Does God actually find homosexual relations "abominable"?

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Nadiine

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Just as long as we realize we're binding and loosing, deciding what laws to follow and want laws we don't need to, which is the essence of "cherry picking", and own up to that.
There are proper hermaneutics to study of scripture - anytime
anyone picks one law from the OT law to follow while claiming
they can ignore another is "cherry picking" unless they understand the
Law itself and what changed thru Christ's death and resurrection which
brought us under a new covenant.
In this covenant, law is not random.

What happens is, people who want to promote OT moral sins are
essentially claiming morality is Relative to everyone when they pick
out the homosexuality law yet agree that other moral laws such as
murder, adultery are still valid.
(nevermind that the 2 laws Jesus put us under are FROM the OT
Torah)...

The problem is people are deciding randomly what they'll follow
without the hermeneutics to know how law works and what
changed btwn the covenants (and what didn't change).
 
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CTyer

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This statement couldn't be further from the truth. Both are condemned in both the OT and the NT.

From the OT
Leviticus 20:13 KJV
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Leviticus 20:13 NBV
"If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves."

Leviticus 20:13 NLT
"The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act, and are guilty of a capital offense."

From the NT
1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

1 Corinthians 6:9 Darby
"Do ye not know that unrighteous [persons] shall not inherit [the] kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men"

1 Corinthians 6:9 Young's
have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites

Bolded emphasis covers the *giver and the *receiver. Or in your words, "active partner and passive partner".

Note: additional translations offered to give clarity to those who might not be able to see it otherwise. (not that this guarantees that they will not reject it, and choose lean to their own understanding despite it.)

Calvin Tyer

herev said:
Another issue was simply the act of manhood. Reading Leviticus in the ancient Hebrew literally, it is only the passive partner that was condemned in the homosexual act--the active partner was not.
 
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Nadiine

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Dietary laws are no longer applicable because the purpose for them were fulfilled when Christ went to the cross. Moral laws however have not ceased to be in effect and by walking in them, which are the ways of God, as the rest of the world goes south, is a testament and a witness to whom we belong. As Nadiine pointed out, it is still immoral to have sex with animals and we have no one (yet) arguing that. Man on man sex and woman on woman sex is still forbidden and abominable in the sight of God, just as inappropriate behavior with animals is.

Calvin Tyer
Yes exactly.
Christ fulfilled the sacrificial & worship laws where believers worship
Him in newness (in Spirit and in Truth) - not works by rituals which
was their righteousness prior to Christ.

Christ didn't "fulfill" our obligation of moral laws to observe. If so,
then we could murder, abuse, steal and sexually sin without any
penalty. Those "LOVE LAWS" we have to still observe; they are
how we treat one another in love.
 
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CTyer

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Exactly. And the ironic thing is that these are the same objections that atheists bring to the table, and we understand that they only have the natural mind of a man to work with that inherently does not have the capacity to understand the things of the Spirit of God, they are foolishness to him, as they are spiritually discerned. One must have the Spirit of God residing within them, to understand the covenants and understand what were shadows of the things to come through Christ's sacrifice and which things are applicable to all ages. Atheists are not expected to understand these things, but what excuse to professing Christians have? I think when our arguments are compatible with the arguments of those who are in the dark we must ask and examine ourselves to find out if we are truly in the light? If our arguments are the synonymous with those who are hellbound, shouldn't we wonder whether or not we have truly been born again?
Just a thought.

Calvin Tyer
There are proper hermaneutics to study of scripture - anytime
anyone picks one law from the OT law to follow while claiming
they can ignore another is "cherry picking" unless they understand the
Law itself and what changed thru Christ's death and resurrection which
brought us under a new covenant.
In this covenant, law is not random.

What happens is, people who want to promote OT moral sins are
essentially claiming morality is Relative to everyone when they pick
out the homosexuality law yet agree that other moral laws such as
murder, adultery are still valid.
(nevermind that the 2 laws Jesus put us under are FROM the OT
Torah)...

The problem is people are deciding randomly what they'll follow
without the hermeneutics to know how law works and what
changed btwn the covenants (and what didn't change).
 
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AngelusSax

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What happens is, people who want to promote OT moral sins are
essentially claiming morality is Relative to everyone when they pick
out the homosexuality law yet agree that other moral laws such as
murder, adultery are still valid.
(nevermind that the 2 laws Jesus put us under are FROM the OT
Torah)...

Again, I refer back to the fact that if we break even ONE commandment from the Torah, we break them ALL.

Scripture is clear that dietary laws were lifted in the NT. They did not lift the law on what you could wear though (for example). Well, Jesus didn't specifically, but the Church did in the book of Acts, since it was not included in the "Big 4".

So if you EVER wear a blended fabric, you break the law against having homosexual sex, against murder, against stealing, etc, if you go by it being something that must be repealed by Jesus specifically.

To condemn one for breaking it and not yourself is hypocrisy, which is my main beef with most people here and offline.

It is easy to see how murder breaks the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself, and to do unto others as you would have them do unto you (and yes, I know they are from the OT as well, thank you ever so loving much).

What is difficult to see is how two people who both happen to have male genatalia, lving each other and expressing it, violates the command to love our neighbor as ourselves.

But here's another question: Why do we obey moral laws? To show others we love God? I've seen homosexuals firsthand who love God. (No I didn't see them having sex...)

Now if we must obey or risk damnation... sorry, but we are all of us, yourself and myself included, damned then. We all break moral laws. Any time we gossip (no matter how factual the information may be), we break a moral law. As just one example.
 
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CTyer

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"Is the law of mixed fibers (or fabrics) still binding on Christians? Scripture Questions

Answer: The law of mixed fibres (Deuteronomy 22:11, Leviticus 19:19), did not prohibit the Israelites from wearing many different kinds of clothes together; only two different kinds are specified; wool and linen. Furthermore, this prohibition did not prevent an Israelite from wearing one piece of wool and one piece of linen on his body at the same time. This law prevented wearing a garment that was a mixture of both wool and linen.

The observations and researches of modern science have proved that "wool, when combined with linen, increases its power of passing off the electricity from the body. In hot climates, it brings on malignant fevers and exhausts the strength; and when passing off from the body, it meets with the heated air, inflames and excoriates like a blister" [WHITLAW]. (See Ezekiel 44:17-18).

This law is for His children's benefit."

So now that you know which fabrics were not to be mixed and why, would it not be wise to not mix wool and linen even now? Of course!
br /> *** I have no linen/wool mixed fabrics in my closet or drawers and never intend to obtain any.

Further, to illuminate a very important point, there was no capital punishment ordinance for those who wore mixed fabrics of linen and wool, the same cannot be said for male on male sex. That came with a death penalty ordinance commanded by God.

The consequence of mixing wool and linen is already existent within the mixing of the two fabrics and will still occur today. Again,the law of not mixing wool with linen was for the benefit of God's children, and not something punishable by God. So this is a miserable failure for an argument to promote homosexual sin.

Calvin Tyer
Again, I refer back to the fact that if we break even ONE commandment from the Torah, we break them ALL.

Scripture is clear that dietary laws were lifted in the NT. They did not lift the law on what you could wear though (for example).

So if you EVER wear a blended fabric, you break the law against having homosexual sex, against murder, against stealing, etc.

To condemn one for breaking it and not yourself is hypocrisy, which is my main beef with most people here and offline.

It is easy to see how murder breaks the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself, and to do unto others as you would have them do unto you (and yes, I know they are from the OT as well, thank you ever so loving much).

What is difficult to see is how two people who both happen to have male genatalia, lving each other and expressing it, violates the command to love our neighbor as ourselves.

But here's another question: Why do we obey moral laws? To show others we love God? I've seen homosexuals firsthand who love God. (No I didn't see them having sex...)

Now if we must obey or risk damnation... sorry, but we are all of us, yourself and myself included, damned then. We all break moral laws. Any time we gossip (no matter how factual the information may be), we break a moral law. As just one example.
 
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OllieFranz

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Okay Herev... I have not seen this argument before. Do you have a transliteration available (since I can't read actual Hebrew)? I don't inherently doubt what you say, but I always like to verify. I'm sure you understand. :)

Actually Herev has it backward. Although in most cultures where only one partner is singled out as different (whether for good or for bad), it is the "bottom," the Bible condemns the "top." The two different words used for "lie" suggest the possible explanation that it is rape that is condemned, not merely the sex, but the suggestion is very weak, and therefore not provable.

That is why the ancient rabbis (whose discussions are recorded in the Talmud and other revered commentaries) were hard-pressed to explain why Leviticus 20:13 condemned both parties to death. They were never able to come to a consensus on the why the "passive" party must die, but they agreed that it may have been related to why the innocent animal must be put down in the case of inappropriate behavior with animals.

In Hebrew, Leviticus 18:22 reads: "ואת־זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה תועבה הוא׃"
A literal translation would be "To lie with a man, [in] the lyings (or "in the bed") of the wife: [this is] taboo." The words in square brackets are added to make the English more grammatical.

The usual understanding is that "To lie with (have sex with) a man, using him as if he were a woman is a sin." This is how the ancient rabbis understood it.
 
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GenemZ

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Considering that it's possible that modern Christians take the words used out of context, due to mistranslation, how do you think God might view homosexuality today? Do you think God views homosexuality the same as eating with "unclean" hands or eating non-Kosher food?

Well? If you really want to know? You would have to see what "unclean hands" implied back then, not how we view it today. First of all, unclean hands was a tradition of religious men, not a command in the Bible. It did not imply germs, but rather one's spiritual state. A man who was unclean was seen as unacceptable before God.

Eating non-kosher is no big deal today with the exception of Orthodox Jews and to some extent Muslims. Try to serve a Muslim pork in a Muslim country? He might try and kill you. He would see it as a horrible offense.

The point you made is not to be understood by how we perceive the words to mean today. Its how they perceived the words when the Bible was written. If we stick to the intended meaning of words at the time of writing? Then homosexuality was seen as a terrible offense to God.

Unclean hands had nothing to do with sanitation in their thinking. They had no concept of germs back then. It had to do with a spiritual connotation. It was a tradition created by the Pharaisees, etc. It was not a command to the average Jew to follow to be found prescribed in the Bible itself. Jesus was dealing with the evil of the traditions of men when the issue of unclean hands came up. Today we see that as good sanitation and hygiene. That was not the intended meaning back then. It had to do with being found acceptable before God.

The word in regards to homosexuality translated as Abomination back then meant something low down and loathsome to God. What pro gay advocates try and do today, is to superimpose our current perception of in regards to unkosher and unclean hands, upon what the intended meaning that was to be understood at the time the Bible was written.

For example. If talking to a radical liberal crowd? One may insult the other by saying he's a George Bush. But? To a Republican? It would be no real offense. It has all to do with one's personal bias and perception. God wanted to train the Jews with certain biases as a training tool so they could begin to differentiate between what God approves of, and disproves. That is why certain ritualistic mandates were given. He also had real time mandates given in regards to morality and civil law.

If we are going to truly be able to answer your question, we need to see how words were viewed at the time of writing to get a true perspective as to how God sees homosexuality. If we stick with that method of interpretation? We would see by what was stated, that God viewed homosexuality as a loathsome practice.




.
 
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max1120

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Nadine,

Your reasoning is unsound regarding the keeping of some laws and not others. It is based on your own concept of what is and is not "moral". You suppose some things to be obviously moral or not moral and therefore arive at the conclusion that they must have been retained while others were not retained. The bible is riddled with contradictions and areas where it does not agree. Jesus never mentions homosexuality anywhere in the New Testament.
 
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GenemZ

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that is certainly a valid interpretation

you are assigning false motives. IF someone doesn't believe it is a sin to be in a monogamous, loving homosexual relationship, that DOES NOT equate to cherry picking your sins.
IN FACT, generally, it is those on the other side of the equation who do the cherry picking. Levitical law on homosexuality is still binding, but that same law on trimming the beard is not? THAT is cherry picking.

To accept your "cherry picking rationale would lead one to legalize incest, adultery, and inappropriate behavior with animals.

The Mosiac civil law was revealing God's heart towards certain sexual deviations from what God designated for man's happiness.

Paul even said that God's heart did not change towards sexual sins, but that being not under the law, the death penalty no longer could be applied.



Romans 1:32
"and although they know the ordinance of God, that
those who practice such things are worthy of death,
they not only do the same, but also give
hearty approval to those who practice them."


Paul warns that there will be those who will give hearty approval of what God still deems worthy of death. Not surprised to see those who approve of homosexual relationships today. Its nothing new. Its not being "progressive."


No longer under the Law? They are no longer to be put to death (under Jewish Law)..Yet, they remain worthy of death. God's heart attitude towards such sexual sin has not changed. Nor, has the Devil's.


.
 
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AngelusSax

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The consequence of mixing wool and linen is already existent within the mixing of the two fabrics and will still occur today. Again,the law of not mixing wool with linen was for the benefit of God's children, and not something punishable by God. So this is a miserable failure for an argument to promote homosexual sin.

But it is still an ABOMINATION. So feel free to continue to place one abomination above another, as if you know better than God.

And just because you used one person's interpretation to neatly explain away something uncomfortable doesn't make you right (or necessarily wrong).

Again, I am going to quote myself:

AngelusSax said:
I'm not here to promote homosexuality. I am here to promote thought and discussion, and the willingness and ability to see more than one POV and recognize that just because person A and person B disagree, that one of them is not necessarily wrong by default. There is such a thing as a "yes and yes" answer to "is this point correct, or this other point?"

So stop assuming I'm trying to promote homosexuality. Such is not my motive. To quote a rabbi who was quoted in "The Gospel According to Moses" (I don't remember the rabbi's name, sorry):
"How can we learn anything if no one will disagree with me?"

I do appreciate you bringing in a different view on the mixed fibers thing, though. Perhaps that IS right. Perhaps it is not. Perhaps it is right but not the real point after all.

And let's point out one other thing. The law which condemns homosexual acts (interestingly, in the OT, ONLY man-on-man, woman-on-woman was not mentioned, leading many to believe it was about degradation of the traditional view of manhood, not the sex itself) also COMMANDS that they be killed. If you break that part of the command, you break the entire law.

I know Jesus taught us to forgive sinners and whatnot, but still, the Law is the Law, and it's not enough to just "not commit the sin" to be obeying it... one must be willing to do their part in the consequences spelled out, otherwise that becomes a sin of omission.

Paul even said that God's heart did not change towards sexual sins, but that being not under the law, the death penalty no longer could be applied.

The big question is, however, what was his understanding of homosexual relationships? In a society where a 13-year-old boy was hand-picked by parents to marry a 13-year-old girl, people did not have time to discover their orientation to the fullest (assuming it is something to discover), so any homosexual sex would be seen as a deviation, you were married at the onset of puberty to one of the opposite sex. So any homosexual sex would then be, by definition, adultery.

This is not necessarily so today, though many homosexuals do indeed marry members of the opposite sex, and thus adulterate themselves, having intercourse, designed as the deepest physical expression of love, with someone they do not really love.

Maybe homosexuals are called to celibacy, as a eunuch would be. Though of course, a eunuch would not have the drive to copulate, but that is, I realize, beside the point to many. To many others, though, it is not.

Let's assume you are straight and have a spouse. Let's assume that you enjoy sex with your spouse. Now, go just five years out of your life, in a row, without having sex, pretending it is forbidden, and if you engage in it then you don't really love Jesus and thus are not saved. Oh, and no self-gratification either, because that would conjure up sexual images in your mind and thus be like having sex anyway.

That is what you ask a homosexual to do for their entire life, not just five years. Certainly you can understand how hard that is for them, at the very least. Especially when they are told, by many, that the fact they are gay means they don't really love Jesus, aren't trying hard enough, etc. That translates, to many, "you're going to hell because of who you love".

This causes love to become a vice in the minds of some (I am speculating).

I used to be the ultimate fundamentalist when it came to homosexuality. It was safe, comfortable, and fun for me. Safe, because it was what I knew. Comfortable, for the same reason, plus I knew I was straight and therefore not needing to worry about it. Fun, because I enjoyed "spreading the good news" that "yes you too can become straight and get saved".

Then God decided He'd had enough of that from me, I suppose, because He came into my life in a more than superficial, John-Hagee-esque way, and now here I stand, I can do no other.

I know God is not finished working with/on me yet, and I can only pray that His will be done, even if that makes me uncomfortable in declaring to homosexuals, that they too are loved by God as they are, and are called to monogamy as heterosexual people are.

I don't know if all the prohibitions against homosexual sex are about the sex itself or not. If they are, I trust God will reveal that to me in such a way I cannot ignore it. And if they are not, I trust the same revelation will happen.

Until then, I sit on the fence, hoping it isn't barb-wire, can see both sides of the issue, partially agreeing with and partially disagreeing with both. I only appear pro-homosexuality on here sometimes to try and even out what I perceive to be a predominantly anti-homosexuality crowd. Consider me playing the part of Devil's Advocate in that regard then.

No longer under the Law? They are no longer to be put to death (under Jewish Law)..Yet, they remain worthy of death. God's heart attitude towards such sexual sin has not changed. Nor, has the Devil's.

We are ALL worthy of death. God's attitude toward any sin has not changed, so far as we know. Though if He does change a law, He has a right to do so, being God and all. But we are all worthy of death, and we all think "I'm not as bad as (insert group here)", which only makes us more worthy of death, frankly. The homosexual is no worse than the idle gossip. And they're no worse than those who spend all their time removing slivers of wood from their neighbor's eye before removing the tree from their own.
 
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GenemZ

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AngelusSigVampCSCh.jpg


Some Christians are like vampires.

They're after the blood.

But, reveal a cross? And, they take off!





.



 
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AngelusSax

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Some Christians are like vampires.

They're after the blood.

But, reveal a cross? And, they take off!

Well, the cross doesn't burn me, and I get to ingest the blood of Christ every Sunday at church hrough communion, so I guess that makes me half-vampire...

And the cross is ugly grace, but many Christians would rather have the pretty Law to appease their own self-effort-lifestyles.
 
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GenemZ

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Well, the cross doesn't burn me, and I get to ingest the blood of Christ every Sunday at church hrough communion, so I guess that makes me half-vampire...

And the cross is ugly grace, but many Christians would rather have the pretty Law to appease their own self-effort-lifestyles.


I do believe. From what I have learned from Scripture? That if you accepted and took up your cross? You would stop with this vampire image. Its anti-Christ.

How do you justify taking on such an image while representing Christianity?



Philippians 4:8
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble,
whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely,
whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
praiseworthy—think about such things."






AngelusSigVampCSCh.jpg





Philippians 4:8? That does not cut it. That is not revealing Christ's heart in the least.

Like I said, some Christians are like vampires.




.

.

.
 
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AngelusSax

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I do believe. From what I have learned from Scripture? That if you accepted and took up your cross? You would stop with this vampire image. Its anti-Christ.

How do you justify taking on such an image while representing Christianity?

Because I am capable of differentiating between fiction and reality.

Television is fun, and Angel was a good show. It dealt with issues of redemption, loss, trying to atone for past sins, as a vampire with a soul. Fans of the show would get it, non-fans probably won't. Either way...

It's FICTION.

By the way, ths sig is also a play on the media's saying about Ronald Reagan that he put a human face on the Republican Party (as opposed to apparently the Frankenstein Monster's face it had before...)
 
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AngelusSax

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That's what atheist call the bible. So how is it that they would know you understand that?
It would appear that you can't separate fact from fiction. Or so the assumption would be.

Because I understand a TV show to be fiction, I can't separate fact from fiction?

I've heard lame stupidity before, but that's just right there near the top.

Perhaps people need a lesson in learning to not judge based on appearnces. At the very least my custom sig, made my one of my dearest friends, should help in that.

And if not, well then I'll continue having a clean conscience and you all can continue trying to manufacture grievances to try and tear down a brother in Christ. It's up to you.

By the way... why the heck are we talking about my avatar/sig banner? In fact, why are we even on here at all. Real people are really starving to death around the world, and we're too busy griping back and forth on here to go out and feed them... Something is wrong... God forgive us..
 
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GenemZ

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Because I am capable of differentiating between fiction and reality.

Television is fun, and Angel was a good show. It dealt with issues of redemption, loss, trying to atone for past sins, as a vampire with a soul. Fans of the show would get it, non-fans probably won't. Either way...

It's FICTION.

By the way, ths sig is also a play on the media's saying about Ronald Reagan that he put a human face on the Republican Party (as opposed to apparently the Frankenstein Monster's face it had before...)


OK.... I can see what level you think on. So be it. Vampires reveal Christ. I get it. Its all fiction.

Christ is not fiction. Taking up our cross and denying self is not fiction.



And, the following is not fiction.


Philippians 4:8
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble,
whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely,
whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
praiseworthy—think about such things."




I can just picture a movie depicting a vampire following Christ. Everyone in the theater would wonder if its supposed to be a comedy. For sure.. It would be a joke. But? A comedy, I'm not so certain of. More like a mockery than a comedy. Some people would be shaking their heads in disbelief, wondering if they should laugh or not.


2 Corinthians 3:18
"And we, who with unveiled faces
all reflect the Lord's glory,

are being transformed into his likeness
with ever-increasing glory
,
which comes from the Lord,
who is the Spirit."




Really?


AngelusSigVampCSCh.jpg






That reflects the nature and likeness of Christ?????




What you said makes no sense in the light of God's Word. It appears it makes sense to your natural way of thinking though.

For you to give up such a notion? Would require that you deny self, take up your cross and follow Him. Follow by means of what Scripture tells us. Like I said, vampires will flee the cross. Yet, they love to suck on the blood of knowing they are forgiven no matter how poor an example they may be to others.

Vampires are avidly after the blood. But, reveal a cross to them? They flee to their own way of thinking. They refuse to abide by God's Word and elevate their own notions above God's Word. They would rather be seen as being cool to the world, than a fool for Christ in the eyes of the world.

Vampires MURDER to sustain their lives. They are murderers. They are the living dead. Satan was a murderer from the beginning.

In the mean time. Enjoy your fiction. I do hope you some day desire to reveal Christ rather than some bizarre fiction depicting Christians as vampires that play on the sympathy of the world. Sympathy for the Devil is not what Christianity is about. Nor, is it cool fiction. Its a mockery of reflecting the image of Christ in ourselves.




2 Corinthians 3:18
"And we, who with unveiled faces
all reflect the Lord's glory,
are being transformed into his likeness
with ever-increasing glory,
which comes from the Lord,
who is the Spirit."




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