Does man's faith merit or earn his salvation?

[AndOne]

Maybe so, but can you explain exactly how his logic is inaccurate? How would you have explained to him that his logic was faulty? After all, if he doesn't have libertarian free will then doesn't that mean he is doing what God has ordained for him to do each time he sins sexually? Could he have willingly resisted that sexual sin under your premise? If so, how?

If I may jump in here (and yes I've been following the thread). You are assumming the typical "Calvinists believe people are robots" presupposition here.

The reaons his logic is faulty is because he has a skewed understanding of Calvinism. It's not a matter of free will - its the fact that ALL men are fallen and are predisposed to sin. Every one of us WANTS to sin - that's the bottom line. It makes up the very fabric of our will - and left to our freewill we WILL sin because its what we all want to do.

The only way this guy (or any one of us) can resist sexual sin is through God. That's the bottom line. That is why (as Peter says) we must constantly check to ensure our election and calling is sure.

Seriously - its the Calvinists who I see calling for lives of holiness among believers - more so than any arminians that I have seen. Check out Paul Tripp's stuff or how about the Puritans of old who stressed lives of holiness like no other. They did this because they realized through their Calvinist roots that sanctification was a process of the faith and believed that God had the power to not only save but to change lives.

 

[DeaconDean]

If I may jump in here (and yes I've been following the thread). You are assumming the typical "Calvinists believe people are robots" presupposition here.

The reaons his logic is faulty is because he has a skewed understanding of Calvinism. It's not a matter of free will - its the fact that ALL men are fallen and are predisposed to sin. Every one of us WANTS to sin - that's the bottom line. It makes up the very fabric of our will - and left to our freewill we WILL sin because its what we all want to do.

The only way this guy (or any one of us) can resist sexual sin is through God. That's the bottom line. That is why (as Peter says) we must constantly check to ensure our election and calling is sure.

Seriously - its the Calvinists who I see calling for lives of holiness among believers - more so than any arminians that I have seen. Check out Paul Tripp's stuff or how about the Puritans of old who stressed lives of holiness like no other. They did this because they realized through their Calvinist roots that sanctification was a process of the faith and believed that God had the power to not only save but to change lives.

Amen, well said.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[dcyates]

So Calvinism is keeping atheists from becoming Christians?

'Fraid so.

 

[Hammster]

'Fraid so.

Wow. Calvinism: More powerful than the Holy Spirit.

Who knew?

 

[Skala]

My view = ALL have genuine hope and opportunity for eternal life and intimate relationship with their creator God.

Your view = A relative few are guaranteed eternal life and intimate relationship with God, but the rest are born without hope or opportunity for such.

You don't see the difference?

Ed's point is that no matter what one's soterioligical view is, in both views, the same group of people are saved: believers

If you believe that God predestines you based on belief, or you believe God predestines you and that results in belief, the final result is the same. In both views, the same people are saved: believers.

It's just that in our view, God guaranteed that there would be believers at all. In your view, he didn't. They just "happened" to cooperate with Him. (some could say that God just got lucky? If he didn't determine this number, who or what did? Is there another force in the universe that God is subject to? Fate? Luck? That's another topic...)

Two other things:

You say "a relative few" when you are talking about our view, and this is seemingly pejorative. Why point this out when we simply believe the same people will be saved that you believe will be saved: believers?

Further, as I have pointed out many times on these forums, your argument actually backfires on itself. You rightly note that in our view, God ensures the salvation of people. Yet you fault our view for God ensuring the salvation of less than he apparently should.

However, in your view, God ensures the salvation of even less than this: zero people.

So when you fault our view for God ensuring the salvation of "too small a number", you are really arguing moreso against your own position without even realizing it.

 

[Schroeder]

In other words, is faith meritorious? Does man's faith deserve salvation? Calvinists accuse non-Calvinists of believing in a works (or merit) based salvation often, but clearly that is not the case because we (like many Calvinistic scholars) don't believe faith earns our salvation. Faith is not meritorious.

God, in his Grace, has chosen to count our faith as righteousness, but our faith doesn't deserve that. It is purely an act of grace for God to count righteousness to our account for ANY reason. And if faith is a meritorious work that earns salvation then don't even Calvinists have to affirm that we are saved by Grace through a work? After all, even a work that is effectually produced by God in a man, is still a work. Right? God may effectually make someone willing to believe, but it is still the man who believes and if his faith is meritorious, then you'd too have to affirm that we are saved by Grace through a meritorious work.

What say you?

work is described in rom 4 as a PHYSICAL act we do to earn a reward. Acts 10 and 15:8 shows God knows the heart and saves us. abraham was justified because he believed or had faith in God. God knew his heart. thats is saved by GRACE nothing we DO but what Christ did for us. We are saved by grace through Faith. Faith in what, not what we did but in what we heard Christ did for us. we place our faith or believe in That which Christ did for us that we could never do. Its is about how our sins where dealt with. knowing in our sins we could never do anything PHYSICALLY to correct ourselves. Faith has nothing to do with the physical which is what was needed to deal with our sins. the shedding of blood. thats is what salvation is. Christ was sacrificed for us because we could not do it ourselves. this word "WORK" messes up alot of people.

 

[timur123456789]

When Paul said that we are not saved by the Works of the Law, he meant Jewish laws such us burn offerings and circumcision.

Paul did not mean 10 commencements , we do need to obey 10 commencements to get saved.

Chronologically speaking faith comes first, however there is no salvation without fallowing 10 commandments.

 

[AndOne]

When Paul said that we are not saved by the Works of the Law, he meant Jewish laws such us burn offerings and circumcision.

Paul did not mean 10 commencements , we do need to obey 10 commencements to get saved.

Chronologically speaking faith comes first, however there is no salvation without fallowing 10 commandments.

According to Paul its impossible for any man to keep the ten commandments. In Romans 3 he explicitly says that there is no one who is righteous - not one! It is the reason we NEED to be saved.

Yes - we do need to keep the 10 commandments but not to get saved - but because we are saved.

 

[LovingJesus4Life]

work is described in rom 4 as a PHYSICAL act we do to earn a reward. Acts 10 and 15:8 shows God knows the heart and saves us. abraham was justified because he believed or had faith in God. God knew his heart. thats is saved by GRACE nothing we DO but what Christ did for us. We are saved by grace through Faith. Faith in what, not what we did but in what we heard Christ did for us. we place our faith or believe in That which Christ did for us that we could never do. Its is about how our sins where dealt with. knowing in our sins we could never do anything PHYSICALLY to correct ourselves. Faith has nothing to do with the physical which is what was needed to deal with our sins. the shedding of blood. thats is what salvation is. Christ was sacrificed for us because we could not do it ourselves. this word "WORK" messes up alot of people.

well said, I think...

 

[timur123456789]

According to Paul its impossible for any man to keep the ten commandments. In Romans 3 he explicitly says that there is no one who is righteous - not one! It is the reason we NEED to be saved.

No, it is impossible for a person to keep 10 commandments by himself, by it is possible when the God lives in a person.

Yes - we do need to keep the 10 commandments but not to get saved - but because we are saved.

No we do need to let God in us to keep 10 commandments.

 

[AndOne]

No, it is impossible for a person to keep 10 commandments by himself, by it is possible when the God lives in a person.

How are you doing with that? Do you no longer sin? Ever?

No we do need to let God in us to keep 10 commandments.

Not to be saved - but because we are saved. If you disagree you are being inconsistent with the statement that you made above. If God lives in a person that means they are already saved.