Does being a member of your religion keep you free from sin?

[ViaCrucis]

"Thoughts" and "intentions" are two different things to me. Thinking about how good it would feel to punch someone you're mad at and refraining from doing so is virtuous. However, actually planning and intending how you will carry out the act is sinful, even if something external happened to stop you from doing it.

Just speaking personally, I think wanting to punch someone and thinking how good it'd feel and not going through with it wouldn't be virtuous so much as just doing the bare minimum of what's good. The bigger problem here is that I find in myself the desire to punch someone and that I would take pleasure in the act.

I would classify that as being itself sinful.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Booko]

I think we might have had a miscomunique back at that other thread.

Oh we may have, snowfam. But it doesn't matter, I thought this subject was just interesting in its own right, even if it's not what you meant.

 

[LoAmmi]

Just speaking personally, I think wanting to punch someone and thinking how good it'd feel and not going through with it wouldn't be virtuous so much as just doing the bare minimum of what's good. The bigger problem here is that I find in myself the desire to punch someone and that I would take pleasure in the act.

I would classify that as being itself sinful.

-CryptoLutheran

I would simply disagree. I find it to hold virtue that you are able to resist your impulse than not have those impulses. Take my bacon example. Let's say the Jew is repulsed by bacon. Is that Jew virtuous because he doesn't eat what he hates, or is the other Jew who maybe is really compelled to eat bacon more virtuous because of being able to resist that impulse even if he imagines how good it would taste?

I break with Christianity that thought is sin. I find that concept to just be wrong. I don't think G-d is about thought control.

 

[Booko]

I don't even understand the question. How is sin being defined here?

Acting unethically?

 

[razeontherock]

Hi Mike
How do we train to prevent the arising of sinful thoughts?

Just interested in your opinion, because if there is a picture or a commercial on TV it is very hard not to let thoughts enter (sinful or not), and this is harder if the thoughts come from memory or from the mind itself.

And this is EXACTLY where the true work of Christianity comes in! "The battlefield is the mind"

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (2 Corinthians 10:4) For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"

That is SUCH a potent and applicable Scripture!

 

[OliverC]

And this is EXACTLY where the true work of Christianity comes in! "The battlefield is the mind"

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (2 Corinthians 10:4) For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"

That is SUCH a potent and applicable Scripture!

I have been at war with carnal desire for years, there have been skirmish victories but never an all out victory over the enemy itself. I wonder weather Christianity will be the ally I need.

Perhaps the bible has some good battle techniques?

 

[razeontherock]

I have been at war with carnal desire for years, there have been skirmish victories but never an all out victory over the enemy itself. I wonder weather Christianity will be the ally I need.

Perhaps the bible has some good battle techniques?

You BET it does! And they are all spelled out in the law of Moses - and Jews deny every one

 

[HitchSlap]

I have been at war with carnal desire for years, there have been skirmish victories but never an all out victory over the enemy itself. I wonder weather Christianity will be the ally I need.

Perhaps the bible has some good battle techniques?

Ephesians 6:10-20

 

[Mikeb85]

Hi Mike
How do we train to prevent the arising of sinful thoughts?

Just interested in your opinion, because if there is a picture or a commercial on TV it is very hard not to let thoughts enter (sinful or not), and this is harder if the thoughts come from memory or from the mind itself.

First step is to become aware of our thoughts. Where they arise from. A good exercise is to sit quietly, and just observe our thoughts. What they are, and why we think we're having them.

The next step is to try to focus them. The most basic form of meditation is to sit quietly, and observe our breath. Try to focus thought on that 1 task, nothing else. This calms the mind, and reduces the amount of thoughts we have.

It's not so much a question of preventing sinful thoughts, as it is controlling the thoughts we do have. So much comes from our unconscious, or is in response to bodily functions, that we lose control of our own thoughts. By learning to subdue these thoughts that arise, we can focus on more important, or more wholesome things.

For Christian contemplative prayer, a good practice is to kneel or sit quietly, and repeat the prayer 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner', focusing solely on the prayer, and again, trying to ignore any arising thoughts. Kneeling is good practice, your body may start to hurt, and thoughts may arise concerning that. Be aware, and try to concentrate on the prayer. Eventually you may not notice anything else.

In both these cases, it will take several (or many) unsuccessful attempts, but like with any practice, it gets easier over time.

These are the very first steps towards the contemplative life, and towards gaining mastery over one's thoughts...

 

[Mikeb85]

Fasting or eating in moderation also help with controlling our thoughts and bodies. By eating just enough to nourish ourselves, or eating minimally/not at all at times, we learn to eat according to a schedule, and not when our bodies tell us it's hungry. This helps us with discipline, and helps us control all sorts of bodily urges.

One who lives according to reactions to their environment, according to randomly arising desires lives carnally. We should strive to live according to what we want out of life, to abstain from temptations, but also to focus our energy, and to prevent self destruction (as many desires, whether it's too much unhealthy food, alcohol, sex, etc..., can cause harm to our bodies and minds).

 

[gord44]

Mike speaks a lot of truth there.

The Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God...etc) was my first step into meditation. It helped a lot.

Meditation is so helpful for controlling your thoughts and focusing on God. I follow more of a druid path now and use some techniques I learned from them. Either way, you can't go wrong with meditation.

The key when beginning is don't get mad when your mind wanders. It WILL happen. If you find your mind has wandered, acknowledge it and then return to your meditation. If you get upset everytime your mind wanders, you will just get frustrated.

Grace and peace.

 

[Forge3]

Mike speaks a lot of truth there.

The Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God...etc) was my first step into meditation. It helped a lot.

Meditation is so helpful for controlling your thoughts and focusing on God. I follow more of a druid path now and use some techniques I learned from them. Either way, you can't go wrong with meditation.

The key when beginning is don't get mad when your mind wanders. It WILL happen. If you find your mind has wandered, acknowledge it and then return to your meditation. If you get upset everytime your mind wanders, you will just get frustrated.

Grace and peace.

Yes. Being 'mindful' and starting again. Jack Kornfield calls this training the puppy.

 

[JJWhite]

Just speaking personally, I think wanting to punch someone and thinking how good it'd feel and not going through with it wouldn't be virtuous so much as just doing the bare minimum of what's good. The bigger problem here is that I find in myself the desire to punch someone and that I would take pleasure in the act.

I would classify that as being itself sinful.

Personally, I have no desire to punch anybody whatsoever... lol... but if someone had such thoughts, they would not be held accountable for them as long as they refrained from acting upon them, in my opinion. When I'm thinking 'sin', I'm thinking accountability. To stop oneself from acting upon negative thoughts and feelings is virtuous... to train oneself to have good thoughts instead of bad ones is preferable and even more virtuous... but it's all about the effort, in my opinion. Someone who struggles with that and puts in a lot of effort to train himself to think more positively would get more applause from me than someone who is naturally more laid back and doesn't anger easily, for example.

 

[JJWhite]

I might also want to add that entertaining negative thoughts is a bad idea, because by doing so, one is way more likely to have those thoughts influence words and actions, for which a person will be held accountable.

 

[OliverC]

Fasting or eating in moderation also help with controlling our thoughts and bodies......

Hi Mikeb85
That is helpful, especially the part about controlling our appetite to help control our desires. I have observed that someone who lusts a lot tends to also suffer from gluttony - both are related in that way. Are you following a specific religion?

The Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God...etc) was my first step into meditation. It helped a lot.

Meditation is so helpful for controlling your thoughts and focusing on God. I follow more of a druid path now and use some techniques I learned from them. Either way, you can't go wrong with meditation.

Grace and peace.

Thanks for the input Gord96,
I am curious how you include druid teaching in your practice.

Personally, I have no desire to punch anybody whatsoever... lol... but if someone had such thoughts, they would not be held accountable for them as long as they refrained from acting upon them, in my opinion. When I'm thinking 'sin', I'm thinking accountability. To stop oneself from acting upon negative thoughts and feelings is virtuous... to train oneself to have good thoughts instead of bad ones is preferable and even more virtuous... but it's all about the effort, in my opinion. Someone who struggles with that and puts in a lot of effort to train himself to think more positively would get more applause from me than someone who is naturally more laid back and doesn't anger easily, for example.

I might also want to add that entertaining negative thoughts is a bad idea, because by doing so, one is way more likely to have those thoughts influence words and actions, for which a person will be held accountable.

Hi JJWhite
I found myself agreeing with all your posts above. It is my experience also that if you don't like the negative thoughts then the next step is to stop entertaining them and also train oneself to think good thoughts in their place. It is a powerful approach and shows spiritual maturity because one is going against pleasure and habit; both of which define who we think we are. In some ways I think this is what much of the religious teaching is about, for example the negative thoughts can be represented by Satan (something we are familiar with as a child as a being in himself), but later in our spiritual life we start to see the battle in the mind (something Razeontherock speaks of above too).

 

[Mikeb85]

Hi Mikeb85
That is helpful, especially the part about controlling our appetite to help control our desires. I have observed that someone who lusts a lot tends to also suffer from gluttony - both are related in that way. Are you following a specific religion?

My philosophy and practice come from Theravada and early Buddhism, but there's a lack of Theravada temples in my area (most are Zen or Tibetan). Theravada is interesting in that there is no 'god' or deity to worship, and emphasizes the teachings of the Buddha, rather than devotion as some other sects do (Pure Land, Tibetan).

I also still go to an Orthodox Church once in awhile, and still really love that faith, and my practice today is very close to what it was when I was Orthodox. Orthodox Christianity is not only the closest to early Christianity, it's also (in my opinion) the most up-lifting, focuses on God's mercy and Christ's victory (as opposed to God's wrath and Christ's crucifixion), and offers the best spiritual practice.

If you're curious about Buddhism Pali Canon Online has many of Buddha's writings.

If you're curious about Orthodox Christianity www.orthodoxinfo.com has a huge collection.

 

[LoAmmi]

You BET it does! And they are all spelled out in the law of Moses - and Jews deny every one

Could you explain your jab at Jews a bit?

Repeated behavior (following the Torah, for example) becomes habit. Habit will help to get rid of the desires to do something else, because one will be used to doing things the habitual way.

It's just like the question how does one become a good person? Pretend to be a good person. After a while, you will simply act like a good person without thinking about it.

 

[OliverC]

I also still go to an Orthodox Church once in awhile, and still really love that faith, and my practice today is very close to what it was when I was Orthodox. Orthodox Christianity is not only the closest to early Christianity, it's also (in my opinion) the most up-lifting, focuses on God's mercy and Christ's victory (as opposed to God's wrath and Christ's crucifixion), and offers the best spiritual practice.


If you're curious about Orthodox Christianity Home :: Orthodox Christian Information Center has a huge collection.

Thanks Mike, I really want to learn about Orthodox Christianity, but I am still beginning with Christianity itself Perhaps I can call on your experience and knowledge of Orthodox Christianity in more depth in the near future (in a different thread)?

How does the Orthodox Christians explain how we can overcome sin, as per the OP?

 

[bling]

Thanks Mike, I really want to learn about Orthodox Christianity, but I am still beginning with Christianity itself Perhaps I can call on your experience and knowledge of Orthodox Christianity in more depth in the near future (in a different thread)?

How does the Orthodox Christians explain how we can overcome sin, as per the OP?

Did you get a chance to read Ro. 8?

Do you have any questions?

 

[OliverC]

Hi Bling
I started then had to go to bed.
I need some structure as I have so many quesitons so I have started with John's gospel and will read it from there to the end and come back to the start. When I get to the end of Romans I will remember this. Sorry, it is on my mind. Thanks for following up, that is kind of you.