Does Free Will Exist?

[jonmichael818]

(quote) "If your brain does not send signals to your legs to move here or there, then what does?"

(reply) Our brains and our legs is a part of us! They aren't outside entities that are controlling our mobility.
the way we go from here to there is we use our brains to send signals to our leg muscles to take us where we want to go

K

I know. That is why it does not "sound kinda silly," as you said in your previous post.

 

[Ken-1122]

Actually what I said sounds silly was the claim “You can’t go here or there ON YOUR OWN you have to depend upon your brain and legs to get you there”
The reason it is silly is because my brain is a part of me and the way I go from here to there is by using my brain to control my leg muscles in a way that allows me to travel.
This is an example of how I excersize free will. That machine is unable to do that; it requires an outside source (programer) to program it to do this and that; if it were left on it’s own, it would just sit there and rust.

Ken

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Actually what I said sounds silly was the claim “You can’t go here or there ON YOUR OWN you have to depend upon your brain and legs to get you there”
The reason it is silly is because my brain is a part of me and the way I go from here to there is by using my brain to control my leg muscles in a way that allows me to travel.
This is an example of how I excersize free will. That machine is unable to do that; it requires an outside source (programer) to program it to do this and that; if it were left on it’s own, it would just sit there and rust.

Ken

What if it were programmed to, say, move in a random direction and avoid obstacles? How is your brain making decisions any different from the machines CPU making decisions?

 

[Ken-1122]

(quote) "What if it were programmed to, say, move in a random direction and avoid obstacles? How is your brain making decisions any different from the machines CPU making decisions? "

(reply) would it be able to go against the program on it's own? would it be able to say....seek out a clift and jump off it in an effort to commit suicide? I can!

K

 

[Wiccan_Child]

(quote) "What if it were programmed to, say, move in a random direction and avoid obstacles? How is your brain making decisions any different from the machines CPU making decisions? "

(reply) would it be able to go against the program on it's own? would it be able to say....seek out a clift and jump off it in an effort to commit suicide? I can!

K

Indeed you can, but would that be against your programming? Again, what's the difference between a CPU making decisions on the fly according to a complex series of algorithms, and a human making decisions? How do you know that your will is any more free than the CPU's?

After all, you say you could seek out a cliff and jump off, but I doubt you actually will - your instinctive compulsion to survive is too great. How do you know that your decision to not jump off a cliff is, in fact, your decision?

 

[Ken-1122]

Wicca n child (quote) “you can, but would that be against your programming?

(reply) I have no programming

(quote) “Again, what's the difference between a CPU making decisions on the fly according to a complex series of algorithms, and a human making decisions?”

(reply) the ideas and decisions I make originate from me not an outside source

(quote)” How do you know that your will is any more free than the CPU's?”

(reply) I make my own decisions not another intelligent being

(quote) “After all, you say you could seek out a cliff and jump off, but I doubt you actually will - your instinctive compulsion to survive is too great.”

(reply) I may not jump off the cliff, but there are humans who will and have. Such is an act of free will

(quote)”How do you know that your decision to not jump off a cliff is, in fact, your decision?

(reply) because the idea originated from me; not another intelligent source

K

 

[Upisoft]

(reply) the ideas and decisions I make originate from me not an outside source

Sorry, I don't think that is correct. Suppose you are playing chess. You see really nice move and prepare for it. Your opponent makes a move. You see that your "nice move" will lead to checkmate and you will lose the game. So you play something else instead. Your ideas and decisions depend on information from outside world.

A computer will do the same (if programmed to react to outside sources).

In fact the whole idea of playing chess originates long before you have been born.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I have no programming

How do you know?

(the ideas and decisions I make originate from me not an outside source

Indeed, but how do you know they're true, free decisions? I think we both agree there's no overarching 'decision maker', but that doesn't mean your decisions are your own - how do you know you're not making choices based on very complex, very ancient, evolved algorithms?

I make my own decisions not another intelligent being

Without wanting to repeat myself - how do you know? Is it not possible your decisions are as predetermined as a computer's? The origin of the decisions may be different (programmed algorithm v evolved instincts), but how do you know your decisions are free?

I may not jump off the cliff, but there are humans who will and have. Such is an act of free will

Why is it? Their 'will' may be as much a consequence of predeterministic programming as your own - how do you know their neurology wasn't always predetermined to make them suicidal?

because the idea originated from me; not another intelligent source

Undoubtedly, but that presumes decisions are made by intelligent sources. How do you know your decisions are really free? After all, you only follow one series events - how do you know you really could have chosen differently?

 

[Ken-1122]

Upisoft (quote) “Suppose you are playing chess. You see really nice move and prepare for it. Your opponent makes a move. You see that your "nice move" will lead to checkmate and you will lose the game. So you play something else instead. Your ideas and decisions depend on information from outside world.
A computer will do the same (if programmed to react to outside sources).”


(reply) The difference between me and the computer is; I can still make that move knowing I will loose the game; the computer can’t. Many times while teaching my girlfriend to play chess, I purposely make a mistake that could easily get me into trouble just to see if she will see it and take advantage. Can the computer do that without reprograming?


Wiccan child: (quote) “I think we both agree there's no overarching 'decision maker', but that doesn't mean your decisions are your own - how do you know you're not making choices based on very complex, very ancient, evolved algorithms?..... Is it not possible your decisions are as predetermined as a computer's? The origin of the decisions may be different (programmed algorithm v evolved instincts), but how do you know your decisions are free?.... How do you know your decisions are really free? After all, you only follow one series events - how do you know you really could have chosen differently?”


(reply) How do I know? The same reason I know God, Santa, or Peter Pan does not exist; I am familiar with the claims but I have no reason to believe there is any truth to them.

Peace
Ken

 

[Wiccan_Child]

How do I know? The same reason I know God, Santa, or Peter Pan does not exist; I am familiar with the claims but I have no reason to believe there is any truth to them.

In that case, you're taking the default position by not affirming a claim. But in this case, you are affirming a claim: you're affirming that you do, in fact, have free will. How do you know that you do? You say that you could have chosen differently - but how do you know you actually could? You say your different than a computer, but the reasons you've cited are only limitations on programming - a sufficiently complex computer that could, say, deliberately lose when teaching chess.

 

[Sabbath-Keeper777]

Nah, we're all robots, constructed with little bio-machines. Try out an advanced numerology profile and if you still have free will?

 

[Ken-1122]

(quote) "You say that you could have chosen differently - but how do you know you actually could?"

(reply) Because I choose differently all the time.

(quote) "You say your different than a computer, but the reasons you've cited are only limitations on programming - a sufficiently complex computer that could, say, deliberately lose when teaching chess. "

(reply) perhaps such a computer without such limitations on programming would have free will as well.

K

 

[jonmichael818]

Because I choose differently all the time.

You can choose differently from a prior choice, but that would only be because of external or internal stimuli, experiences, and environment. Every choice you make is dependant upon your genetic and environmental conditions.

Also, what is it that makes up this "I" or "me" that you refer to? What is "I" "me" or "self?" Unless you are invoking some metaphysical entity, all we are is a lot of advanced biology, chemistry, physics.

perhaps such a computer without such limitations on programming would have free will as well.

Would a computer or biological being with more advanced programming than ourselves mean that they would have more free will than us?

Would a computer or biological being with less advanced programming than ourselves mean that they would have less free will than us?

As Wiccan Child said, it seems your opinion on free will is directly related to how complex (or lack of complexity) the programming is.

 

[Chris81]

No free will does not exist. Since the beginning of time God predestined that I would write a post, on this very thread, and at this very point in time, stating that free will does not exist.

 

[Ken-1122]

(quote)"what is it that makes up this "I" or "me" that you refer to? What is "I" "me" or "self?" Unless you are invoking some metaphysical entity, all we are is a lot of advanced biology, chemistry, physics. "

(reply) I, me, self is what did not exist before I was born, and will cease to exist after I've died

(quote)"Would a computer or biological being with more advanced programming than ourselves mean that they would have more free will than us?

Would a computer or biological being with less advanced programming than ourselves mean that they would have less free will than us?"

(reply) "more" or "less" free will is determined by the amount of choices one can make on their own

(quote) "As Wiccan Child said, it seems your opinion on free will is directly related to how complex (or lack of complexity) the programming is. "

(reply) No! complexity has nothing to do with it; it's about the ability to make a choice. The computer doesn't make the choice, the programmer does. the computer just follows the program and is unable to sway from it.

Ken

 

[chris4243]

No free will does not exist. Since the beginning of time God predestined that I would write a post, on this very thread, and at this very point in time, stating that free will does not exist.

That's odd, because since the beginning of time God predestined me to write a post stating that free will does in fact exist.

 

[Gracchus]

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." KJV Romans 7:14-15

So, Paul, speaking inerrantly in the Christian holy book says that he can't help sinning. Any Christian, then, maintaining that there is such a thing as free will, is a heretic. Of course, if there is no such thing as free will, they can't help being heretics, but they ought to be burned anyway, just to get rid of the trash.

"Kill them all, the Lord will recognize His own." -- Abbot Arnaud-Amaury

That is obviously true, and by that reasoning, one can do no greater favor for a Christian than to kill him, and send him to the righteous, but somehow merciful, judgment of God.

Sounds like a plan!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Because I choose differently all the time.

And, again, how do you know? If you 'choose' to walk into a shop, how do you know you could have chosen differently? Once you've walked into the shop, that event is in the past. There's no way to actually choose differently.

So you say you could have - but how do you know?

perhaps such a computer without such limitations on programming would have free will as well.

But it wouldn't. It still has programming, it still only does what it's programmed to do - but there's no reason why it couldn't do everything you do. What's the difference between an automaton, and you? How do you know that you really can choose freely from a number of options? How do you know your decision making thoughts aren't as predestined as your decisions themselves?

 

[Upisoft]

(reply) The difference between me and the computer is; I can still make that move knowing I will loose the game; the computer can’t.

On contrary. Computers loose games. Therefore they make moves knowing they will loose.

Many times while teaching my girlfriend to play chess, I purposely make a mistake that could easily get me into trouble just to see if she will see it and take advantage.

The same can be done by computers, which is called "difficulty setting" in this case.

Can the computer do that without reprograming?

Look above.

Anyway, the question is reversed. The real question is if you can play chess before you have been programmed (what you did for your girlfriend). The answer is no, but we can learn to play it, some better some worse. Learning is our way to be programmed. If you have been programed as a Christian it will take a lot of reprogramming to become an atheist.

 

[Chris81]

That's odd, because since the beginning of time God predestined me to write a post stating that free will does in fact exist.

Obviously God had predestined that two people named chris would have an argument about whether we have free will!