Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[from scratch]

The Torah ( תוֹרה ), which means "Instructions", and not “law”, consists of:
commandments ( mitz-voh-tav מִצְו[bless and do not curse]ֹתָו ),
statutes ( chu-keem חֻקִּים ),
and judgments ( mish-pah-teem מִּשְׁפָּטִים )

These Instructions have been given by our Creator Redeemer to teach us HOW to walk with Him in righteousness and HOW to love Him (Deut 6:4-9) and how to love our neighbor (Lev 19:18).

In Biblical Hebrew, we use the alphabet as numbers, to count, since there are no separate characters as we have in English, like “1”, “2”, “3”, etc.

So each of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet has a numerical value.

Thus, when we look at a word in Hebrew, and assign the numerical value for the letters in that word, we are calculating what is called the Gematria ( numerical value ) of that word.This is NOT to be confused with numerology, which is the perversion of what YHWH יְהוָה ELohim אֱלֹהִים has designed in the Creation of His Hebrew alphabet.

Now let’s consider the Hebrew word “Torah” ( תוֹרה ) itself.
It consists of the four letters:
Tav ( ת ) Value = 400
Vav (w) ( וֹ ) Value = 6
Raish ( ר ) Value = 200
Hey ( ה ) Value = 5

So the Gematria ( numerical value ) of the word “Torah” ( תוֹרה ) is: 400 + 6 + 200 + 5 = 611.
Are we missing something? We think so.

When we put the letter Bet ( בּ ) [ value = 2 ] in front of “Torah” ( תוֹרה ), we make the phrase: “IN the Torah” ( Ba-Torah בּתוֹרה ) The Gematria ( numerical value ) is now: 611 + 2 = 613

So “IN the Torah” ( Ba-Torah בּתוֹרה ) we habe the Value = 613
And IN the Torah, there happens to be 613 commandments.

Interesting.

 

[yedida]

The Torah ( תוֹרה ), which means "Instructions", and not “law”, consists of:
commandments ( mitz-voh-tav מִצְו[bless and do not curse]ֹתָו ),
statutes ( chu-keem חֻקִּים ),
and judgments ( mish-pah-teem מִּשְׁפָּטִים )

These Instructions have been given by our Creator Redeemer to teach us HOW to walk with Him in righteousness and HOW to love Him (Deut 6:4-9) and how to love our neighbor (Lev 19:18).

In Biblical Hebrew, we use the alphabet as numbers, to count, since there are no separate characters as we have in English, like “1”, “2”, “3”, etc.

So each of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet has a numerical value.

Thus, when we look at a word in Hebrew, and assign the numerical value for the letters in that word, we are calculating what is called the Gematria ( numerical value ) of that word.This is NOT to be confused with numerology, which is the perversion of what YHWH יְהוָה ELohim אֱלֹהִים has designed in the Creation of His Hebrew alphabet.

Now let’s consider the Hebrew word “Torah” ( תוֹרה ) itself.
It consists of the four letters:
Tav ( ת ) Value = 400
Vav (w) ( וֹ ) Value = 6
Raish ( ר ) Value = 200
Hey ( ה ) Value = 5

So the Gematria ( numerical value ) of the word “Torah” ( תוֹרה ) is: 400 + 6 + 200 + 5 = 611.
Are we missing something? We think so.

When we put the letter Bet ( בּ ) [ value = 2 ] in front of “Torah” ( תוֹרה ), we make the phrase: “IN the Torah” ( Ba-Torah בּתוֹרה ) The Gematria ( numerical value ) is now: 611 + 2 = 613

So “IN the Torah” ( Ba-Torah בּתוֹרה ) we habe the Value = 613
And IN the Torah, there happens to be 613 commandments.

May I add a bit to this?
Hebrew is read from right to left. The first word in Genesis 1:1 begins with the letter Bet which is typified by a house or temple. From out of the Bet (or House/Temple) proceeds to its left are all the words of the Lord. So, you see, that Bet isn't just thrown in there to get the number up to 613, it had to be there.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Haha friend,
you have been trying this tactic for awhile
if someone doesn't respond how you want go abotu it in a different way

no tactic, he mentioned romans 13 and 14 and i wanted to see what he had to say about it, that's all.

what's your deal?

 

[11822]

 

[SummaScriptura]

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Again I ask, is there anyone who defends the 10 Commandments for today who will tell me which of the other 603 commandments are still binding on the Church?

Further, if any are indeed binding it seems to me we need to know which are binding and why they are binding while others are now loosed.

Also, if any are indeed now loosed it seems to me we need to know which are now loosed and why they are now loosed while others remain binding.

Avoiding to answer this most important question seems to me to undermine the very thesis that the 10 Commandments are not loosed and are still bound up upon the yoke of the disciple of the Lord.

As I posted before, I affirm that now they are all loosed, all 613. What is now binding is the Law of Christ, and anything taught by the incarnate Word.

"Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray. And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah"— not knowing what he said. As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!' And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen" (Luke 9:28-36 ESV)

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Check out this list:

Descriptions of the Mosaic Law in the New Testament[/c]

 

[Lulav]

Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

I put this one together using reftagger. I copied it from Wiki but added the function of reftagger. Hover your mouse over each verse citation to read it without clicking it. Very educational and should be wonderful for those who wish to wallow in the Law...

613 Laws of the Old Testament

In answer to the question, no, they were not given to you.

But I wonder since this is obviously not a post to encourage obedience, which of these that you made a page on, lets say of the first section, is abhorrent to you?

1. To know there is a God ~ Exodus 20:02
2. Not to entertain thoughts of other gods besides Him ~ Exodus 20:03
3. To know that He is one ~ Deuteronomy 6:04
4. To love Him ~ Deuteronomy 6:05
5. To fear Him ~ Deuteronomy 10:20
6. To sanctify His Name ~ Leviticus 22:32
7. Not to profane His Name ~ Leviticus 22:32
8. Not to destroy objects associated with His Name ~ Deuteronomy 12:04
9. To listen to the prophet speaking in His Name ~ Deuteronomy 18:15
10. Not to test the prophet unduly ~ Deuteronomy 6:16

 

[Lysimachus]

In Mark 12:28-31, Jesus himself was asked which commandment was the most important. Jesus' reply did not even include any of The Ten Commandments. Instead, he told them that there were two other commandments which were to be recognized as most important. 'You will love the Lord your God' (Deuteronomy 6:4) and 'You will love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18b).

Oh, but Jesus did include the Ten Commandments. The Pharisaical question was a trick question. By Christ's answer, he laid it on them good that all of God's commandments are the greatest. You see, To love God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself is the summation of the Ten Commandments, as the first four on Table 1 have to do with our love to God, and the last six on Table 2 have to do with our love to our fellowmen.

Some may argue that performing commandments is not love. While this is true, love only shows and is revealed by carrying out these commandments. And while the Ten Commandments are not all we are to keep, the are they foundation for which set the laws of love into gear--from there, all the other principles of love can be guided on a set course that is well-pleasing in his site--and these greater laws of Christ do not "negate" the Ten Commandments, or "erase them", rather, they "magnify" them to a higher spiritual level---all the other laws explain the Ten Commandments like never before, and our Protestant Fathers AGREED!

 

[Yab Yum]

To love God and neighbor is the summation of the spirit behind the 10Cs.

 

[Lysimachus]

Avoiding to answer this most important question seems to me to undermine the very thesis that the 10 Commandments are not loosed and are still bound up upon the yoke of the disciple of the Lord.

That is interesting.

It is a yoke to refrain from killing?

It is a yoke to refrain from committing adultery?

It is a yoke to refrain from stealing?

It is a yoke to honour your parents?

It is a yoke to have no other gods before Him?

It is a yoke to not worship idols or make graven images?

It is a yoke to not take God's name in vain?

It is a yoke to not covet what is not yours?

it is a yoke to not bear false witness?

It is a yoke to rest on the Sabbath?

Very very interesting philosophy.

SummaScriptura, we may not have all the answers. We may not know exactly how many Old Testament laws carry over into the New Covenant and still apply. Paul, however, entreats us to study them, and he very specifically states that ALL (yes, ALL--including the Old Testament) is profitable for reproof, instruction, and doctrine. These laws should be continuously studied so that we might find out what applies, and HOW they apply to our cultural surroundings and circumstances.

We do know some basics, however: That all the ceremonial rituals pertaining to the sanctuary have ceased at the cross, as He is the body.

The fact that Paul and Jesus profusely quote from the Ten Commandments is testament in itself that nowhere do we have the license to abolish these laws. To do so would create complete disorder on our planet.

 

[11822]

Paul didn't think they were a yoke. He said they were love. Is Love a yoke?

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[tadoflamb]

613?

We got 1762.

Code of Canon Law

 

[Kaitlin08]

Paul didn't think they were a yoke. He said they were love. Is Love a yoke?

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The law can never fulfill itself; this is what Paul explained at length in Romans. It gave death and it was a crushing weight. Jesus had to fulfill it to fix this; he let the law do what it was supposed to, but never could.

 

[from scratch]

Oh, but Jesus did include the Ten Commandments. The Pharisaical question was a trick question. By Christ's answer, he laid it on them good that all of God's commandments are the greatest. You see, To love God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself is the summation of the Ten Commandments, as the first four on Table 1 have to do with our love to God, and the last six on Table 2 have to do with our love to our fellowmen.

Some may argue that performing commandments is not love. While this is true, love only shows and is revealed by carrying out these commandments. And while the Ten Commandments are not all we are to keep, the are they foundation for which set the laws of love into gear--from there, all the other principles of love can be guided on a set course that is well-pleasing in his site--and these greater laws of Christ do not "negate" the Ten Commandments, or "erase them", rather, they "magnify" them to a higher spiritual level---all the other laws explain the Ten Commandments like never before, and our Protestant Fathers AGREED!

Congratulations on the faith icon change. I heartly appreciate it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

613?

We got 1762.

Code of Canon Law

Whoa! That should make Judaism envious ehehe

 

[11822]

The law can never fulfill itself; this is what Paul explained at length in Romans. It gave death and it was a crushing weight. Jesus had to fulfill it to fix this; he let the law do what it was supposed to, but never could.

Some of the law perhaps but not all of it. To some people fornication is a crushing weight but we're not allowed to fornicate under the banner of Grace. We are not allowed to murder,steal,commit adultery, lie, bear false witness or any other unclean work of the flesh. So we as Christians do have laws to follow and we're not lawless sinners under a banner of grace. We're redeemed sinners and we're instructed to live a clean and Holy life style void of works of the flesh but full of the Holy Spirit. We are not supposed to live like the world lives, we are not supposed to be murderers, adulterers, fornicators, blasphemers, homosexuals, covetous, bearers of false witness and so on.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No we don't. I'm not keeping all 613 mitzvot. I have no Jewish blood in me anyway.

Gentiles are required to keep the 7 laws of Noah. That's it. And most do by default anyway.

Interesting. I hadn't never heard of that until I came to CF

http://www.christianforums.com/t1155483-2/#post10649667
what is Noahide Laws? and where did they come from?

The encyclopedia of Judaism defines the Noahide Laws as follows:

(1) Civil justice [the duty to establish a legal system];
(2) Prohibition of blasphemy [which includes the bearing of false witness]
(3) The abandonment of idolatry;
(4) The prohibition of incest [including murder and adultery]
(5) The prohibition of murder;
(6) Also that of theft;
(7) The law against eating flesh [a limb] cut from a living animal [i.e.., cruelty in any shape or form] http://www.christianforums.com/t1155483/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide

Noahidism is a monotheistic Jewish ideology based on the Seven Laws of Noah. According to Jewish law, non-Jews are not obligated to convert to Judaism, but they are required to observe the Seven Laws of Noah. Those who subscribe to the observance of such laws and their supporting organizations are referred to as Bene Noach (B'nei Noah) (Hebrew: בני נח&#8206, Children of Noah, Noahides or Noahites.

 

[Kaitlin08]

Some of the law perhaps but not all of it. To some people fornication is a crushing weight but we're not allowed to fornicate under the banner of Grace. We are not allowed to murder,steal,commit adultery, lie, bear false witness or any other unclean work of the flesh. So we as Christians do have laws to follow and we're not lawless sinners under a banner of grace. We're redeemed sinners and we're instructed to live a clean and Holy life style void of works of the flesh but full of the Holy Spirit. We are not supposed to live like the world lives, we are not supposed to be murderers, adulterers, fornicators, blasphemers, homosexuals, covetous, bearers of false witness and so on.

I was responding to your post where you said the law wasn't a yoke; in Paul's thought the law was certainly a yoke.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I was responding to your post where you said the law wasn't a yoke; in Paul's thought the law was certainly a yoke.

What goes around comes around

Acts 15:10 Now then why are ye trying the God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the Disciples, which neither the fathers of us neither we are able to bear?
[Deut 28:48/Reve 6:5]

Deuteronomy 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which YHWH shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
[Acts 15:10/Reve 6:5]

YouTube - Take My Yoke Upon You.dv

 

[11822]

.

 

[11822]

I was responding to your post where you said the law wasn't a yoke; in Paul's thought the law was certainly a yoke.

Paul said we obey the commandments because of love not righteousness. If the law of thou shall not kill, steal or bear false witness is the yoke to us, then Love is the yoke.


Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.