does god save all??

[Avid]

that brings to mind a question, what if someone dies without ever hearing about God or about the Gospel? What happens to them?

Not sure if anyone has attempted to answer this. I'll read all 80 replies later, but must go SOON.

God has stated in his word (the Bible) that He Calls EVERYONE. There is obviously an effectual call and a general call. The general call goes to EVERYONE, but God has the authority to make this call effectual where He chooses.

God shows us, by the creation that surrounds us, the truth of His eternal nature. Those who are isolated, but have thoughts that they wanted to know more about this Creator, would soon find that there is a Church or Missionary near them, and they would have opportunity to hear the truth preached.

I had people say (many years ago,) that they did not understand how this could be true, because there are people in the jungles of Africa (their words, not mine,) that have no opportunity to hear. "What about them?"

It took a while for me to understand well enough to be ready with an answer for this. AFRICA had the gospel about 14 centuries before Christian nations even knew the Americas we out there! They are without excuse, not only because they rejected this as a continent, or as a nation, but they have fled to the darkest corners of the planet in order to insulate themselves from it!

These people would not have as bad a time in the great judgment as someone who had plenty of opportunity, and still rejected it. These people (in the western world, etc.,) would be of the WORST people EVER, because they had easy access and ample opportunity to submit to God, but chose to reject God, His Son, and the drawing of His Holy Spirit, in order to remain in their sin.

Read the scriptures and pray to the LORD for understanding.

.

 

[FredVB]

Love is meaningless without choosing. So God is meaningless without choosing, because God is love. This is merely rhetoric for argument. It holds no weight. Many things are said of love. It does not all hold for Yahweh God, and the love that God is. We choose, our love is chosen. Yahweh alone loves no matter what.
Our response, which is called for, is not a work, and salvation is from Yahweh alone, through Christ. Calvinists alone argue that any response from us is still a work accomplishing salvation. No one else anywhere will call just any response doing any work. We still have our responsibilities, we are told to choose, as well. And of course God provides for everything, it remains as said, that God is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance. That any don't is their own fault.

Where are we told to choose? Are you saying that faith is self-manifested?

With any maturity that we may have we can come to looking such things up in a Bible concordance or even with using a Bible online. See Deut 30:19, or Prov 3:31.

With looking at what I said, it can be seen that what I explain is that Yahweh provides for everything, and we may respond, repenting with faith in Jesus Christ, from that. If we don't do that, we are not among the saved. And there would be evidence if we do come to that. Jesus did tell us ways in which we should act and this is what we will do if we acknowledge him as Lord in truth. What Jesus said in the sermon is regarding the things in which we would give testimony to him.

Avid, despite what is said I never saw such evidence of those things happening in Africa. But evidence is provided such that any can respond to God, if they do as they should God provides the way.

 

[lismore]

they are saved.

It's a bit of a disadvantage then to hear the gospel and run the risk of rejecting it. Surely better for all to be ignorant of the truth if the default position is salvation.

However Jesus said 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation'

This is an emphatic command, to me suggesting that the need is urgent.

 

[98cwitr]

With any maturity that we may have we can come to looking such things up in a Bible concordance or even with using a Bible online. See Deut 30:19, or Prov 3:31.

With looking at what I said, it can be seen that what I explain is that Yahweh provides for everything, and we may respond, repenting with faith in Jesus Christ, from that. If we don't do that, we are not among the saved. And there would be evidence if we do come to that. Jesus did tell us ways in which we should act and this is what we will do if we acknowledge him as Lord in truth. What Jesus said in the sermon is regarding the things in which we would give testimony to him.

Avid, despite what is said I never saw such evidence of those things happening in Africa. But evidence is provided such that any can respond to God, if they do as they should God provides the way.

Look at Duet. 30:17 in context. It says "if your heart..." Who forms the heart (Psalm 33:15), and who changes it? Look at Ezekiel 36 and the promise God makes to the elect.

Faith is not a choice a person makes one day, it is a gift that God bestows upon His Chosen.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

John 15:

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

 

[lismore]

ok so this question is kinda stupid because I do believe god saves all. but I have a question about this. the bible says that in order to be saved you have to know that your a sinner and repent or something like that. well what happens if you don't know if your a sinner and you repent. does god still save you?? my nephew says that if you don't know that your a sinner and ask god to save you, then you aren't saved because you have to know that your a sinner. and also you have to truly mean it or else you won't be saved. so really, what happens if you don't know your a sinner or you think your saved but don't know if you are and you repent. does that mean god will save you??? also, what happens if you don't repent the right way??? my nephew also said that if you asked god to save you and you repented and still don't know if your saved, and didn't feel god save you, then you didn't do it right. he said you have to do it right or god won't save you.

Take the lifeboat analogy.

The ship is sinking, there is one lifeboat provided for you- the Lord Jesus (Acts 4:12)

If you get into the lifeboat you are saved.

If you do not get into the lifeboat for whatever reason you will drown.

If you get into the lifeboat but are not sure you're in the lifeboat, that doesn't need an answer does it?

 

[Bluelion]

Look at Duet. 30:17 in context. It says "if your heart..." Who forms the heart (Psalm 33:15), and who changes it? Look at Ezekiel 36 and the promise God makes to the elect.

Faith is not a choice a person makes one day, it is a gift that God bestows upon His Chosen.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

John 15:

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

could you explain how your doctrine takes away choice? Choice was given from the very start. In the middle of the garden were two tree side by side on The Tree of Life the other the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God gave Adam the choice of what to eat. He could have chose life and been fine but he chose to disobey and death.

I understand God calls a person to him, but the person must make the choice. I just don't see how your camp gets around free will? Just seeking to understand I say this in all love.

 

[98cwitr]

could you explain how your doctrine takes away choice? Choice was given from the very start. In the middle of the garden were two tree side by side on The Tree of Life the other the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God gave Adam the choice of what to eat. He could have chose life and been fine but he chose to disobey and death.

I understand God calls a person to him, but the person must make the choice. I just don't see how your camp gets around free will? Just seeking to understand I say this in all love.

Choice was never given at the start. Such a belief, forgive me for being blunt, is a failure to reconcile (or even possibly acknowledge) God's Omniscience with Him being the literal Creator.

Choice is a perception from the human viewpoint, and a false one at that, so long as you believe God has both complete foreknowledge and is also the Creator. Take either away and then choice becomes an actual possibility. With both being apparent, choice is nothing more than an illusion.

Let me ask you this, from your point of view, why would God, knowing that Eve would partake of the Tree (and thus bring about the Fall of Man), create the Tree in the first place? How is there a choice when the end result is already statically apparent (in other words, unchangeable fate before it even has happened)?

 

[Bluelion]

Choice was never given at the start. Such a belief, forgive me for being blunt, is a failure to reconcile (or even possibly acknowledge) God's Omniscience with Him being the literal Creator.

Choice is a perception from the human viewpoint, and a false one at that, so long as you believe God has both complete foreknowledge and is also the Creator. Take either away and then choice becomes an actual possibility. With both being apparent, choice is nothing more than an illusion.

Let me ask you this, from your point of view, why would God, knowing that Eve would partake of the Tree (and thus bring about the Fall of Man), create the Tree in the first place? How is there a choice when the end result is already statically apparent (in other words, unchangeable fate before it even has happened)?

see this is where you error. The fact God created a tree shows choice. God gave a choice all the trees you may eat, but this one of knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat or touch it the day you do you will surly die. God new what man and woman would do, so he could have stopped them, In fact He did stop them from eating from the tree of Life after they sinned. God did not even have to put a tree there, He could have sent an angels to stop them, He new when they would eat, why did He let them, because God wants us to chose to follow Him out of Love and not because we have to.

Another case is judas rejected God, He chose not to follow God. If people are simple all doing God's will there can be no punishment, You can't fault a person for breaking the Law if its God divine will they break it, but God said He is willing that all come to repent and no human be lost, that all obey the Law, If the Bible says this is His will, and there is not choice, why doesn't God force everyone to obey.

I think that is why so many people are wild with sin and have no fear of God, because people tell them its not there fault they can not help it. It is their fault, they had a choice.

Oh also it was not an unchangeable fate, God could have stop it, He stop them from eating from The Tree of Life. Man could have changed it he could have obeyed.

maybe i need to start a thread what do you think?

 

[98cwitr]

He knew they'd eat of the Tree before He created the Tree or the person who would eat from it. There was absolutely and utterly zero choice.

Judas had the devil enter into him. Who was really in control there?

That's like saying you'd let your child run into a busy street because you dont want to interfere with their free will. Such a being is a monster and yields 1 Cor. 13 absolutely false. Would you let your child run into the street...simply to let them have the choice? No...because that is ridiculous, but that's exactly what you're saying God does. How preposterous a theory....

Start a new thread...this is indeed a "hot topic"

 

[Avid]

... Avid, despite what is said I never saw such evidence of those things happening in Africa. But evidence is provided such that any can respond to God, if they do as they should God provides the way.

Not exactly sure if you mean everything I said, or a certain part of it. I'll be making a more general reply till I know better.

The continent of Africa got the Gospel of Jesus Christ delivered to them by a man of great authority in the first century. (Acts 8:26-40) Though most have rejected the gospel (as in other parts of the world) this does not mean that NO ONE is interested, or no one will seek the LORD. We have a commission from the LORD to spread His word and Gospel everywhere.

There have been many missionaries sent to Africa. Others were sent to other dark regions of the world, and these people are often resisted and some killed or imprisoned. It is not likely you know whether a soul in the darkest corner of a dark region has had a true desire to know the Creator of the universe. If you did, you would have been that person who was there to show him the truth of God.

My point is that everything is in the control of the LORD, and we have responsibilities to Him concerning that. If God sends us somewhere, we had better be about doing His will. If we are taking up something we heard or read in the Bible, and sending ourselves, we may find ourselves where God does not want us, and the important tasks will be delegated to a person submitted to Him.

We, as humans, as Churchgoers, as professing "Christians," are often led of our own thoughts and will, and have not submitted to God to do the LORD'S will. I mean there are Churches FULL of people who are doing what they think is right. This is why there are so many opinions and so much confusion. Unregenerate man inserts himself into religious life, and claims status that he has not attained. Proud people may have a smooth way of speaking to others, but have never submitted to God, they do not have a clear understanding of God's truth.

More confusion comes when these proud people are telling others, God uses the power of His word, draws upon them by His Holy Spirit, and saves them in spite of the error of the people around them. The proud one who proclaims the words of the LORD, and of His prophets and Apostles, is lifted up, and maybe, promoted. This is not the work of the LORD, though God may use His word this way to save some people in the crowd.

Matthew 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You can see that people all around the things of the LORD are impressed with the power and authority, and many try to copy that (Acts 8:4-24)
Let us fear finding ourselves (any of us, including me) in a place contrary to God's leading, and claiming things God did not work in us Himself.

Romans 15
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

May God work in each of us to understand his truth.

.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

they are saved.

How can someone be saved w/o ever hearing about Jesus?

This opens up a BIG ole can o' worms....just kill all babies and don't send missionaries to third world countries, and then the populace of heaven gets larger day by day...


Psalms 19 and Romans 1 is plain as day...natural revelation reveals to all that there is a Creator. None will be w/o excuse on the day of Judgement. Even those who died w/o knowing about Jesus will pay the utmost farthing...

 

[Nord Christian]

You have been given the correct answer in several forms, so all I can do is to reinforce their answers but your lead premise is incorrect; God can save all and God would save all if they were willing to accept it, but they are not willing. If you will read, to study, the four Gospels you'll discover that Jesus taught, much, more on Hell than He did on Heaven. And He taught that Hell was created for Satan and the Fallen Angels but any human that refuses to submit to God will, also, spend eternity in Hell.

This is what confuses me a bit, Bill. I thought once we believe what Lord Jesus Christ did for us at the cross, then ascending into Heaven to be with Father God that we are saved by grace, and not of anything that we do.

Also that once we accept Lord Jesus as our personal Lord and savior, we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and our names written in the Lambs book of life.

If a person cannot repent of said sins, and have the Holy Spirit within them, how can they still lose their salvation? I believe that repentance is important. However, what if we are having a difficult time turning away from one or more sins?

 

[MWood]

If you are in Christ and He is in you, then you wont want to wilfully sin. Your sins are covered by the blood. You want be judged for your sins. You will be judged according to your ambassadorship for Christ only.

 

[Nord Christian]

If you are in Christ and He is in you, then you wont want to wilfully sin. Your sins are covered by the blood. You want be judged for your sins. You will be judged according to your ambassadorship for Christ only.

This I'm aware of MWood. I do know there are consequences to sinning for the believer, but losing their salvation isn't one of those consequences.

As for me, no I don't want to willfully give into sin. I do have a couple of sin problems I'm having difficulty with now, and have trouble just turning away from them.

When I do give in, I do know that I had done wrong, and feel shame for it. I pray to Lord Jesus right after to please forgive me for what I'd done.

 

[Avid]

... This opens up a BIG ole can o' worms....just kill all babies and don't send missionaries to third world countries, and then the populace of heaven gets larger day by day ...

Asked a Pastor once, if, seeing he thinks all children below a certain age that DIE are immediately ushered into the arms of our LORD, "WHY ARE YOU AGAINST ABORTION? Isn't this just helping these new little people to avoid HELL, and all the troubles of this life at the same time?"

His response was predictably self-contradictory.

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

​

 

[MWood]

Asked a Pastor once, if, seeing he thinks all children below a certain age that DIE are immediately ushered into the arms of our LORD, "WHY ARE YOU AGAINST ABORTION? Isn't this just helping these new little people to avoid HELL, and all the troubles of this life at the same time?"

His response was predictably self-contradictory.

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

​

These verses goes on to say that God knew Esau while he was still in his mothers womb. God knew the life of Esau, all that he would say and do before he was born. So as the babies of today. God knows all of them and their lives as well. The potter forms some pots for honor, and some for dishonor. God would have all to be saved, but knows that not all will come when they are called.

All of this sounds contradictory of our image of God. But how can we know the mind of God, or know why He does what He does. I can't be His counselor, nor His guiding light. The best I can do , is fight the good fight and stay the course until Christ comes for me. Let the Holy Spirit be MY counselor and guiding light.

 

[Avid]

... how can we know the mind of God, or know why He does what He does...

Excellent question. I liked your post!

Those of the world are constantly confused. Those who remain in the FLESH (carnal, natural, unregenerate,) have not spiritual understanding. (Romans 8) However, if we are submitted to God, to His Son, and have the Holy Spirit in our hearts, we have access to the thoughts of God.

Romans 11
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
I Corinthians 2
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
​

Some people try to dismiss this, saying that we can't understand or know all God knows! I will agree, but we have this from God's word, and I think that Paul knew something about what he was saying.

.

 

[Avid]

... All of this sounds contradictory of our image of God...

So many good points...

It is scary to think about, but many people have an image of God that is not supported by the scriptures. Many of these have a Profession of Christianity, and bring a reproach upon all those who have a true heart in submission to Christ.

It is because of this kind of people that we are often said to have created God in our own image! That is disturbing. As I think of how different God is (as described in scripture) from my thoughts of Him in the days of my own ignorance, I am astounded. It seems obvious that I loved the image of God given to me by the world, and by the religious institutions where I learned most of what I THOUGHT I KNEW. I had to UNLEARN so much of that before I could get anywhere with God.

.

 

[BBAS 64]

These verses goes on to say that God knew Esau while he was still in his mothers womb. God knew the life of Esau, all that he would say and do before he was born. So as the babies of today. God knows all of them and their lives as well. The potter forms some pots for honor, and some for dishonor. God would have all to be saved, but knows that not all will come when they are called.

All of this sounds contradictory of our image of God. But how can we know the mind of God, or know why He does what He does. I can't be His counselor, nor His guiding light. The best I can do , is fight the good fight and stay the course until Christ comes for me. Let the Holy Spirit be MY counselor and guiding light.

Good Day, Mwood

the verse goes on to say..... where?

So when Jesus said I knew you not... he was mistaken?

The pots of dishonor fabricated for under destruction serve the purpose of God, what does the text say that is?

God would have all saved, really what or whom is God dependant on to have that which he wants. Can he what so ever he chooses to the creatures he created on earth....?
In Him,

Bill

 

[Skala]

Well that's picking favorites aint it God's love is clearly defined in Scripture, and Scripture also tells us that God does not show favoritism.

If we are to commissioned to love others as we love ourselves, there is no room for any "special" kind of love

Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church, and gave himself up for her. Eph 5:25

Sounds like the Bible disagrees with you.

As for God playing favorites, it seems like you are a victim of understanding certain Bible verses in a vacuum. (ie, without regard to context)

God clearly plays favorites. He chose Israel over all the nations of the earth. Jesus chose his disciples from amongst all the other men on earth. One can hardly read the Old Testament without discovering that God chooses particular nations and people for certain things that He did not choose everyone else for.

If you walked up to an Old Testament Jew and said "God does not play favorites", they would laugh in your face. They would remind you that God set his covenental love on Israel alone. And rescued them from Egyptian bondage, and sided with them against Egypt and destroyed them. He gave them promises and blessings that he never gave to any other nations. He sided with them in times of war to help them defeat other peoples so Israel could claim their lands.

Anyone who says "God does not play favorites" is simply ignorant or ignoring what he knows of the Old Testament.

The reason you think God does not play favorites is because of a couple of Bible verses that you are misinterpreting.

The first is Romaons 2:11 which states "For God shows no partiality". But this isn't just a blanket sweeping statement that applies to all things and all topics. The verse is not saying that God never shows partiality in any circumstance, ever. But it has a context. If you read the passage, it is talking about God not showing partiality in his judgement and condemnation of sinners, namely, the difference between Jews and Gentiles:

Rom 2:9-12 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Paul is simply saying that Jews are no different than Gentiles, as far as God's judgement is concerned. The Jews and Gentiles are not treated any differently just because the Jews had access to God's laws and the Gentiles didn't.

As you can see with your own eyes, this verse has nothing to do with God never showing partiality. So you used it out of context.

The next verse you are using out of context to support the idea that God doesn't play favorites (despite the clear scriptural evidence and life evidence that he does) is Acts 10:34.

The verse in question says: Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

But again, if you read the context, he isn't talking about every circumstance ever. but instead, there is a particular context in which the words "God does not show favoritism" must be understood.

If you simply read the very next verse, you will understand the verse more:

Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right

By reading verse 34 in a vacuum you do a real disservice to yourself because verse 34 and 35 make a complete sentence. But you were ignoring verse 35 (the second half of the sentence) thus you were keeping yourself from the full amount of information. That's what ignoring context does.

Here, Peter is simply saying God does not exclude anyone who fears God and does what is right, simply because he is from another nation other than Israel. Peter is simply acknowledging that anyone in any nation who truly fears the Lord is accepted by God. This verse has nothing to do with God never being able to have a special love on particular nations or people (something we've already established he clearly does, especially in the Old Testament)

Again, you are using these verses wrongly to support a crazy notion that frankly, can't even be supported by a casual reading of the Bible.

I found this video helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvDH8YGT2y4