- Fr. Charles Arminjon, The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, pp. 52-53

On the book:

Also see:
Genesis 5:21-24 (Enoch)
Malachi 4 (Elijah)
Revelation 11 (The Two Witnesses)
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_26051999.htmlHumanity's journey to the Father

 

[MikeK]

Ooh, I loves me a carefully-selected, vague prophesy.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Ooh, I loves me a carefully-selected, vague prophesy.

You are actually the one being vague.

 

[pdudgeon]

Ooh, I loves me a carefully-selected, vague prophesy.

it is a very distinct and loving prophecy, given by God to give hope to the Jews in the latter days.

these two men will have impeccable credentials, they will have the knowledge to answer all questions, and they will be sent from God to a specific people at a specific time,
with a specific purpose, to fulfill the number of Jews who at last will recognize their long-awaited Messiah.

and having fulfilled this mission, they will be martyred.
and the Jewish people who do not believe will celebrate their death, and give gifts to each other to celebrate this.

now here's a question for you. when is the one time of the year when Jews celebrate and give each other gifts?
when you find that time, start looking to see if there have been any stories about two notable Jews being martyred together.
and do that each year.

 

[MikeK]

I found lots of years with notable martyred Jews. Should I figure blood moons into this?

 

[pdudgeon]

I found lots of years with notable martyred Jews. Should I figure blood moons into this?

martyred together in the same place and time? in Jerusalem?
and don't forget about the gifts...

 

[Rhamiel]

Ooh, I loves me a carefully-selected, vague prophesy.

I recommended a book by a French priest from the 1880's

LWU seemed to like the book

the section from the book that LWU quoted is dealing with the topic of the Two Witnesses

why not talk about Catholic stuff? why do you feel the need to be so negative to others?
if you do not like to talk about the book of revelations, well then there is no real reason for you to post in this thread?

 

[Michie]

Interesting. Is this book easily found?

Here are some excerpts about Enoch and Elijah from a book that Rhamiel told me about:

"These two witnesses will be two strange men, appearing suddenly amidst the world, without anyone being able to say of what birth or origin they are, nor from what place or family that have come....No tongue can express the sheer amazement that will grip mankind at the sight of these two men, strangers to our passions and affairs, one of them having lived six thousand years, the other thirty centuries, in some ethereal region or other....What sort of appearance and bearing will these strangers from another age present? What venerable majesty will shine forth from their persons? What inspired language will flow from their lips? Holy Scripture does not tell us. It teaches us that they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth, their garments and features bearing the marks of humility and penance."

- Fr. Charles Arminjon, The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, pp. 52-53

Also see:
Malachi 4
Revelation 11

 

[Rhamiel]

i just ordered it at barns and nobles

it was reprinted in English in 2008 I think?

 

[Michie]

Thanks Rhamiel!

i just ordered it at barns and nobles

it was reprinted in English in 2008 I think?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Interesting. Is this book easily found?

I purchased my book from Amazon.

Here's something that St. John Chrysostom said about the two witnesses (4th paragraph):

Ver. 10, 11, 12. “For because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved; for this cause God will send them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

“That they might be judged.” He does not say, that they might be punished; for even before this they were about to be punished; but “that they might be condemned,” that is, at the dreadful Seat of Judgment, in order that they might be without excuse. “Who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” He calls Christ, “the Love of the Truth.” “For because,” says he, “they received not the love of the truth.” For He was both, and came for the sake of both, both as loving men, and on behalf of things that were true.

“But had pleasure,” he says, “in unrighteousness.” For he came to the destruction of men and to injure them. For what will he not then work? He will change and confound all things, both by his commandments, and by the fear of him. He will be terrible in every way, from his power, from his cruelty, from his unlawful commandments.

But fear not. “In those that perish” he will have his strength. For Elijah too will then come to give confidence to the faithful, and this Christ says; "Elijah comes, and shall restore all things." Matthew 17:11 Therefore it is said, “In the spirit and power of Elijah.” Luke 1:17 For he neither wrought signs nor wonders, as Elijah did. For “John,” it is said, “did no miracle, but all things which John spoke of this Man were true.” How then was it “in the spirit and power of Elijah”? That is, he will take upon him the same ministry. As the one was the forerunner of His first Coming, so will the other be of His second and glorious Coming, and for this he is reserved. Let us not therefore fear. He has calmed the minds of the hearers. He causes them no longer to think present things dreadful but worthy of thankfulness. Wherefore he has added,

Ver. 13. “But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

How unto salvation? By sanctifying you through the Spirit. For these are the things that are the efficient causes of our salvation. It is nowhere of works, nowhere of righteous deeds, but through belief of the truth. Here again, “in” is used for “through.” “And through sanctification of the Spirit,” he says,

Ver. 14. “Whereunto He called you through our Gospel to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This too is no little thing, if Christ considers our salvation His glory. For it is the glory of the Friend of man that they that are saved should be many. Great then is our Lord, if the Holy Spirit so desires our salvation. Why did he not say faith first? Because even after sanctification we have yet need of much faith, that we may not be shaken. Do you see how He shows that nothing is of themselves, but all of God?

Ver. 15. “So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word, or by Epistle of ours.”

Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther. Here he shows that there were many who were shaken.

- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 4 on Second Thessalonians​

 

[MikeK]

I recommended a book by a French priest from the 1880's

LWU seemed to like the book

the section from the book that LWU quoted is dealing with the topic of the Two Witnesses

why not talk about Catholic stuff? why do you feel the need to be so negative to others?
if you do not like to talk about the book of revelations, well then there is no real reason for you to post in this thread?

I am talking about Catholic stuff. The fact that many prophesies have been vague, have been misinterpretted, and a whole lot that have been made by good men in sincerity that turned out to be apparent delusions rather than prophesies. Focussing so much attention, as it has been in this forum, on end times prophesies is unhealthy. We are commanded primarily to love and serve God and to love and serve our neighbors. Focussing on commets and blood moons and trying to piece together prophesies told by people who may or may not actually be speaking literally is, I suppose, a fine pursuit in one's down time, after a long day of service. My impression, judging from the lack of interest by many here in conversations about how we could improve our service, is that the focus of many is on something other than what Christ desires. My position is entirely consistent with that of the Church.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I am talking about Catholic stuff. The fact that many prophesies have been vague, have been misinterpretted, and a whole lot that have been made by good men in sincerity that turned out to be apparent delusions rather than prophesies. Focussing so much attention, as it has been in this forum, on end times prophesies is unhealthy. We are commanded primarily to love and serve God and to love and serve our neighbors. Focussing on commets and blood moons and trying to piece together prophesies told by people who may or may not actually be speaking literally is, I suppose, a fine pursuit in one's down time, after a long day of service. My impression, judging from the lack of interest by many here in conversations about how we could improve our service, is that the focus of many is on something other than what Christ desires. My position is entirely consistent with that of the Church.

The fact that there have been some prophecies that are false doesn't mean that all prophecies are false. The one that you are rejecting, mocking, and calling "vague" happens to be a prophecy that was promised by our Lord Himself and which has also been a traditional belief of the Church about what would happen before the Second Coming. You rejected and mocked the book in the OP with a rude comment and a general dismissal of prophecy. But the book happens to have been a favorite of St. Therese of Lisieux, a Doctor of the Church. Everything in my beliefs is in perfect harmony with the Catholic faith. There's nothing wrong with a Catholic believing that the Second Coming may be near. I'm in the company of great saints with that belief. But your extremely negative attitude about prophecy which you have exhibited tells me that you see Catholicism as works based and only useful insofar as it can be used in achieving worldly political goals.

 

[MikeK]

.

You say that a lot. What does it mean?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

You say that a lot. What does it mean?

I did that because I was rushed and had something else to do, so I decided to come back to it later. Why do you mock me for making a thread that teaches about a doctrine of the Catholic faith? Do you believe that OBOB should only be for discussing politics and worldly pursuits and points of view?

 

[MikeK]

I did that because I was rushed and had something else to do, so I decided to come back to it later. Why do you mock me for making a thread that teaches about a doctrine of the Catholic faith? Do you believe that OBOB should only be for discussing politics and worldly pursuits and points of view?

I didn't engage in any sort of mockery. I shared my observation that end times prophesies are a hotter topic of discussion here than following Christ's primary commands to us is.

 

[pdudgeon]

I am talking about Catholic stuff. The fact that many prophesies have been vague, have been misinterpretted, and a whole lot that have been made by good men in sincerity that turned out to be apparent delusions rather than prophesies. Focussing so much attention, as it has been in this forum, on end times prophesies is unhealthy. We are commanded primarily to love and serve God and to love and serve our neighbors. Focussing on commets and blood moons and trying to piece together prophesies told by people who may or may not actually be speaking literally is, I suppose, a fine pursuit in one's down time, after a long day of service. My impression, judging from the lack of interest by many here in conversations about how we could improve our service, is that the focus of many is on something other than what Christ desires. My position is entirely consistent with that of the Church.

your post reminds me of the time that Jesus visited the house of Mary and Martha, and their bother, Lazarus.
Martha was so busy running around doing things and serving everyone. She saw Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus, listening
to him and she became irate. She complained about this to Jesus, and He was the one who set Martha straight.

Loving God is the first thing that we have to do. Our service to others then is born from that love, and is natural result and expression of that love.
If we try and reverse the process--serving first and loving last--then we are serving from our own strength and for our own glory.

service to others runs the same way a car does.
you have to fill the tank with gas first, before the car will go anywhere.
Cars are designed to run on gas, just as we are designed to run on the love of God.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I didn't engage in any sort of mockery.

You clearly did when you said:

Ooh, I loves me a carefully-selected, vague prophesy.

Do you have problems remembering things?

 

[mark46]

I did that because I was rushed and had something else to do, so I decided to come back to it later. Why do you mock me for making a thread that teaches about a doctrine of the Catholic faith? Do you believe that OBOB should only be for discussing politics and worldly pursuits and points of view?

Please show me where the Church (in the past 50 years) has stated that we are in the end times, or has told us that ANY of these prophesies are the teachings of the faith that should be followed.

 

[mark46]

your post reminds me of the time that Jesus visited the house of Mary and Martha, and their bother, Lazarus.
Martha was so busy running around doing things and serving everyone. She saw Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus, listening
to him and she became irate. She complained about this to Jesus, and He was the one who set Martha straight.

Loving God is the first thing that we have to do. Our service to others then is born from that love, and is natural result and expression of that love.
If we try and reverse the process--serving first and loving last--then we are serving from our own strength and for our own glory.

service to others runs the same way a car does.
you have to fill the tank with gas first, before the car will go anywhere.
Cars are designed to run on gas, just as we are designed to run on the love of God.

This is exactly the point. You and others keep on telling us that these prophesies and the fact that we are in the end times is the teaching of the faith, the teachings that we should rely on for our strength. Show me where the greatest theologian of our times (Pope Benedict) told us to pay attention to these teachings.