Does autism affect your relationship with God?

[Jonaitis]

I have AS. It has helped me immensely in learning about a wide range of subjects in Scripture and theology, but it has kept me struggling in social circles. While I like bible studies and having long winded conversations on the topics, I have problems with having normal conversations for fellowship.

 

[Augustinosia]

New in the forums so I thought I'd pitch in.

I feel like my autism has slowed down my ability to approach God.
Going to church has always been about managing the social contact and the loud noises, rather than learning about God.
Reading the bible has been tough because there are so many people and places mentioned, I can't keep track of who's who and where they're located.

Meeting humans feels overwhelming and difficult enough, so approaching God feels very difficult.
I've accepted Jesus as my saviour but I feel no connection to him, just like I feel no connection to other people. It makes me sad, because I want both people and Jesus in my life.

No matter how slow my progress is though, I keep coming back. Maybe that's a little piece of Jesus in me.

This. Exactly this. I believe in and trust the Lord, love him on some level, but find it very hard to connect with Him on an emotional level. When people talk about how passionately they love Him, He's the most important thing in their lives and He's all they need, I can't identify or make myself 'feel' the same way. I feel perplexed (and sometimes condemned) by Mark 12:30 - but it's got to mean love as more than just a deep heartfelt emotion, surely?

I find forging deep, enduring bonds and connections with people very difficult; in a way, I find it even more difficult with God who I can't sense with my physical senses.

Despite the difficulty feeling and connecting with God in an emotional sense, I definitely connect on and feel drawn to Him on some level - as I sense, at times, He has drawn me in a manner beyond logic and emotion that I can only attribute to the Holy Spirit. Despite the lack of 'feels', life without Him, or even (during doubting Thomas seasons) a sense of something or someone outside of myself and bigger than life as I perceive it, feels empty and meaningless. This persists beyond and despite challenges like sensory overload and social awkwardness and anxiety at church or difficulty getting to church due to physical distance or lockdowns. When I can, I go to church despite the difficulties, as I suck at 'lone wolf' Christianity and the communal worship and prayer strengthens and deepens both my relationship to God and other people. I could never be an atheist.

 

[Sabertooth]

When people talk about how passionately they love Him, He's the most important thing in their lives and He's all they need, I can't identify or make myself 'feel' the same way. I feel perplexed (and sometimes condemned) by Mark 12:30 - but it's got to mean love as more than just a deep heartfelt emotion, surely?

My love for Him has grown out of the deepest respect for Him as the most elegant* Engineer. His engineering prowess touches every part of my life and, indeed, all of Creation. (One of the functions of the Holy Spirit is Mentor. God is my cherished Mentor/Father.)

I do not always understand what He is doing, but the things that He has made me able to understand cause me to trust Him implicitly.

When I do not understand what He is doing, I feel just like His disciples did when He said,

“Do you also want to go away?”​

But Simon Peter answered Him,

“Lord, to whom shall we go?
You [alone] have the words of eternal life...” John 6:67-68 NKJV​

*In engineering, "elegance" means "a solution that is thorough [holistic?], pleasingly ingenious and uncomplicated;..."

Where Could I Go But to The Lord?

 

[AshBlackburn]

It does effect my relationship in some ways it makes it deeper but in others makes it far, far harder for me. I struggle to ask God for what I need because I don't know what that is.

 

[Emily Write]

A lot of you are saying it's harder to be close to God, but my autism has actually helped bring me closer to God because it has taught me a lot about how Jesus sees people and how I ought to love others with various experiences and struggles.

If anything from the experiences I have heard from autistic who turned from the faith involved a lot of abuse in the church growing up when they should have been loved on instead.

 

[muichimotsu]

A lot of you are saying it's harder to be close to God, but my autism has actually helped bring me closer to God because it has taught me a lot about how Jesus sees people and how I ought to love others with various experiences and struggles.

If anything from the experiences I have heard from autistic who turned from the faith involved a lot of abuse in the church growing up when they should have been loved on instead.

Hate to rain on that parade, but even after seeing a far more friendly and open church in the Episcopal Church and plenty of others when I went to a college nearby, it still didn't pull me back in even after I'd essentially abandoned any need for belief in any kind of deity, let alone a personal one like the Abrahamic faiths speak of.

Not sure of how your experience would reflect on others, but the more recent model where autistic people are more empathic, but that causes them to internalize the issues of social interaction, makes the note about understanding others fit. But one can find that sentiment across history, cultures and religions and philosophies.

I'm not going so far as, "to each their own" in the sense that everything is equally right, but a more fundamental solution would be more acceptance and understanding of neurodiversity from the start and seeing how it interacts with things like faith, politics, etc.

 

[Sabertooth]

...but a more fundamental solution would be more acceptance and understanding of neurodiversity from the start and seeing how it interacts with things like faith, politics, etc.

What complicates autism politics is the failure to recognize that

1. neuro-diversity is good, but
2. severe co-morbid conditions are bad (whether one is autistic or not).
3. Minor co-morbids are just quirks.

#1 includes ASD1s & gifteds.
#2 turns ASD1s into ASD2s & 3s. Their healed (and pre-injured) state is ASD1.

 

[muichimotsu]

What complicates autism politics is the failure to recognize that

1. neuro-diversity is good, but
2. severe co-morbid conditions are bad (whether one is autistic or not).
3. Minor co-morbids are just quirks.

#1 includes ASD1s & gifteds.
#2 turns ASD1s into ASD2s & 3s. Their healed (and pre-injured) state is ASD1.

Not sure where advocates are suggesting we shouldn't address mental health issues even taking into account something not solely social in terms of what constitutes mental illness

Also uncertain how one distinguishes the severe and minor comorbidities, because if they both interfere with daily life in some way, not sure the distinction is entirely necessary

 

[Sabertooth]

Not sure where advocates are suggesting we shouldn't address mental health issues even taking into account something not solely social in terms of what constitutes mental illness

Some 2s & 3s expect their co-morbid conditions to be embraced without question as much as their base neuro-diverse condition.

Also uncertain how one distinguishes the severe and minor comorbidities, because if they both interfere with daily life in some way, not sure the distinction is entirely necessary

In the DSM-5, ASD has severity levels assigned.
They are not based on IQ, but on how much support the person needs in their daily lives.
If one's severity level is 1, their total co-morbid impact is minimal.
That is not so with severity levels of 2 or 3.

 

[muichimotsu]

Some 2s & 3s expect their co-morbid conditions to be embraced without question as much as their base neuro-diverse condition.

In the DSM-5, ASD has severity levels assigned.
They are not based on IQ, but on how much support the person needs in their daily lives.
If one's severity level is 1, their total co-morbid impact is minimal.
That is not so with severity levels of 2 or 3.

So someone with autism that has comorbid, say, depression and some other comorbid condition doesn't need more assistance?

Acceptance is distinct from genuine assistance, neurotypicals condescending is not beneficial to the situation, it just reinforces ableism and microaggressions thereof that can lead to masking, imposter syndrome, etc.

If, as I suspect, I have comorbid ADHD for instance, I'm not saying that should be treated the same as my ASD or that I should be given some exceptional treatment rather than accommodations reasonable to my situation.

And embracing the condition does not follow to treating it the same as things that can have benefits to them, versus those that are more maladaptive than any attempt to find a silver lining, such as one can with ADHD, ASD, etc

 

[Sabertooth]

So someone with autism that has comorbid, say, depression and some other comorbid condition doesn't need more assistance?

Does the therapist assigning one a severity level mean that?
Severity level is a measure of total incapacitation, not a description of the particulars contributing to it. I am sorry if I didn't make that point clear, earlier.

And one can certainly get help for their depression, even if they are able to manage their daily affairs, otherwise. That is what depressed NTs have to do, too.

And embracing the condition does not follow to treating it the same as things that can have benefits to them, versus those that are more maladaptive than any attempt to find a silver lining, such as one can with ADHD, ASD, etc

You are still conflating base autism with severe co-morbids, which are auxiliary.
A co-morbid load is only severe, if it brings your ASD level to 1.x+ .

My main co-morbid is prosopagnosia. It doesn't move me away from ASD1. I have all of the social abnormality that one might expect in a 2e, but none of them diminish my functioning level below that of base autism.

 

[muichimotsu]

Does the therapist assigning one a severity level mean that?
Severity level is a measure of total incapacitation, not a description of the particulars contributing to it. I am sorry if I didn't make that point clear, earlier.

Even the numbers can be subjective to a degree, given that it's autism spectrum disorder

And one can certainly get help for their depression, even if they are able to manage their daily affairs, otherwise. That is what depressed NTs have to do, too.

The problem is bigger than the neurodiversity acceptance angle, because mental healthcare seems to still be stigmatized among the general population of the world more often than not.

You are still conflating base autism with severe co-morbids, which are auxiliary.
A co-morbid load is only severe, if it brings your ASD level to 1.x+ .

So where do we draw that line? Is it 2 co morbids or is it 3/4/5/etc? Would just having 1 of a certain "level" move you to level 2 ASD?

My main co-morbid is prosopagnosia. It doesn't move me away from ASD1. I have all of the social abnormality that one might expect in a 2e, but none of them diminish my functioning level below that of base autism.

Face blindness is a difficulty, though yeah, it probably wouldn't be as severe necessarily. Mood disorders, personality disorders, things like that would probably compound the issues that already exist for neurodivergent people

 

[Sabertooth]

Even the numbers can be subjective to a degree, given that it's autism spectrum disorder

So, the DSM-5 severity levels should be disregarded, then...?

So where do we draw that line? Is it 2 co morbids or is it 3/4/5/etc? Would just having 1 of a certain "level" move you to level 2 ASD?

It is a cumulative estimate. It could be the result of one big co-morbid (like severe cognitive deficit) or multiple smaller ones, etc.

 

[muichimotsu]

So, the DSM-5 severity levels should be disregarded, then...?

It is a cumulative estimate. It could be the result of one big co-morbid (like severe cognitive deficit) or multiple smaller ones, etc.

Disregarded, no, better qualified and specified, which is the goal of any DSM change, afaik.

Emphasis is more estimate than the cumulative, though the question of what constitutions big or small for these is its own discussion

 

[Sabertooth]

Disregarded, no, better qualified and specified, which is the goal of any DSM change, afaik.

You do not have the standing to exert such revisions. (And I refuse to move this dialogue to the less objective "my ideals vs. your ideals.")

 

[muichimotsu]

You do not have the standing to exert such revisions. (And I refuse to move this dialogue to the less objective "my ideals vs. your ideals.")

Not sure I ever claimed I could change revisions, you're taking my statements in a way that seems very uncharitable to my objections about how the DSM V is more than just authoritative, it might as well be taken without question, which is unscientific.

 

[Sabertooth]

Not sure I ever claimed I could change revisions, you're taking my statements in a way that seems very uncharitable to my objections about how the DSM V is more than just authoritative, it might as well be taken without question, which is unscientific.

Disregarded, no, better qualified and specified, which is the goal of any DSM change, afaik.

Fine-tuning how you think they should be understood is a personal revision. (I won't go there with you.)

I am an ASD1 father of ASD1, 2 & 3 children. Squabbling over where the exact lines between them should be, in terms of support needed, is really a waste of bandwidth (and only serves to obfuscate the issue). Uncertain cases are colloquially known as ASD0.x, ASD1.x & ASD2.x. (That is refined enough for me.)

In practical terms,

ASD3 usually requires a legal guardian of person;
ASD2, a legal guardian of estate; and
ASD1, neither.​

 

[muichimotsu]

Fine-tuning how you think they should be understood is a personal revision. (I won't go there with you.)

I am an ASD1 father of ASD1, 2 & 3 children. Squabbling over where the exact lines between them should be, in terms of support needed, is really a waste of bandwidth (and only serves to obfuscate the issue). Uncertain cases are colloquially known as ASD0.x, ASD1.x & ASD2.x. (That is refined enough for me.)

In practical terms,

ASD3 usually requires a legal guardian of person;
ASD2, a legal guardian of estate; and
ASD1, neither.​

Not sure I debated those categories, but how comorbidity is going to factor into that assessment. There's going to be fluidity and you acknowledge as much, they're not non overlapping in terms of one potentially leading into another, especially if there are issues of communication, masking, etc.

I put up a good front, but honestly, my executive function has gotten far worse, not to mention imposter syndrome and even possible social anxiety disorder or related problems that make me so self conscious that I can't take compliments remotely. But to everyone around me, even my family, I seem "fine" because otherwise I would be seen as a "burden" if I admitted a problem because of an upbringing that implicitly treats mental illness like a character flaw that you can just "work past" or such.

 

[Sabertooth]

I put up a good front, but honestly, my executive function has gotten far worse, not to mention imposter syndrome and even possible social anxiety disorder or related problems that make me so self conscious that I can't take compliments remotely. But to everyone around me, even my family, I seem "fine" because otherwise I would be seen as a "burden" if I admitted a problem because of an upbringing that implicitly treats mental illness like a character flaw that you can just "work past" or such.

Do you (or would you) need a guardian of person or estate to maintain your affairs?

Before Dr. Lorna Wing (and to many people today), autism was what we now call ASD2 & 3. (Aspergers/ASD1 was not even a diagnosis. We were just geeks, nerds & other eccentrics.)

Before 1979, said autism only occurred in 1:10K births, which is the same rate as naturally-occurring triplets. In studying that increase, they found us, the ASD1s.
Dr. Martha Herbert believes (as do I) that ASD1 is the base, hereditary condition. It is an expression of neuro-diversity that is very similar to the neurology that we call giftedness.

One of the down sides (to both) is that we tend to have oversensitive immune systems [a.k.a. immune dysregulation] that are more easily injured than those of NTs. After 1979, there appears to be a new [unknown toxin?] that is injuring us in unprecedented numbers, during early childhood. Those secondary injuries are not autism. They are auxiliary incidents of brain damage [co-morbid conditions] that we happen to be more susceptible to. They --not our base autism [ASD1]-- are responsible for the increased severity [2s & 3s] that we are seeing.

At their pre-1979 rates, they were so rare that it was nearly impossible to compare those cases, to look for common denominators. When you factor in the (now-recognized) ASD1s, those severe co-morbids were extremely rare even for us.

 

[muichimotsu]

Do you (or would you) need a guardian of person or estate to maintain your affairs?

Before Dr. Lorna Wing (and to many people today), autism was what we now call ASD2 & 3. (Aspergers/ASD1 was not even a diagnosis. We were just geeks, nerds & other eccentrics.)

Before 1979, said autism only occurred in 1:10K births, which is the same rate as naturally-occurring triplets. In studying that increase, they found us, the ASD1s.
Dr. Martha Herbert believes (as do I) that ASD1 is the base, hereditary condition. It is an expression of neuro-diversity that is very similar to the neurology that we call giftedness.

One of the down sides (to both) is that we tend to have oversensitive immune systems that are more easily injured than those of NTs. After 1979, there appears to be a new [unknown toxin?] that is injuring us in unprecedented numbers, during early childhood. Those secondary injuries are not autism. They are auxiliary incidents of brain damage [co-morbid conditions] that we happen to be more susceptible to. They --not our base autism [ASD1]-- are responsible for the increased severity [2s & 3s] that we are seeing.

At their pre-1979 rates, they were so rare that it was nearly impossible to compare those cases, to look for common denominators. When you factor in the (now-recognized) ASD1s, those severe co-morbids were extremely rare even for us.

I mean...the immune system aspect seems variable, but that's the case for neurotypicals as well.

More of the issues become how much the difference in brain wiring, etc for even ASD 1 may predispose to other co morbid issues of mood, personality and other mental disorders.

Me not needing something to that degree does not mean we should just be cut loose like a chick from the nest and be expected to flourish like our neurotypical peers. The world in general still has a major problem that needs to be addressed not only with mental healthcare and its stigma, but the idea that neurodiversity is somehow dangerous to societal harmony or other similar notions