Do you expect an apology from any future non-virgin girlfriend/boyfriend?

[Carri20]

I believe in life-long marriage, thus dating a non-virgin is wrong. Nothing todo with sin.

Unless your zygote and her zygote were somehow joined in marriage by a third zygote, there is no such thing as a "life-long marriage". Marriage begins when you get married.

Memories are a consequence, having exposed yourself to someone has a consequence in both of your memories (there are typically other consequences, but those vary). Our memories are part of who we are in this world of the senses and impact how we act.

So if someone were to have sex, then get konked on the head and have no recollection of ever having had sex, you would consider them a virgin?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you say you used to look at porn? Well since your memory of that is still intact, I'd say you'd better narrow your search for a mate even further to someone who also has images of hot sweaty naked people burned into their brain. That way you'd be even. You know, since Jesus said you're guilty of sexual sin just for looking at a person the wrong way, I'd say you're no virgin at all and therefore you should take your own "advice" and not marry someone who has saved herself--including her eyes--for her husband. I guess that would leave you celibate. I can hear the joyful cheering of my gender already.

In the case of (b), it is their interpretation of signs from God which are discriminators. The (b) people often end up being wrong in which case they acknowledge their role in identifying God's will.

I'll have you know that my father and mother were joined by God and they have a better marriage than most couples I've met in my 20 years. If you go looking for signs then yes you may falter, but if you have enough faith to wait for a direct word from God then error becomes impossible. When that happens you know what you know because you know it, not just because you said "ok God if I'm supposed to marry Suzie, let the traffic light turn green within the next 60 seconds..."

1 - I think adultry is wrong.
2 - I don't think reoccurring adultry is any more wrong than a singular instance of adultry.
3 - Thus, that adultry may happen is no different than that it has happened.
4 - Thus the wrongness is inherent to the act, which is consensual sex with someone aside from the spouse.
5 - Thus adultry is no more wrong than fornication.
6 - Per 1), fornication should be treated as adultry.

The blatant difference between fornication and adultery lies in your #4--In fornication, THERE IS NO SPOUSE. For adultery to occur you need to first have a marriage. There is no marriage until you get married, so your "life-long marriage" idea is ridiculous. It is true that fornication and adultery are equally sinful, but they are still two very different acts and SHOULD NOT be "treated" the same way in every instance. Fornicators can still get married to someone other than the person they fornicated with because fornication can be forgotten by God, as if IT NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL. Adulterers who end up divorced cannot get married to someone other than their original marriage partner because their marriage cannot be forgotten by God.

If your rights and wrongs don't match up with God's then there is something wrong with YOU. Not with anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[Carri20]

I never said it was a vice for you. Quit putting words in my(and waterbears) mouth. I said it was a vice for the particular guy you were dating.

I'm just making good and sure you understand that sex is not a vice to all people who have had sex. I can never be sure with people who twist truths in so many other ways.

And so let me get this straight...you HAVE to give someone at least one chance? But it's ok to not give him two?

Of course you don't have to give everyone a chance. But the decision should be based on who the person is today, and not what mistakes they may have made years or decades ago. It's stupid to reject someone you would have otherwise loved and enjoyed being with based solely on a sin she's already been forgiven and healed of.

And what about an ex-pedophile child rapist? Say he did it 5 years ago, and he's accepted Christ and been forgiven, are you gonna give him a chance? By your logic, you have to give him at least one chance. I mean it's all in the past right?

He would have to meet the same requirements as anyone else:

1. He must be a born-again Christian.
2. We must be able to get along.
3. I must have God's approval after prayer.

And they usually go in that order. The way I see it, if you have told a single lie, your sin is just as great as that of a rapist. The consequences may differ but I still don't doubt my God's ability to change lives and overcome obstacles.

Seriously, there is NOTHING wrong with remembering what a person has done in the past.

That's what Satan says anyway.

Our past and our history is what makes us who we are, even our sins.

First of all if you're saved then God makes you who you are, not your sins. If you're letting your sins make you who you are then you have a problem a lot more serious than mere bigotry.

Whether or not you will admit it or understand it, there is a difference in the mindset of a virgin vs. a non-virgin, even if it's just a slight difference.

Why don't you tell me exactly what that is then, hmm? You can't just pull a comment out of the seat of your pants like that and then not back it up.

You HAVE to learn a persons past to know there potential future.

It probably is good to learn a person's past before marrying them, but that past SHOULD NOT be held against them as some kind of "indication" of the future. Sharing histories should only be done so that any potential problem area can be worked through in a positive way, not so that you can balk and whine and create more problems for both of you in the present.

 

[Carri20]

There's nothing wrong with being picky on the subject of choosing a marriage partner, but you'd better be good and careful what requirements you set. God knows your heart even better than you do, and I'd say refusing to date someone based on some forgiven past occurrance is a huge heart issue. Namely pride.

 

[MrDude]

He would have to meet the same requirements as anyone else:

1. He must be a born-again Christian.
2. We must be able to get along.
3. I must have God's approval after prayer.


And they usually go in that order. The way I see it, if you have told a single lie, your sin is just as great as that of a rapist. The consequences may differ but I still don't doubt my God's ability to change lives and overcome obstacles.

Wow... just wow. And I don't feel like hijacking the thread and arguing about some sins being greater than others right now, so I'll just ignore this for now.

That's what Satan says anyway.

Yeah you keep telling yourself that. Thank God Almighty people with your mindset aren't in the majority and in too many high places of power, otherwise we'd have even more con-artists and greedy self-serving politicians than we already have.

First of all if you're saved then God makes you who you are, not your sins. If you're letting your sins make you who you are then you have a problem a lot more serious than mere bigotry.

WRONG. Every thing has a reaction. It's called causality. Everything we see, choose, and feel effects us in some way, even if it just imbeds itself into our subconscious. No where in the Bible does it say once we accept Christ we suddenly become this 100% good and clean creature. Once we accept Christ, we begin our journey towards improving ourself and maturing in our relationship with God. But this is a journey that lasts until the end of your life. Our pasts sins still effect us, and our sinful natures are still part of our personality.

Why don't you tell me exactly what that is then, hmm? You can't just pull a comment out of the seat of your pants like that and then not back it up.

You have a somewhat jaded view of the whole thing. You KNOW what it's like. You've experienced it. You've experienced being inside of another human/having another human being inside of you. As opposed to somehow who's never done that, never been that close to someone. This action WILL drill itself and stay in your subconscious.

 

[Tink]

I've addressed this by the separation of "wrong" from "sin" - "wrongness" is a necessary discriminator that functions within bounds of what's moral behavior. Notions of "wrongness" is what decides on a single spouse out of 1 million eligible Christians. What's continuing is this instance that fornication only treated as a sin, rather than something which may be subjectively decided as wrong as thus used as a discriminator.

The curious thing about this insistance of fornication as only as sin is that as long as something wrong also offends God, it's consequences shall be removed. Whereas any wrongness which doesn't offend God (which must exist for necessary discretion), the consequences may be acknowledged. This makes sin not worthy of any concern, since it alone apparently escapes causing anything which may be viewed as significiant.

As for how this comes off to other people, I've looked at porn in the past. One can easily construct a paradigm where me having done that is worse than someone having fornicated. I don't mind if someone refuses to date me because of anything in my past (well I may try to change their mind, but it's still their right to create their own discriminators). When you accept the discretion of others, it no longer has much emotional impact

I get so wary of not understanding your point-of-view that your words start appearing as "blah blah blah"...I guess I better just step out of the discussion.

Good luck finding your virgin wife, brother.

Please accept my sincere apologies if I have offended you in any way.

In His love,
Tink

 

[Carri20]

Yeah you keep telling yourself that.

Don't you get it by now? I don't "tell" myself anything. I don't have to. The Bible tells me plenty.

Satan accused God to Eve (Genesis 3:4-5). He accused Job to God (Job 1:8-11; 2:4-5). He accused, or resisted, Joshua the high priest (Zechariah 3:1-2). And he will accuse, condemn, and trouble you with many evil condemnations.

http://www.pathlights.com/Bible%20School/FB19.htm

Revelations 12:9-11 -- And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Thank God Almighty people with your mindset aren't in the majority and in too many high places of power, otherwise we'd have even more con-artists and greedy self-serving politicians than we already have.

See now this doesn't even make sense, and I can't respond to an insult I don't understand.

No where in the Bible does it say once we accept Christ we suddenly become this 100% good and clean creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17 -- Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What other opinions of yours don't match up with the Bible I wonder?

Our pasts sins still effect us, and our sinful natures are still part of our personality.

The first part of that statement is sometimes true, not always, and the last part is even less likely for a true Christian. My personality did not suddenly change on the night I committed fornication. It DID change, however, on the night I accepted Christ's forgiveness and God blotted that sin and all others off of my record. I'd still like to know what magical personality glitch takes place the instant a person has sex outside of marriage.

You have a somewhat jaded view of the whole thing. You KNOW what it's like. You've experienced it. You've experienced being inside of another human/having another human being inside of you. As opposed to somehow who's never done that, never been that close to someone. This action WILL drill itself and stay in your subconscious.

Your unChristian accusations fail to penetrate my spiritual armor.

 

[Carri20]

You have a somewhat jaded view of the whole thing. You KNOW what it's like. You've experienced it.

Wait a minute... You have a point here! I do know what it's like! And because of that I also know that having sinned sexually doesn't make me any less deserving of a virgin marriage partner. In fact it doesn't even make me different from a virgin at all, except that now I have a better understanding and can be more compassionate towards people in this situation than most virgins can. So if anything I truly am better off! I don't know why I didn't see this sooner. God DOES take bad situations and make them into something better than we ever dreamed! If I hadn't experienced what I did and learned what I learned, I would probably still be as naive and narrow-minded as you. Thanks for showing me that. No really, honestly, from the bottom of my heart, thanks.

 

[waterbear]

Unless your zygote and her zygote were somehow joined in marriage by a third zygote, there is no such thing as a "life-long marriage". Marriage begins when you get married.

The social ceremony is quaint, but social approval means very little to me. In the event I wed someone, I would consider that person my spouse from our births to our deaths (exempting of course adultry, in which case the relationship would be undone).

So if someone were to have sex, then get konked on the head and have no recollection of ever having had sex, you would consider them a virgin?

If you have no reason to believe you've had sex, then you would presumably consider yourself a virgin. That's true for any virgin.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you say you used to look at porn? Well since your memory of that is still intact, I'd say you'd better narrow your search for a mate even further to someone who also has images of hot sweaty naked people burned into their brain. That way you'd be even. You know, since Jesus said you're guilty of sexual sin just for looking at a person the wrong way, I'd say you're no virgin at all and therefore you should take your own "advice" and not marry someone who has saved herself--including her eyes--for her husband. I guess that would leave you celibate. I can hear the joyful cheering of my gender already.

As I said, if I'm not dated on that accord, fine, tis her discretion. Personally, I worry about not exposing myself (as a sexually mature being, to distinguish from the infancy & early childhood years) to anyone of the opposite gender. And I have not done that. I have no problems dating someone who has seen things, but not exposed herself. All that said, I do believe I am damaged for what I've seen and porn is certainly my biggest regret in this life, but my regret doesn't change what happened.

I'll have you know that my father and mother were joined by God and they have a better marriage than most couples I've met in my 20 years. If you go looking for signs then yes you may falter, but if you have enough faith to wait for a direct word from God then error becomes impossible. When that happens you know what you know because you know it, not just because you said "ok God if I'm supposed to marry Suzie, let the traffic light turn green within the next 60 seconds..."

At least one of my parents has never been Christian - they've been married 25 yrs probably because divorce is almost unheard of in my family. I know of other non-Christian households with long, reasonably happy marriages.

The blatant difference between fornication and adultery lies in your #4--In fornication, THERE IS NO SPOUSE. For adultery to occur you need to first have a marriage. There is no marriage until you get married, so your "life-long marriage" idea is ridiculous. It is true that fornication and adultery are equally sinful, but they are still two very different acts and SHOULD NOT be "treated" the same way in every instance. Fornicators can still get married to someone other than the person they fornicated with because fornication can be forgotten by God, as if IT NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL. Adulterers who end up divorced cannot get married to someone other than their original marriage partner because their marriage cannot be forgotten by God.

If your rights and wrongs don't match up with God's then there is something wrong with YOU. Not with anyone who disagrees with you.

You're getting into sin again; I was discussing something I think is wrong - not something I think is sinful. There are more things wrong (hopefully) than sinful (this is where the notion of a discriminator came from). It's also been pointed out (frequently) that forgetting sin, as a paradigm, neither happens in the world of the senses nor is something that should happen.

Appended: The most general form of "spouse" to me is "potential future spouse". I only believe in a singular spouse (no remarriage) and I'm using the term to describe both the spouse that exists at this point in time, has existed at some point in time, or will exist at some point in time - to me these should be the same person.

 

[Arikereba]

Actually you're completely wrong, it's no different. I mean if the guy cheats, and asks forgiveness from his girlfriend, then it's in the past already. Even one second ago is considered the past.

Unless, you've got some crazy rule that something has to be so old to be considered past. So, sins that are committed a year or longer ago are ok to be forgiven and forgotten? But ones within the last year must still be remembered? Hmmm...

Seriously, I don't agree with a lot of what waterbear says, but he has every right to only be willing to marry a virgin, and he has every right to pick and choose the qualities he wants in an S/O. Anyone criticising him for that needs to take a step back and shut up.

No--if my boyfriend cheated on me, I would forgive him, and I would take him back if I had reason enough to believe he wouldn't do it again. If I had reason to think he'd cheat on me again, then I'd still forgive him, and wish him happiness from a distance. Past is past. What's important is whether it means anything for the future. And that has to be decided on an individual basis, based on knowing a person closely and having some idea of their character.

(Forgiving a person and wanting them to stay your boyfriend/girlfriend are two completely different things).

No, I agree though--Waterbear can choose to do whatever he wants with his life. I hope that he can find someone who lives up to his standards.

I just disagree with the rhetoric about what forgiveness means, and I wanted to say that not because of any disagreement I have with Waterbear's personal decisions, but because women get kept in abusive marriages with "you have to forgive the guy." Or, on the opposite side, people who say "you shouldn't forgive people if they do really bad stuff." And I think the distinction between forgiveness and making yourself into a doormat is one that needs to be stressed.

 

[rebel_conservative]

I think that you can forgive an abuser or an adulterer, but still leave. I don't see a conflict between the two.

 

[waterbear]

I get so wary of not understanding your point-of-view that your words start appearing as "blah blah blah"...I guess I better just step out of the discussion.

Good luck finding your virgin wife, brother.

Please accept my sincere apologies if I have offended you in any way.

In His love,
Tink

Reading what I wrote... lots of typos, my sympathy if you tried to get anything out of it.

Be content

 

[waterbear]

erm... that is exactly what it is about... to make it clearer -

The New English Version (adopted by the C of E in 1977)

Our Father in Heaven,
Hallowed be your Name,
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done,
On earth as in Heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins
As we forgive those
Who sin against us.
Lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom, the power,
And the glory are yours
Now and forever.
Amen

Forgiveness - You can forgive someone yet not make them your spouse (or, with adultry, divorce the person). Forgiveness applies to generic relationships (everyone someone meets) but it neither assures the creation nor sustaining of a "special" relationship (best friend, significant other, spouse, etc.). Virgin-only dating relates to "special" relationships, therefore forgiveness shouldn't be called on to "bless" the creation of the relationship.

Sin - Something that offends God. Something that offends you personally is wrong (technically, subjectively wrong). How you handle what offends you is not dictated by forgiveness when it applies to "special" relationships, because special relationships are established based on personally chosen discriminators.

 

[Tink]

Reading what I wrote... lots of typos, my sympathy if you tried to get anything out of it.

Be content

It's okay, no one's perfect.

And I am...most of the time.

Thanks, friend.

In His love,
Tink

 

[Carri20]

The social ceremony is quaint, but social approval means very little to me. In the event I wed someone, I would consider that person my spouse from our births to our deaths (exempting of course adultry, in which case the relationship would be undone).

Where do you get these ideas?? You come into this world unmarried and when you die you'll be unmarried in the afterlife. Seems to me you place more value on the concept of earthly marriage than what it's supposed to represent--your relationship with God. And you don't even know if you'll ever get married at all! Are you telling me that you could be married right now but you won't know for sure until you either meet her or die, whichever comes first? Now this is rare. Not many people can honestly say they're not sure if they're married or not.

All that said, I do believe I am damaged for what I've seen and porn is certainly my biggest regret in this life, but my regret doesn't change what happened.

So you'd think you'd be a little more forgiving of other nonvirgins (yes, OTHER nonvirgins; I no longer consider you a virgin after learning of your little porno sex problem) but you're not. It seems there are now two subcategories of nonvirgins--those who have had sex outside of marriage and those who have obsessed over it while filling their brains with all forms of smut. The former is unacceptable, but the latter is ok because you've done it before and you don't think it's as bad or unforgivable as actually performing the act of sex which, by the way, is usually done between people who actually care about each other and aren't just seeking a 5-second high as it seems you were, having never even met any of the airbrushed herpes farms you laid eyes on during your porn addiction days. Meanwhile Jesus teaches that the real sin in both cases is one and the same--lust. But that passage has mysteriously disappeared from the waterbear Bible I see.

As I said, if I'm not dated on that accord, fine, tis her discretion.

Wait, wait, wait...is this a double standard I'm detecting? If by your standards she's better than you, you'll date her...but if you're better than her, you won't? Shouldn't you consider yourself not good enough for a virgin girl who's never looked at porn and thus refuse to date her?

You're getting into sin again; I was discussing something I think is wrong - not something I think is sinful.

Well regardless of what you think is "wrong" and what isn't, your attitude comes across as being VERY sinful:

1. The Bible says love keeps no record of wrongs.
2. God COMMANDS you to love your Christian brothers and siters.
3. Therefore God COMMANDS you to not keep a record of their wrongs.
4. When you reject a potential marriage partner based SOLELY on the wrongs she has committed and been forgiven of, you ARE keeping a record of wrongs, which means you do NOT love her, which means you are DIRECTLY DISOBEYING GOD.
5. I think it's pretty safe to assume that DIRECTLY DISOBEYING GOD IS A SIN.
6. Furthermore, the Bible says that if you say you love God but do not love your brother, you are a HYPOCRITE.
7. To disobey God in this way is PRIDEFUL.
8. Pride is DEFINITELY a sin.

Did it go through, or should I get my bullhorn?

paradigm

What is it with you and that word??

"Blah blah blah paradigm blah blah, blah blah blah blah paradigm blah. Blah blah blah blah blah paradigm blah paradigm blah blah, paradigm blah blah."

Appended: The most general form of "spouse" to me is "potential future spouse". I only believe in a singular spouse (no remarriage) and I'm using the term to describe both the spouse that exists at this point in time, has existed at some point in time, or will exist at some point in time - to me these should be the same person.

If the Bible doesn't teach life-long marriage then I'm sorry but it just doesn't exist. God MADE marriage, remember? He said man and woman leave their parents, come together, and become one flesh and THAT is marriage. Then he gave us government and law to bring legality to it. Marriage is an act, not a state that is with you from conception. Do you think God was wrong? This is real life my friend, and your Princess Charming isn't coming (at least not as she appears in the fairy tale fantasy chick flick that I suspect keeps playing in your mind).

What if your "future potential spouse" is 10 years younger than you? Were you single for the first 10 years of your life and then suddenly became "married" one day while playing on the monkey bars at recess because somewhere in a different town her father's sperm joined her mother's egg? I mean how crazy are you going to get with this??

Oh one more question.. How many future potential kids should you be paying child support for right now since you and your future potential spouse are currently separated?

 

[Carri20]

Pssst.. Just checking in with you guys--especially you waterbear--to make sure we're all still just having fun here. Let me know if I say something that strikes too far below the belt and I'll stop. I'm mostly just curious for reactions when I say stuff, because I want to know more about your point of view and I seem to learn best this way. It really is interesting to me believe it or not.
So anyway, are we all on the same page so to speak?

 

[MrDude]

Don't you get it by now? I don't "tell" myself anything. I don't have to. The Bible tells me plenty.



Revelations 12:9-11 -- And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



See now this doesn't even make sense, and I can't respond to an insult I don't understand.



2 Corinthians 5:17 -- Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What other opinions of yours don't match up with the Bible I wonder?



The first part of that statement is sometimes true, not always, and the last part is even less likely for a true Christian. My personality did not suddenly change on the night I committed fornication. It DID change, however, on the night I accepted Christ's forgiveness and God blotted that sin and all others off of my record. I'd still like to know what magical personality glitch takes place the instant a person has sex outside of marriage.



Your unChristian accusations fail to penetrate my spiritual armor.

First of all, get of your high horse. You've got the biggest high and mighty Holier than thou attitude I have ever seen in my life.

Second, we become a new creature in Christ in the fact that we can now feel remorse and repentfulness for our sins, but we DON'T suddenly become some perfect human being. Good job on misinterpretation.

Third, I never said there was some "instant personality glitch". It appears you don't know too much about the human brain and psychological patterns. Having sex WILL remain in your brain and will effect you in some way or another, even if it's just subconsciously and you don't realize your doing it. It's a fact.

And if by "spiritual armor", you mean "stubborn, hypocritical, Holier than thou attitude", then yeah, you're right.

 

[Fatolia]

None of this is really founded in Scripture in any way shape or form, so how are you able to judge whether either idea is pleasing to God?

Don't use the Bible to prove your points...instead show the points that are already in the Bible!

For example, a pervasive view among Christians is that there is "one" spouse out there for you that God has destined you for. There's no where in the Bible that states this or even suggests it. I've found often that the opposite is true..."It is better to stay as you are." Stick with the facts, people.

 

[Carri20]

First of all, get of your high horse. You've got the biggest high and mighty Holier than thou attitude I have ever seen in my life.

I beg to differ. Waterbear's got the biggest high and mighty holier than thou attitude you've ever seen in your life. Whether or not you can see that is your problem.

Second, we become a new creature in Christ in the fact that we can now feel remorse and repentfulness for our sins, but we DON'T suddenly become some perfect human being. Good job on misinterpretation.

Can you back that with scripture? No you can't, because you're wrong. We become a new creature in Christ because we have been FORGIVEN and whatever sins we committed are FORGOTTEN by God. He gives us a clean slate as far as our sin record is concerned, and he urges us to go forth and live our lives positively without letting the past drag us down. How hard do think it is to do that if everywhere we turn we have corrupt "Christians" snubbing their noses at us and rejecting us based on things God has already forgiven and forgotten? Ehh? ..You who have never walked so much as a meter let alone a mile in my shoes?

It appears you don't know too much about the human brain and psychological patterns. Having sex WILL remain in your brain and will effect you in some way or another, even if it's just subconsciously and you don't realize your doing it. It's a fact.

It appears you don't know much about God Almighty. You don't think he can take a thing like that and turn it into something good? HE'S IN THE BUSINESS. If you need a Bible I'll send you one and you can see for yourself that God is always taking sin scars and healing them better than they were before Satan interfered. In this case God can take a person's experience with sexual sin and use it to make that person more compassionate towards others who are being rejected and "stoned" by society for similar reasons. You may be a virgin, but if you openly reject everyone who isn't, you're worse off by my standards because you can't see past the nose on your face to see someone else's situation.

And if by "spiritual armor", you mean "stubborn, hypocritical, Holier than thou attitude", then yeah, you're right.

Ooo a jab, I'm bleeding. You know aside from being false and ignorant it does have pretty good structure... I don't know, MrDude...I'm starting to think I underestimated you on first impression. Let's see what else you got.

 

[MrDude]

You want some Biblical proof...

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.

-Philippians 3:12-13

Yeah, let that one soak in.

 

[Carri20]

That's right, just plop it up there without adding in any kind of context. Maybe that's because you have no idea what you just posted. Observe The Message version:

Philippians 3:12-13 -- I'm not saying that I have this all together, that I have it made. But I am well on my way, reaching out for Christ, who has so wondrously reached out for me. Friends, don't get me wrong: By no means do I count myself an expert in all of this, but I've got my eye on the goal, where God is beckoning us onward--to Jesus.

If the point you're trying to make is that we are continuously growing in our relationship with God and our knowledge of him, then I agree 100%. I have never denied that. What I asked for is scripture that backs up your ridiculous notion that being forgiven doesn't give us a clean record with God.

Know what? Maybe what we have here is a miscommunication. When you said "perfect human being", I assumed you were referring to a person with a spotless sin record. Is that what you meant or isn't it?