Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[Kaitlin08]

Paul said we obey the commandments because of love not righteousness. If the law of thou shall not kill, steal or bear false witness is the yoke to us, then Love is the yoke.

Paul didn't say anything about following the commandments of Moses because of love. The law of Moses was a heavy yoke, but Jesus' yoke was light. Love was an alternative to the law of Moses; it was its opposite. The Pharisees made this clear when they pushed the law to its natural conclusion.

 

[11822]

Paul didn't say anything about following the commandments of Moses because of love. The law of Moses was a heavy yoke, but Jesus' yoke was light. Love was an alternative to the law of Moses; it was its opposite. The Pharisees made this clear when they pushed the law to its natural conclusion.

Yes he does.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[ghendricks63]

613?

We got 1762.

Code of Canon Law

Wow I really feel bad for ya. I only have 2.

 

[Kaitlin08]

Yes he does.

Underlining and bolding words doesn't explain anything to me.

Romans 7:6 NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7:6&version=NIVBut now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The contrast between the law and the Spirit is everywhere in Romans; the law is a past stage, or an early stage in the life of every person, before he reaches maturity. This is why Paul calls it a tutor in Galatians. If we go back to the law, we go back to Judaism; that's the same as denying the cross.

 

[11822]

The pharisees just misunderstood the law. David however understood it quite well. Note the last scripture that i post below.


Psalm 51 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Ps 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Ps 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Ps 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Ps 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Ps 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Ps 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Ps 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Ps 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Ps 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Ps 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
Ps 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Ps 51:18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
Ps 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.





Ps 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night

Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple

Ps 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide

 

[11822]

Underlining and bolding words doesn't explain anything to me.

Romans 7:6 NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7:6&version=NIVBut now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The contrast between the law and the Spirit is everywhere in Romans; the law is a past stage, or an early stage in the life of every person, before he reaches maturity. This is why Paul calls it a tutor in Galatians. If we go back to the law, we go back to Judaism; that's the same as denying the cross.

Paul is saying that we obey the law of "thou shall not murder" because of love, not righteousness. Notice the laws that he lists? They are from the 10 Cs. Notice how he says we obey them because of love. He doesn't throw them out, He justifies them under Jesus law of love.



Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by tadoflamb
613?

We got 1762.

Code of Canon Law

Wow I really feel bad for ya. I only have 2.

 

[Kaitlin08]

Paul is saying that we obey the law of "thou shall not murder" because of love, not righteousness. Notice the laws that he lists? They are from the 10 Cs. Notice how he says we obey them because of love. He doesn't throw them out, He justifies them under Jesus law of love.

It has nothing to do with righteousness. This is the Reformation view of Judaism, which we know is false; Judaism was not a religion of works-righteousness. Paul said that the law was a failure without Christ, period; his focus was only on its failure.

 

[11822]

The point here is this: Jesus didn't say be lawless, he said be humble and loving because this fulfills the Law. When Jesus fulfilled the law He followed the law how its supposed to be followed, he didn't throw it out and replace it, he fulfilled it meaning he didn't murder because he loved, He didn't steal because He loved, not to become righteous but for love because no man can be justified by law. But without it we cannot love either. God gave us the law so we will love one another. Thats fulfilling of the law. Fulfilling the law means obeying it for love not righteousness.

Notice below Paul is saying the same thing? Love fulfills the law, it doesn't throw it out.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[visionary]

Underlining and bolding words doesn't explain anything to me.

Romans 7:6 NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7:6&version=NIVBut now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The contrast between the law and the Spirit is everywhere in Romans; the law is a past stage, or an early stage in the life of every person, before he reaches maturity. This is why Paul calls it a tutor in Galatians. If we go back to the law, we go back to Judaism; that's the same as denying the cross.

Where do you get Judaism is denying the cross.. since so many of the first believers were believing in Yeshua's cross and still zealous for the Law.. unless they were obviously zealous because of the new light shed upon it.. burden [pharisee ridden rulings] free and consistent with the way Yeshua and Paul taught us how to see it.. as a spiritual [read adultery and see lust included] law.

 

[11822]

If we say that we love but disobey thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, or any other commandment that is briefly comprehended in this saying: namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself., then we are liars because love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[Kaitlin08]

I repeat: Judaism was not a religion of works-righteousness. The places in Romans that talk about boasting have to do with election, not law. Paul's wasn't trying to encourage immorality, which is what you mean by lawlessness; that you think this is what lawlessness is shows you still need a law to remain moral. You don't understand Paul's definitions or the actual working out of his thought. Modern readings of Paul are much more attentive to these things than the older readings. This must be because the older readings expressly ignored all the non-Old Testament books about Judaism.

 

[Kaitlin08]

Where do you get Judaism is denying the cross.. since so many of the first believers were believing in Yeshua's cross and still zealous for the Law.. unless they were obviously zealous because of the new light shed upon it.. burden [pharisee ridden rulings] free and consistent with the way Yeshua and Paul taught us how to see it.. as a spiritual [read adultery and see lust included] law.

The law of Moses says that everyone who dies on a tree is cursed of God; the cross is an offense in Judaism. Only Christians saw the cross differently. It's true that many of the first believers were Jewish; they were Jewish in ethnicity. They were Christians religiously.

 

[11822]

Love fulfills the law meaning it obeys it.

 

[11822]

I repeat: Judaism was not a religion of works-righteousness. The places in Romans that talk about boasting have to do with election, not law. Paul's wasn't trying to encourage immorality, which is what you mean by lawlessness; that you think this is what lawlessness is shows you still need a law to remain moral. You don't understand Paul's definitions or the actual working out of his thought. Modern readings of Paul are much more attentive to these things than the older readings. This must be because the older readings expressly ignored all the non-Old Testament books about Judaism.

Not all Jews went to Hell. Lats not assume we're better than them.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not all Jews went to Hell. Lats not assume we're better than them.

Both Jesus and Paul railed against the Judean rulers and what I find interesting is that Paul never used that word "gehenna" in his epistles

http://www.christianforums.com/t7464995/
Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?

Matthew 23:2 saying "upon the seat of Moses are seated the Scribes and the Pharisees
Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
[Ezekiel 39:12]

Ezekiel 39:12 And house of Israel bury them so that to purify/cleanse the land seven months.
And all of people of the land bury them.

 

[freeChris44]

Awesome post/thread. I am going to have to print this list out at some point.

For the record, I am under grace now. I am no longer under the law, subject to its rules, neither do I want to be put back under the law.

 

[Kaitlin08]

Not all Jews went to Hell. Lats not assume we're better than them.

That's your assumption. I didn't say anything about hell.

 

[ghendricks63]

The pharisees just misunderstood the law. David however understood it quite well. Note the last scripture that i post below.


Psalm 51 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Ps 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Ps 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Ps 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Ps 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Ps 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Ps 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Ps 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Ps 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Ps 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Ps 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
Ps 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Ps 51:18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
Ps 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.





Ps 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night

Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple

Ps 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide

I shouldn't have to point this out but I will.

Since David was Old Covenant he was literally under and held to the law, of course he embraced and loved it. He saw the law as his connection to God. Today under the New Covenant not only has Christ fullfilled and completed the law...the replacement is beautiful and the indwelling Spirit is our connection to God as well as our helper in obeying the 2 commands we have left.

 

[Kaitlin08]

I shouldn't have to point this out but I will.

Since David was Old Covenant he was literally under and held to the law, of course he embraced and loved it. He saw the law as his connection to God. Today under the New Covenant not only has Christ fullfilled and completed the law...the replacement is beautiful and the indwelling Spirit is our connection to God as well as our helper in obeying the 2 commands we have left.

Yes, it would be hard for someone under the law to see past it.