Earth Tilt Question

[Papias]

Standing up wrote:

So, if we leave out a global flood or an impact, we are left with the idea that the earth has always been tilted (off axis). Seasons come and go.

and

Juve wrote:

On the opposite, I suggested that an impact is not needed.

Juve & stanidng up, you do understand why, before a hypothetical Theia impact or some other similar change, the Earth's axis was unlikely to have had a tilt, right? It's not that I'm just assuming it was veritical as a default position, but rather because there is a scientific reason it was such.

So are either of you proposing a more likely cause of the tilt than the impact hypothesis? If so, what is it?

Thanks-

Papias

 

[Papias]

Juve wrote:

How about change your concept on the Global Flood a little bit by not taking it as a cause, but as a consequence of something bigger?

My concept of the global flood of genesis is that it is symbolic, not literal. It is obvious from geology and from basic logic that no global flood ever happened. There are so many ludicrous aspects to a global flood that they are hard to list. Taken literally, the flood story belittles both God and Genesis. I don't see it as a consequence nor a cause, because it isn't a real event.

So let me get this straight - you do think that a global flood happened, right? During a time when humans existed?

What about the whole story of Noah? Literally true?

And if so, what kind of "something bigger" were you thinking of?

Papias

 

[Standing Up]

Standing up wrote:



and

Juve wrote:


Juve & stanidng up, you do understand why, before a hypothetical Theia impact or some other similar change, the Earth's axis was unlikely to have had a tilt, right? It's not that I'm just assuming it was veritical as a default position, but rather because there is a scientific reason it was such.

So are either of you proposing a more likely cause of the tilt than the impact hypothesis? If so, what is it?

Thanks-

Papias

Why a vertical position as default? If a tilt didn't change much? IOW why not a tilt from the get go?

And yes, please couch answers within the context of Genesis generally. IOW, if we can't agree at least on some basics, then we won't get far in the conversation. Literal 7 days or span of time? Not sure it matters to the tilt question, but generally.

Most cultures have some legend of earth flood, suggesting a common ancestor.

 

[Papias]

standing up wrote:

Why a vertical position as default? If a tilt didn't change much? IOW why not a tilt from the get go?

Before I answer, maybe we should ask a geologist? After all, we've got someone here who's field of expertise is the earth's history...... Juve, what do you say?

Most cultures have some legend of earth flood, suggesting a common ancestor.

Well, people of all cultures, around the world, tend to settle around rivers, for food, water, irrigation, transportation, and so on.

Rivers flood from time to time.

So of course nearly all cultures will have "giant flood" stories.

How could it be any other way, except maybe in a desert world, like in "Dune", or Tatooine?

Papias

 

[lucaspa]

Most cultures have some legend of earth flood, suggesting a common ancestor.

Richard Andre did a comprehensive collection of myths about the floods. It was Die Flutsagen: Ehnthographisch Btrachtet, 1891. Andre had nearly 90 deluge traditions. Of these, 26 arose from the Babylonian story and 43 were independent. He noted a lack of deluge traditions in Arabia, Japan, northern and central Asia, Africa, and much of Europe. He concluded that not everyone had descended from survivors of a single deluge, otherwise the traditions would all have been much more identical and there would be deluge traditions in every society instead of a minority.

It's very possible that the Noah story -- and the Babylonian story it was modified from -- have their roots in a very real local flood. There is considerable evidence in archeological digs in the Tigris-Euprhates Valley for some very severe local floods. At least one of them -- from the change of pottery and other artifacts -- wiped out the local civilization.

But a world-wide flood? No. A world-wide flood was falsified before 1831 and the data that falsified it then is still there.

 

[lucaspa]

And yes, please couch answers within the context of Genesis generally.

Which story in Genesis? There are two separate flood stories that have been intertwined in Genesis 6-8. They contradict on some critical details (like the number of animals taken on the Ark). There are 3 creation stories in Genesis, and they contradict on major points (like the number of days of creation).

Genesis is meant to tell theological truths, not earth history.

 

[Standing Up]

Richard Andre did a comprehensive collection of myths about the floods. It was Die Flutsagen: Ehnthographisch Btrachtet, 1891. Andre had nearly 90 deluge traditions. Of these, 26 arose from the Babylonian story and 43 were independent. He noted a lack of deluge traditions in Arabia, Japan, northern and central Asia, Africa, and much of Europe. He concluded that not everyone had descended from survivors of a single deluge, otherwise the traditions would all have been much more identical and there would be deluge traditions in every society instead of a minority.

It's very possible that the Noah story -- and the Babylonian story it was modified from -- have their roots in a very real local flood. There is considerable evidence in archeological digs in the Tigris-Euprhates Valley for some very severe local floods. At least one of them -- from the change of pottery and other artifacts -- wiped out the local civilization.

But a world-wide flood? No. A world-wide flood was falsified before 1831 and the data that falsified it then is still there.

Thanks for the info. 90 stories versus how many cultures w/out the tradition? 900? 9? 90? What % is 90 of? 1000s? By 1831 how many cultures after some 5000 years had lost the tradition? The apparent fact of 90 may be a very strong indication.

 

[Standing Up]

Which story in Genesis? There are two separate flood stories that have been intertwined in Genesis 6-8. They contradict on some critical details (like the number of animals taken on the Ark). There are 3 creation stories in Genesis, and they contradict on major points (like the number of days of creation).

Genesis is meant to tell theological truths, not earth history.

Okay. So any comments about the earth tilt?

Prior to the tilt (if the earth was at some point not tilted) would the lunar and solar cycles coincide? Afterwards we know an annual moon phase as
354 days and a lunar cycle as 365.25 days.

Comments anyone?

 

[Standing Up]

standing up wrote:


Before I answer, maybe we should ask a geologist? After all, we've got someone here who's field of expertise is the earth's history...... Juve, what do you say?-snip-

No games please. Just answer, unless you have no info.

 

[juvenissun]

Which story in Genesis? There are two separate flood stories that have been intertwined in Genesis 6-8. They contradict on some critical details (like the number of animals taken on the Ark). There are 3 creation stories in Genesis, and they contradict on major points (like the number of days of creation).

Genesis is meant to tell theological truths, not earth history.

I don't think you can do one will enough without doing another. That is where the problem is.

 

[juvenissun]

standing up wrote:


Before I answer, maybe we should ask a geologist? After all, we've got someone here who's field of expertise is the earth's history...... Juve, what do you say?


Well, people of all cultures, around the world, tend to settle around rivers, for food, water, irrigation, transportation, and so on.

Rivers flood from time to time.

So of course nearly all cultures will have "giant flood" stories.

How could it be any other way, except maybe in a desert world, like in "Dune", or Tatooine?

Papias

I am not a geophysicist or an astronomer. I don't know if the earth was tilted at the beginning. If it were not, it was tilted later, It it were, it could be tilted again.

------

Do you know Tibetan people also have legend of flood? I could not figure it out. That should be a place of no flood.

 

[Assyrian]

IIRC a lot of Tibetans were killed a few years ago in floods when particularly heavy snows thawed.

 

[Papias]

Standing up wrote:

Why a vertical position as default? ..... why not a tilt from the get go?

All of the planets orbit in the same direction (counter-clockwise from the north), and all their orbits lie in a flat plane (like on the surface of a DVD). Further, nearly all of the moons orbit in this direction, and only one planet rotates in the opposite direction, and the sun rotates in this direction.

All of this (along with other evidence) points to the solar system forming from a single rotating molecular cloud. With the Earth forming from a rotating molecular cloud (of which we know the initial plane of rotation from the ecliptic), the initial axis of rotation would of course be 90 degrees to that plane. Hence, the initial axis of the Earth didn't have the 23.5 degree tilt it has today.



This also is consistent with Genesis - "without form and void" sounds more like 0 tilt than it does a 23.5 degree tilt, though with symbolic language like this, many interpretations are possible, and we need to look to God's other revelation (like the agreement of the rotations) to fill out the picture.


Papias


P.S. About the moon - since the moon's formation, tidal forces have been slowly increasing it's orbit, about an inch or so a year. Hence, millions of years ago it was closer, and the "month" was significantly shorter. Because of this ongoing change, I wouldn't attach to much significance to the length of the lunar cycle at any given time.

 

[juvenissun]

IIRC a lot of Tibetans were killed a few years ago in floods when particularly heavy snows thawed.

That is what I thought. It must be something like a flash flood in a specified valley.
But I still do not understand the mechanism of the flood. For example, how could the snow melt so fast? Flash flood is usually caused by stormy rain.

 

[lucaspa]

All of this (along with other evidence) points to the solar system forming from a single rotating molecular cloud. With the Earth forming from a rotating molecular cloud (of which we know the initial plane of rotation from the ecliptic), the initial axis of rotation would of course be 90 degrees to that plane.

That does not follow. The initial axis of rotation could be anything. How many planets in the solar system have no axial tilt? None. Even Jupiter has a slight axial tilt. Both Mars and Saturn have axial tilts close to that of earth, while Uranus has one of 97 degrees. Are you postulating impacts for all the planets? What could possibly impact Saturn to give it an axial tilt a little larger than earth's?

This also is consistent with Genesis - "without form and void" sounds more like 0 tilt than it does a 23.5 degree tilt, though with symbolic language like this, many interpretations are possible,

Are you seriously trying to read the Bible as a science book? "without form and void" is no reference to tilt, but is a setup so that God can create the initial conditions that correspond to the first Babylonian gods in the Enuma Elish.

 

[lucaspa]

Thanks for the info. 90 stories versus how many cultures w/out the tradition? 900? 9? 90? What % is 90 of? 1000s?

More than 90 without a flood. Think of how many cultures there are on earth -- thousands.

By 1831 how many cultures after some 5000 years had lost the tradition? The apparent fact of 90 may be a very strong indication.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood. A world-wide flood would leave evidence in geology. By 1831 scientists (all of whom were Christian and many of whom were ministers) realized that instead of finding evidence of a flood in geology, they instead found evidence that could not possibly be there if a world-wide flood had taken place. Therefore there was evidence saying a world-wide flood had never taken place. The first quote in my signature is the Christian response to this information.

 

[lucaspa]

So, if we leave out a global flood or an impact, we are left with the idea that the earth has always been tilted (off axis). Seasons come and go.

Does this idea matter one way or the other? The dinosaur extinction theories might be impacted?

The idea that the earth has always been tilted does not matter to anything. The current theories on the KT extinction event (dinosaurs among others) do not involve a change of earth's axial tilt. One theory does involve a very large meteor impact (at Chixulub Mexico).

It seems that a change in axial tilt is being invoked as a cause of a global flood. However, such a flood would leave consequences in geology. Instead, we find consequences that could not be there if there had been a global flood. There has not been a global flood in geological history.

There is a theory that the moon was formed from a giant impact on the earth more than 4 billion years ago: The Origin of the Moon

 

[lucaspa]

For example, how could the snow melt so fast? Flash flood is usually caused by stormy rain.

Volcanic action? A welling of magma close to the surface? Or heavy rains in an abnormally warm spring or summer such that the rains fell upon a glacier, causing excessive snow melt. There are possibilities.

 

[Papias]

lucaspa wrote:

That does not follow. The initial axis of rotation could be anything. How many planets in the solar system have no axial tilt? None.

Um, I think we may be miscommunicating due to the vagueness of the term "initial". In the formation of the solar system from the protoplanetary disc, coalescing clouds will have an axis of rotation like that of the the disk (hence, 0), but as impacts occur, will deviate. So if you don't start your "initial" until after most of the impacts have occured, then you are right, the initial axis of rotation will deviate. Surely you are not disputing the nebular hypothesis?

Are you postulating impacts for all the planets? What could possibly impact Saturn to give it an axial tilt a little larger than earth's?

Yes. All the planets would have gone through a violent initial accretition, regardless of size. I doubt we disagree there, right?

I've read your posts, and we usually agree. BTW, I mentioned the giant impact hypothesis long ago, and also the important and obvious fact that there is no geological evidence for a global flood. You might want to go back and see the discussion around post #114 or so.

Are you seriously trying to read the Bible as a science book? "without form and void" is no reference to tilt,

Hey, cut me some slack. I know it's not a science book, I'm simply trying to make science accessible to those who insist on seeing their chosen Bible as a science book. Note that I was careful to point out that this is not the only interpretation - because you and I both know it is not an intentional reference to the tilt. Rather, I see it as a passage that if one needs a place to think about the tilt, will work for one.

Papias

 

[juvenissun]

The idea that the earth has always been tilted does not matter to anything. The current theories on the KT extinction event (dinosaurs among others) do not involve a change of earth's axial tilt. One theory does involve a very large meteor impact (at Chixulub Mexico).

It seems that a change in axial tilt is being invoked as a cause of a global flood. However, such a flood would leave consequences in geology. Instead, we find consequences that could not be there if there had been a global flood. There has not been a global flood in geological history.

There is a theory that the moon was formed from a giant impact on the earth more than 4 billion years ago: The Origin of the Moon

Finally, I read something new. What would that be?