Does John 17:15 Destroy Pretribulation Rapture?

[W2L]

Pretrib is a fallacy. The scriptures expressly state that the resurrection and judgment occur on the last day.

John 6:39
John 6:40
John 6:44
John 6:54
John 11:24
John 12:48

What is your explanation of Matthew 24:30 and Matthew 24:34?

 

[John Davidson]

What is your explanation of Matthew 24:30 and Matthew 24:34?

I'm not really sure what you need explained.

That speaks of the second coming, it says nothing of a rapture.

 

[W2L]

I'm not really sure what you need explained.

That speaks of the second coming, it says nothing of a rapture.

Can you explain verse 34?

 

[John Davidson]

Can you explain verse 34?

The generation that sees all of these signs will not pass away until Christ returns.

 

[W2L]

The generation that sees all of these signs will not pass away until Christ returns.

Ok, could you expound?

 

[random person]

What is your explanation of Matthew 24:30 and Matthew 24:34?

Matthew 24:30, is regarding the glorification and reign of Christ as prophecied in Daniel 7:13-14.

This verse is speaking about judgment, and clouds in the bible prophecy can represent judgment.
Just look up Isaiah 19:1-4 and it's fulfillment in Isaiah 20:1-6. This prophecy speaks of Yahweh surfing a cloud into Egypt. This is a metaphor for judgment. But really happened? Egypt was conquered by the Assyrians. See Isaiah chapter 20. No Egyptian literally saw Yahweh surfing on a cloud above their skies.

Additionally, the Greek word "heaven" used in this verse is ouranos. This very same Greek word is also used by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2; and used in both Revelation 8:10 and Revelation 12:4.

Thus Matthew 24:30 is not speaking about the skies above earth but the crowning of Christ and subsequent His judgment upon Israel in A.D. 70 from third heaven. He prophecies the same thing in Matthew 26:64.

The Greek word used for "they will see" is horaó. This word has a metaphorical meaning. It means to "to see with one's heart" or "to perceive with inward spiritual perception" not to see literally with one's eyes, with their physical vision. It can also mean discern.

So the word for "see" is often used not of sight, but of perception.

Check Biblehub if you don't believe me?

Matthew 24:34 is quite literally says what it means and means what it says.

A biblical generation is around 40 years.

So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations.

Matthew 1:17

The Babylonian Captivity is dated between 786-781 BCE. Now divide 786 or 781 by 14, what do you get? The number you will roughly get is 41. 41 years per a generation.

Here is another passage:

where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.’
11 As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest.’

Hebrews 3:9-11

A biblical generation is quite clearly demonstrated here is around a 40 year period.

 

[random person]

I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
-John 17:15

I'm a pre trib believer, but I can't help but be bothered by this verse. does this prove posttribulation, or is there a way around this? I'd like some answers

Everyone overlooks John 17:20 though.

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,

 

[ac28]

Can you explain verse 34?

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Had Israel, as a nation, accepted Christ as the promised Messiah, that verse would have been true. That's what EVERYTHING was hinged on. It didn't happen.

In any case, had Israel repented, there was plenty of time for the trib and then, the 2nd coming to occur within the time frame of one generation. How long is a generation? 40 years?

 

[random person]

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Had Israel, as a nation, accepted Christ as the promised Messiah, that verse would have been true. That's what EVERYTHING was hinged on. It didn't happen.

How long is a generation? 40 years? In any case, there was plenty of time for the trib and then, the 2nd coming to occur within the time frame of one generation

Do you know the difference between a "far" demonstrative and a "near" demonstrative is?

that generation Hebrews 3:10 (far demonstrative)

this generation Matthew 24:34 (near demonstrative)

Read Isaiah 61:1-2 then read Luke 4:18 and Luke 21:20-22.

Then read Isaiah 65, which lays out the complete events of the 1st century, read verses Isaiah 65:6-7 then read Matthew 23:29-36; read Isaiah 65:2-5 then read Romans 10:20-21.

 

[W2L]

Matthew 24:30, is regarding the glorification and reign of Christ as prophecied in Daniel 7:13-14.

This verse is speaking about judgment, and clouds in the bible prophecy can represent judgment.
Just look up Isaiah 19:1-4 and it's fulfillment in Isaiah 20:1-6. This prophecy speaks of Yahweh surfing a cloud into Egypt. This is a metaphor for judgment. But really happened? Egypt was conquered by the Assyrians. See Isaiah chapter 20. No Egyptian literally saw Yahweh surfing on a cloud above their skies.

Additionally, the Greek word "heaven" used in this verse is ouranos. This very same Greek word is also used by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2; and used in both Revelation 8:10 and Revelation 12:4.

Thus Matthew 24:30 is not speaking about the skies above earth but the crowning of Christ and subsequent His judgment upon Israel in A.D. 70 from third heaven. He prophecies the same thing in Matthew 26:64.

The Greek word used for "they will see" is horaó. This word has a metaphorical meaning. It means to "to see with one's heart" or "to perceive with inward spiritual perception" not to see literally with one's eyes, with their physical vision. It can also mean discern.

So the word for "see" is often used not of sight, but of perception.

Check Biblehub if you don't believe me?

Matthew 24:34 is quite literally says what it means and means what it says.

A biblical generation is around 40 years.

So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations.

Matthew 1:17

The Babylonian Captivity is dated between 786-781 BCE. Now divide 786 or 781 by 14, what do you get? The number you will roughly get is 41. 41 years per a generation.

Here is another passage:

where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.’
11 As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest.’

Hebrews 3:9-11

A biblical generation is quite clearly demonstrated here is around a 40 year period.

I do believe the scripture to be metaphoric, and if I properly understand what you are saying, I agree

 

[SeventyOne]

I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
-John 17:15

I'm a pre trib believer, but I can't help but be bothered by this verse. does this prove posttribulation, or is there a way around this? I'd like some answers

I've always kind of seen that as a time-sensitive prayer. They didn't get to leave when Jesus ascended, they had to stay.

I don't think one can realistically read anything eschatological into the phrase, because if the intent was for none of them to leave before the 2nd coming, all believers would still be alive, but they aren't. They died and were all taken out of the world one by one.

Since most believers have already left this world, then it logically follows that either the prayer wasn't answered, or this has nothing to do with either the rapture or second coming events.

 

[ac28]

Do you know the difference between a "far" demonstrative and a "near" demonstrative is?

that generation Hebrews 3:10 (far demonstrative)

this generation Matthew 24:34 (near demonstrative)

What does that have to do with the price of eggs?

 

[W2L]

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Had Israel, as a nation, accepted Christ as the promised Messiah, that verse would have been true. That's what EVERYTHING was hinged on. It didn't happen.

In any case, had Israel repented, there was plenty of time for the trib and then, the 2nd coming to occur within the time frame of one generation. How long is a generation? 40 years?

If? I'm not sure I agree the scripture is iffy, but rather was a promise fulfilled.

 

[W2L]

I've always kind of seen that as a time-sensitive prayer. They didn't get to leave when Jesus ascended, they had to stay.

I don't think one can realistically read anything eschatological into the phrase, because if the intent was for none of them to leave before the 2nd coming, all believers would still be alive, but they aren't. They died and were all taken out of the world one by one.

Since most believers have already left this world, then it logically follows that either the prayer wasn't answered, or this has nothing to do with either the rapture or second coming events.

Colossians 2 says we have died and been raised already

 

[ac28]

Pretrib is a fallacy. The scriptures expressly state that the resurrection and judgment occur on the last day.

John 6:39
John 6:40
John 6:44
John 6:54
John 11:24
John 12:48

I totally agree with you. The pre-trib theory is Satan's ingenious method of keeping people focused on the Acts period instead of discovering that the only truth for today is found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, where, if you have the faith to believe it, will result in a calling far above all heavens. Paul's Acts epistles: Romans, Cor, Thess, Gal, and Hebrews were ALL for a past time that stopped in Acts 28:28, 1956 years ago, when Israel was set aside.

 

[random person]

What does that have to do with the price of eggs?

If Jesus meant a distant future generation, he would used the far demonstrative. But he meant his contemporary audience so he used the near demonstrative.

 

[random person]

What does that have to do with the price of eggs?

But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Luke 17:25

Perfect example, ac28!

 

[BABerean2]

But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Luke 17:25

Perfect example, ac28!

You need to have a long talk with Sam Frost...

 

[John Davidson]

Matthew 24:30, is regarding the glorification and reign of Christ as prophecied in Daniel 7:13-14.

No. Matthew 24:30 is addressing the second coming of Christ.

This verse is speaking about judgment, and clouds in the bible prophecy can represent judgment.

Maybe clouds simply represent clouds.

 

[random person]

You need to have a long talk with Sam Frost...

Nope. I think he caved and that is all.

Isaiah 65:20-24 & Isaiah 66:19-24 provides descriptions of life after the New Heavens and New Earth. What does this say about a "Millennium" kingdom? What does this say about the nature of the Resurrection? What does this say about Matthew 22:30 and marriage in the New Heavens and New Earth? What does this say about Jesus returning to destroy the material universe only to recreate a perfect world, a literal Edenic paradise inhabited by billions of immortal resurrected Christians?

Jesus even quotes Isaiah 65:6-7 in Matthew 23:29-36.

And what about God's promises in Genesis 8:21b; Psalms 72:7; Psalms 72:17; Psalms 78:69; Psalms 148:4-6; Ecclesiastes 1:4; and Ephesians 3:21?

Check out my thread in the Controversial Christian Theology forum regarding Don K Preston's brilliant 14 part video series on the nature of the "Day of the Lord". (Please watch the video series before posting, thanks!) I posted up a lot my personal views that I share with other covenantal eschatologists in that thread. Come on over and begin a discussion with me there.

Here is the thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...reston-full-preterist-14-part-series.7941310/