Do you believe in Original Sin?

[Frogster]

But did God want Adam to disobey-to sin-when He commanded him not to? We know that, after the Fall, man was incapable of refraining from sin, at least now that he was separated from God, and the Law made that even more clear. But that first sin, was that inevitable? Most theologians say no, and that's why Adam was more particularly blameworthy. And all specific, personal sins, other than the original one that opened the door to the rest that followed, were pretty much inevitable. In any case, the important aspect for me in all this is that God had an overall plan to bring greater good out of the evil that resulted from the Fall, which is what bling is getting at from a somewhat different perspective IMO. While God permitted it, He was not the cause of the sin.

You know, bro, I liked your post.

The only thing is, about the first sin not being inevitable..

Well, it had to be inevitable, because Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and we were predestined before the world, and that was before the sin, so to me it it had to be inevitable, because the redemption and adoption were already planned, before the first sin. So God knew it was coming by inevitability.

In other words, for Jesus to have been slain before the sin of Adam he had to have known it was coming, or he could have been slain for no reason. If Adam did not sin, no sacrifice would be needed.

 

[Frogster]

Then we could say that God put the tree there too, and made Adam with the ability to sin.

 

[fhansen]

You know, bro, I liked your post.

The only thing is, about the first sin not being inevitable..

Well, it had to be inevitable, because Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and we were predestined before the world, and that was before the sin, so to me it it had to be inevitable, because the redemption and adoption were already planned, before the first sin. So God knew it was coming by inevitability.

In other words, for Jesus to have been slain before the sin of Adam he had to have known it was coming, or he could have been slain for no reason. If Adam did not sin, no sacrifice would be needed.

God knew the sin would occur before He created-and so had His plan of salvation in place from the beginning. But foreknowing evil would occur and causing that evil to occur are two different things. We still must maintain man's freedom and responsibility in his own sin-and God's opposition to evil. Otherwise God's no better than satan.

 

[fhansen]

Then we could say that God put the tree there too, and made Adam with the ability to sin.

The tree just symbolizes man's choices-to obey or to disobey by eating of its fruit. It's the recognition that man has an obligation to acknowledge and obey his Creator.

 

[bling]

So God made Adam-and us -unable to obey His commands?

There are lots of things we are commanded to do that we cannot do without the power that is available from having the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Could God have even commanded Adam and Eve to: “Love me with all their heart, soul, mind and energy” and as a result of that command they would Loved Him that way? If Adam and Eve had “loved” God out of obedience to a command to love is that the same as Godly type Love for God?

Can parents command their children to love them and have a wonderful type love from giving that command?

Yes, Adam and Eve were to Love God with Godly type Love, but God was going to have to help them obtain that Love.

 

[bling]

red above, to go to jail, one has to know what he was condemned for, or God would be unjust. I can't go to jail, without a charge against me.

The “condemnation” comes from the inability of humans to fulfill their earthly objective in a Garden type scenario. It is not “unjust” for God to place us in a situation where we can succeed (accept His Love).

I have taught Bible in prison and have been asked: “Why does God keep me in prison, when I have repented or some might said ‘falsely accused’ (they were just with a group when a guy pulled a gun and shot a person [they did not know anyone had a gun] but were convicted of murder).” My answer has been: “You as a Christian are not here for the bad you did, but for the good you can do.”

We are all here in this messed up world for a short time to cease the opportunities before us. What opportunities would you have in the Garden Scenario to truly: show, experience, teach, extend to others and grow Godly type love through use? Unfortunately, I personally need lots of opportunities (needy people around me) to leave the comforts of my chair to share God’s Love.

 

[St_Worm2]

Adam and Eve were to Love God with Godly type Love, but God was going to have to help them obtain that Love.

Are you saying that you believe that Adam's sin and the resulting Fall was a 'good' thing, perhaps even a 'necessary' thing ..

I am probably missing what you are saying, but how did God "help Adam/Eve obtain that love"?

Thanks!

--David

 

[fhansen]

There are lots of things we are commanded to do that we cannot do without the power that is available from having the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Could God have even commanded Adam and Eve to: “Love me with all their heart, soul, mind and energy” and as a result of that command they would Loved Him that way? If Adam and Eve had “loved” God out of obedience to a command to love is that the same as Godly type Love for God?

Can parents command their children to love them and have a wonderful type love from giving that command?

Yes, Adam and Eve were to Love God with Godly type Love, but God was going to have to help them obtain that Love.

I agree with this-Adam & Eve hadn't yet fallen in love with God, to put it one way, even though we would learn later that love, itself, defines man's justice and is the authentic motivation for his obedience. Yes, Adam had to learn the hard way. He had to learn of his need for God, so that he would embrace rather than spurn the only One who could make him just. Adam had to become a Prodigal. But that doesn't mean that God wanted him to sin-only that, if that's what it took, it was still worth it to create Adam and allow the sin that occurred, God knowing the beginning from the end.

 

[Frogster]

God knew the sin would occur before He created-and so had His plan of salvation in place from the beginning. But foreknowing evil would occur and causing that evil to occur are two different things. We still must maintain man's freedom and responsibility in his own sin-and God's opposition to evil. Otherwise God's no better than satan.

Well, I never said God caused it.

 

[Frogster]

The tree just symbolizes man's choices-to obey or to disobey by eating of its fruit. It's the recognition that man has an obligation to acknowledge and obey his Creator.

Hmmm... it was not not really symbolic, because the death that came to mankind was not symbolic. Death is real.

 

[Frogster]

The “condemnation” comes from the inability of humans to fulfill their earthly objective in a Garden type scenario. It is not “unjust” for God to place us in a situation where we can succeed (accept His Love).

I have taught Bible in prison and have been asked: “Why does God keep me in prison, when I have repented or some might said ‘falsely accused’ (they were just with a group when a guy pulled a gun and shot a person [they did not know anyone had a gun] but were convicted of murder).” My answer has been: “You as a Christian are not here for the bad you did, but for the good you can do.”

We are all here in this messed up world for a short time to cease the opportunities before us. What opportunities would you have in the Garden Scenario to truly: show, experience, teach, extend to others and grow Godly type love through use? Unfortunately, I personally need lots of opportunities (needy people around me) to leave the comforts of my chair to share God’s Love.

In other words, if one does the crime, he has to do the time. To do the time, that being condemnation, the prisoner had to have had the crime (sin), to have the prison term.

 

[fhansen]

Hmmm... it was not not really symbolic, because the death that came to mankind was not symbolic. Death is real.

The death is real, the sin was real, the disobedience was real. The act, of the actual first parents of all humankind literally disobeying God is the central point of the story. The idea of a tree and fruit was figurative in the opinion of many.

 

[fhansen]

Well, I never said God caused it.

OK!

 

[Frogster]

The death is real, the sin was real, the disobedience was real. The act, of the actual first parents of all humankind literally disobeying God is the central point of the story. The idea of a tree and fruit was figurative in the opinion of many.

Hmmm if it were figurative, why make it where no one else could get at the 'figurative" tree of life? Why guard something not real? These verses seem pretty realistic.



3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[fhansen]

Hmmm if it were figurative, why make it where no one else could get at the 'figurative" tree of life? Why guard something not real? These verses seem pretty realistic.



3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

It works either way. The main point, again, is that by an act, of the will, whatever it was, A & E disobeyed God, disobedience being the crucial part. And, by that same act, they could no longer pursue what would've been the best course of action, eating from the Tree of Life, drawing even nearer to God presumably, where eternal life would've been guaranteed then- rather than effectively spurning Him, where a detour into exile and death was the result. But I don't care so much either way; the message still comes through.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The stories in Genesis can be read in all sorts of ways because the stories are written in poetic form and some folk prefer to see them describing themes in God's dealing with mankind rather than as specific events in Earthly history. Others prefer to read them as stories taken from history and gathered into a compendium of significant events in the history of God's dealings with mankind. And some like to read Genesis as if it were much the same as a history book.

Maybe it is best to read it at face value and learn the lessons in it without worrying too much about when it happened and how it happened.

 

[Rick Otto]

God knew the sin would occur before He created-and so had His plan of salvation in place from the beginning. But foreknowing evil would occur and causing that evil to occur are two different things. We still must maintain man's freedom and responsibility in his own sin-and God's opposition to evil. Otherwise God's no better than satan.

I would wager you redefine the word "evil" to mean "calamity" in Isaiha 45:7.
Causing the incisions necessary for surgery complicates your simplicity.
God will cause a lesser evil to occur to cause a greater good to result.
He put a lying spirit in the mouth of a prophet in 1 Kings 22:23:
[23] Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee

 

[Rick Otto]

Hmmm if it were figurative, why make it where no one else could get at the 'figurative" tree of life? Why guard something not real? These verses seem pretty realistic.



3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Figurative doesn't mean less real. It is simply a non-literal way of describing.

 

[Gunny]

Yes.

 

[bling]

Are you saying that you believe that Adam's sin and the resulting Fall was a 'good' thing, perhaps even a 'necessary' thing ..

I am probably missing what you are saying, but how did God "help Adam/Eve obtain that love"?

Thanks!

--David

Where does the Bible call it a “fall”?

God did not want or need us to sin, but we needed to sin in order to need forgiveness.

What do you see as the objective?