Do you expect an apology from any future non-virgin girlfriend/boyfriend?

[Carri20]

I think we all need to go look at 1 Corinthians 13.

The implication that one MUST ask forgiveness from their future spouse for a sin committed before the future spouse was known, seems to strip away from the 'keeps no record of wrongs' part of the Love chapter... It sounds as if, were the person NOT to ask forgiveness, some would keep that 'over their head' and resent them as a result.

That verse should really bring quite a conviction to the hearts of those who say they would never consider dating a non-virgin. Heh. Should. I seriously wonder about the people they do end up with though. It's pretty clear that they will be "loved" conditionally based upon performances rather than personality and character.

I have a question for the ones who say they refuse to consider dating a non-virgin. What if you pray to God and ask him to pick your spouse for you (which I hope you would) and as a result God brings you a non-virgin? Would you blow him/her off completely and settle for someone less than what God has planned for you, all based on virginity? What if that non-virgin was your absolute best personality match?

Personally I think it's too easy for some of you to lump all non-virgins into a single stereotype. Think about it. The term "non-virgin" could apply to anyone from a born-again child of God to a big city drug dealer. But some of you toss them all into the same trash can regardless.

Guys, let's say you meet a nice Christian girl who lights up a room just by entering it and radiates the love of Jesus Christ in everything she does. She's bright, funny, compassionate.. You just can't help but be drawn to her personality. Maybe you spend some time with her, talk to her, and start to like her. Maybe you start to think she likes you back. Which do you ask first? If she's a virgin, or if she'd like to go out to dinner with you sometime? Maybe you make the mistake of assuming she's a virgin because she's so nice and Christ-like, only to find out she's not after you've already fallen in love with her and are convinced that this is God's will. After all, non-virgins are supposed to just walk around with a big ol' mark on their foreheads so you can tell them apart from the good ones, right? ..Then maybe you start to moan about her being "deceptive" because she showed interest in you without first revealing the most embarrassing and regretful moments of her life's history. How dare she act so Christ-like and not be a virgin!?

^ This is the impression I get from a lot of Christian guys. I thought that of all people Christians would be more forgiving and more able to let go of the past, seeing as how their own pasts have been let go of, but now I don't know what to expect anymore. It's a disappointment really, and it's because of this warped thinking that a lot of people are staying away from the church.

I have one last thing to say to the "virgin-onlies" in this post. Remember the story about the servant whose debt was forgiven by his master, and then that same servant had a fellow servant punished for not paying his debt? I challenge you to think about how that might apply to this kind of a situation.

 

[JPPT1974]

so many of you are missing the main point. the bible compares the marriage of TWO people with christ as the bridegroom and the church as the bride. not one christ and many churches or many christs and one church. if we stray from the church our groom is faithful and just to forgive our straying. we are told however to confess our sins. by this same analogy, one spouse should confess our straying to the other and accept the forgiveness that should be freely given. this said, how many of us have ask christ for forgiveness and received it and still felt somewhat guilty for stumbling. this said i beleive it is necessary for the non virgin, entering into a marriage, to confess and ask forgiveness and that it should be given unconditionaly as christ the groom does.

I have a cousin that is on the verge of divorcing. Because her soon-to-be ex husband is more interested in mountain biking than in her. And acts more like a bachelor than the husband God wants him to be.

 

[waterbear]

That verse should really bring quite a conviction to the hearts of those who say they would never consider dating a non-virgin. Heh. Should. I seriously wonder about the people they do end up with though. It's pretty clear that they will be "loved" conditionally based upon performances rather than personality and character.

If you would divorce someone for adultry, beating you, beating your children, worshipping Satan, etc. the love is indeed conditionally based on performance.

I have a question for the ones who say they refuse to consider dating a non-virgin. What if you pray to God and ask him to pick your spouse for you (which I hope you would) and as a result God brings you a non-virgin? Would you blow him/her off completely and settle for someone less than what God has planned for you, all based on virginity? What if that non-virgin was your absolute best personality match?

I think we pick our own spouses, but assuming the above - I'd either decide to stick with celibacy or hold out. I'm more value-centric than personality-centric... someone with my morals is more important. Personality commonality in and of itself isn't very meaningful to me except as it relates to values. Someone with my values who is not a virgin would make a great friend, but not a spouse.

Personally I think it's too easy for some of you to lump all non-virgins into a single stereotype. Think about it. The term "non-virgin" could apply to anyone from a born-again child of God to a big city drug dealer. But some of you toss them all into the same trash can regardless.

I considered myself an atheist until I was 22. That said, tis true that I don't distinguish a widow from someone who used to work a street-corner as far as being potential mates.

Guys, let's say you meet a nice Christian girl who lights up a room just by entering it and radiates the love of Jesus Christ in everything she does. She's bright, funny, compassionate.. You just can't help but be drawn to her personality. Maybe you spend some time with her, talk to her, and start to like her. Maybe you start to think she likes you back. Which do you ask first? If she's a virgin, or if she'd like to go out to dinner with you sometime? Maybe you make the mistake of assuming she's a virgin because she's so nice and Christ-like, only to find out she's not after you've already fallen in love with her and are convinced that this is God's will. After all, non-virgins are supposed to just walk around with a big ol' mark on their foreheads so you can tell them apart from the good ones, right? ..Then maybe you start to moan about her being "deceptive" because she showed interest in you without first revealing the most embarrassing and regretful moments of her life's history. How dare she act so Christ-like and not be a virgin!?

I assume someone is a non-virgin until I've got strong information - from her - indicating otherwise. It doesn't need to involve me asking any ackward questions, I can simply present my notion of marriage and that's usually enough to get an informative response. I withhold serious attraction until I've concluded she's a virgin as I use the term.

^ This is the impression I get from a lot of Christian guys. I thought that of all people Christians would be more forgiving and more able to let go of the past, seeing as how their own pasts have been let go of, but now I don't know what to expect anymore. It's a disappointment really, and it's because of this warped thinking that a lot of people are staying away from the church.

I have one last thing to say to the "virgin-onlies" in this post. Remember the story about the servant whose debt was forgiven by his master, and then that same servant had a fellow servant punished for not paying his debt? I challenge you to think about how that might apply to this kind of a situation.

The interesting assumption in all this is that someones' really at a loss for not being able to date a virgin-only dater. The virgin-only dater isn't the only potential mate out there - there are many, many more who don't care about this issue that much. Under this paradigm, selecting a single mate also involves punishing everyone else you don't select

 

[Arikereba]

If whoever I choose to marry in the future, if I ever choose to marry, isn't a virgin, then they haven't done anything to me--if anything I'll benefit from their experience. It's between them and God.

You can't expect people to have held themselves up to your standards since before you've even met them.

 

[rebel_conservative]

If whoever I choose to marry in the future, if I ever choose to marry, isn't a virgin, then they haven't done anything to me--if anything I'll benefit from their experience.

raofl

 

[Tink]

:x

In His love,
Tink

 

[Miles]

Personally I think it's too easy for some of you to lump all non-virgins into a single stereotype. Think about it. The term "non-virgin" could apply to anyone from a born-again child of God to a big city drug dealer. But some of you toss them all into the same trash can regardless.

The same can be said for lumping all 'virgins' together. Some may wait because they're looking for someone as intensely interested in sex (among other things) as they are, while others may have purely ethical or religious reasons... and there are many other reasons for waiting. It's clearly wrong to say all virgins are the same, and yet the stereotypes persist.

I wonder if the stereotypes about non-virgins are mostly a reaction to the stereotypes about virgins?

 

[lady_of_god]

I wonder if the stereotypes about non-virgins are mostly a reaction to the stereotypes about virgins?

Probably so...

 

[Carri20]

I think we pick our own spouses, but assuming the above - I'd either decide to stick with celibacy or hold out. I'm more value-centric than personality-centric... someone with my morals is more important. Personality commonality in and of itself isn't very meaningful to me except as it relates to values. Someone with my values who is not a virgin would make a great friend, but not a spouse.

Ahh I see. So if it's God's will for you to marry a non-virgin, you'd rather disobey than comply. That speaks volumes. You do realize that "values" without some backup from God are corrupt, right?

And another thing. Don't even give me that crock line about values. Want to know something about my values? I'm probably more strongly against fornication than you are! And I'm not a virgin! Can your brain handle that one, or do you need a paper bag to breathe into? The obvious fact is it's not about values with you. It's about perfection--something you'll never achieve in a spouse or a marriage. Especially if you think you can marry someone who has the same values as you but isn't attracted to you because of personality conflict. Believe it or not, not every Christian virgin is going to like you let alone want to marry you. And that's not meant to be a jab. The same can be said about me or anybody else. It's just true.

I assume someone is a non-virgin until I've got strong information - from her - indicating otherwise. It doesn't need to involve me asking any ackward questions, I can simply present my notion of marriage and that's usually enough to get an informative response. I withhold serious attraction until I've concluded she's a virgin as I use the term.

Just as I predicted. You seem to think everyone who isn't a virgin walks around with some kind of mark, and if you probe long enough you'll find it.

Let me tell you something. There are a lot of people who have had sexual pasts, then were forgiven, and now truly consider themselves to be virgins again. They will present themselves to you as virgins because they honestly from the bottom of their hearts believe God has made them clean. You would never know the difference, and you're unbelievably naive if you think you'd be able to tell just by the way she talks and behaves. So let's alter the situation a bit. Let's say you're engaged to the same good-natured Christian girl I described earlier and you don't find out she's not really a virgin until after you're married. You've already had sex with her. Do you seek a divorce or what? Is your marriage ruined beyond repair?

NOTE: I'm undecided on the whole "God made me a virgin again" thing, so I'm definitely not trying to criticize that belief with this post. Just going with my default way of thinking, which is that if you've had sex you're not a virgin, period.

 

[Tink]

There are a lot of people who have had sexual pasts, then were forgiven, and now truly consider themselves to be virgins again. They will present themselves to you as virgins because they honestly from the bottom of their hearts believe God has made them clean.

AMEN!

In His love,
Tink

 

[Carri20]

AMEN!

lol... See, waterbear?

Oh and just in case you're tempted to whip out a handy response like "Well God wouldn't let that happen to me," just remember that God doesn't work the way you do. He doesn't brand nonvirgins unworthy of marriage and he certainly doesn't brand them unworthy of you. Maybe the other way around though, with your attitude. I really don't think God would want one of his beloved children to end up trapped in a marriage with a husband who thinks of her as a second-class Chrsitian with poor values.

 

[Carri20]

I think we pick our own spouses,

Biggest decision of your life and you don't seek God's input. How very Christian of you.

 

[Carri20]

Ok, ok. Here's a slight twist. If you're a virgin and you don't think you should marry a nonvirgin, who do you think the nonvirgins should marry? Other nonvirgins?

...And if nonvirgins date/court and marry each other, should one or both of them expect an apology exchance to take place?

 

[waterbear]

Ahh I see. So if it's God's will for you to marry a non-virgin, you'd rather disobey than comply. That speaks volumes. You do realize that "values" without some backup from God are corrupt, right?

I don't think God favors me to be married, and possibly doesn't favor me to remain celibate (not sure about that). In this hypothetical situation, my interpretation would be "if you are to marry, this is the person you should marry". I wouldn't consider it disobediance at all to decide instead to remain celibate, since that position is no less favored.

And another thing. Don't even give me that crock line about values. Want to know something about my values? I'm probably more strongly against fornication than you are! And I'm not a virgin! Can your brain handle that one, or do you need a paper bag to breathe into? The obvious fact is it's not about values with you. It's about perfection--something you'll never achieve in a spouse or a marriage. Especially if you think you can marry someone who has the same values as you but isn't attracted to you because of personality conflict. Believe it or not, not every Christian virgin is going to like you let alone want to marry you. And that's not meant to be a jab. The same can be said about me or anybody else. It's just true.

I'm pretty sure I said that someone with great values but wasn't a virgin would make a good friend, not spouse which I think implies that a non-virgin can have decent values. Virgins definately have different personalities and different value sets. On my part, I won't mind personality conflicts much, but it's definately still a possiblity on her part. The one woman I had an interest in dating didn't work out, in part, because personality compatiblity was more important to her than me - which is fine.

Just as I predicted. You seem to think everyone who isn't a virgin walks around with some kind of mark, and if you probe long enough you'll find it.

Let me tell you something. There are a lot of people who have had sexual pasts, then were forgiven, and now truly consider themselves to be virgins again. They will present themselves to you as virgins because they honestly from the bottom of their hearts believe God has made them clean. You would never know the difference, and you're unbelievably naive if you think you'd be able to tell just by the way she talks and behaves. So let's alter the situation a bit. Let's say you're engaged to the same good-natured Christian girl I described earlier and you don't find out she's not really a virgin until after you're married. You've already had sex with her. Do you seek a divorce or what? Is your marriage ruined beyond repair?

NOTE: I'm undecided on the whole "God made me a virgin again" thing, so I'm definitely not trying to criticize that belief with this post. Just going with my default way of thinking, which is that if you've had sex you're not a virgin, period.

I get the information indirectly first, as a way of broaching the conversation, then get into the details. The details are sufficiently restrictive to catch born-agains - she'd need to outright lie to be what I consider to be a non-virgin and me considering marriage (and if she is, well that's beyond my control). With topics like this, most of the time virgins and non-virgins will respond differently, you disagree with that?

I'd probably divorce someone for fornication - possibly not if there were children. In the event that I marry, my spouse will be warned ahead of time.

Matt. 19:9 "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

From what I've heard, fornication as used in the King James version was originally "sexual immorality" which, as used in the Old Testament, includes fornication as the term is known today.

 

[waterbear]

lol... See, waterbear?

Oh and just in case you're tempted to whip out a handy response like "Well God wouldn't let that happen to me," just remember that God doesn't work the way you do. He doesn't brand nonvirgins unworthy of marriage and he certainly doesn't brand them unworthy of you. Maybe the other way around though, with your attitude. I really don't think God would want one of his beloved children to end up trapped in a marriage with a husband who thinks of her as a second-class Chrsitian with poor values.

Quite possible. As I said before, if God identifies someone for me to marry, if I'm so inclined to marry, then I shall decide I'm not inclined to marry.

 

[waterbear]

Biggest decision of your life and you don't seek God's input. How very Christian of you.

I seek God's input so that I may have control over my mind such that I may make the decisions I wish to be judged on. I view my actions as my responsiblity, thus they should come from my choices. May my choices be governed by the same values as He has in His perfection.

 

[MrDude]

So...waterbear...old buddy, old pal...has anyone ever told you you're completely out of your mind?







Just curious

 

[waterbear]

Ok, ok. Here's a slight twist. If you're a virgin and you don't think you should marry a nonvirgin, who do you think the nonvirgins should marry? Other nonvirgins?

...And if nonvirgins date/court and marry each other, should one or both of them expect an apology exchance to take place?

Whether or not a virgin-only dating policy for self necessarily generalizes to all virgins is something I disagree with. People have different priorities, mine emphasize virginity (probably because I'm a very private person), other virgins may find virginity significantly less important in a spouse. These virgins should act as they see fit, even if that means them marrying non-virgins. Thus, I wouldn't place any restrictions on virgin and non-virgin intermarriage, although I personally would not engage in this.

If their partner considers values virginity, then the non-virgin should apologize for his/her sake, regardless of whether the partner is virgin or non-virgin. The their partner doesn't really care about virginity, then I see no reason why the non-virgin should apologize, regardless of whether the parter is virgin or non-virgin.

 

[waterbear]

So...waterbear...old buddy, old pal...has anyone ever told you you're completely out of your mind?







Just curious

My views are definately different than most - I try not to pay attention to what everyone else is doing when I set my personal policies. I think my mind-body, happiness/pleasure separation is the heart of the differences though - I make a concious effort to not seek pleasure.

 

[Carri20]

I don't think God favors me to be married, and possibly doesn't favor me to remain celibate (not sure about that). In this hypothetical situation, my interpretation would be "if you are to marry, this is the person you should marry". I wouldn't consider it disobediance at all to decide instead to remain celibate, since that position is no less favored.

Ok, disobedience perhaps not. But I do think you would be missing out on a great thing because of bigotry, which would still be a shame.

Virgins definately have different personalities and different value sets.

Care to expand on that? Cause you know, I could dish out quite a bit of dough for an in-depth personality report but heck if I can get one free from the world famous Dr. Waterbear I'll gladly leap at the chance. Why don't you tell me all about my filthy flea-bitten sin-ridden personality and your flawless superior value set?

If you must know, I was just as stubborn and cocky before I had sex as I was after. What you're seeing now is an improvement, and it only began after salvation. Salvation is the only thing that changes personalities. Unless of course you count in the mentally challenged.

You know, it's like someone said in the philosophy forum--You can't make an argument against dating non-virgins without saying in one form or another, "I'm better than them."

With topics like this, most of the time virgins and non-virgins will respond differently, you disagree with that?

Again I'll remind you that a lot of people consider themselves virgins because they have been forgiven their past mistakes. You can ask "have you ever had sex?" and she might say "no" because since she became a new creature in Christ, she hasn't. To get the response you're after you would have to ask "before you were saved, did any man's body enter the one you have now?" ...And just the mere fact that you would have to specify "before you were saved" should indicate to you how significant the answer would be to God.