Do "saved" people have free will?

[QuantaCura]

Simple question

 

[Jipsah]

If we didn't have free will we wouldn't sin.

 

[peach16_4u]

If saved people didn't have free will then they wouldn't sin. It's not that we lose our free will, the focus of our will changes and we chose to give it up to God... yet he still gives us the choice to take it back and that when we sin.

 

[QuantaCura]

Yes, sin is the obvious reasoning, but let's look at the other side of the story:

Can a saved person choose not to produce good fruit?

On the flipside, can an unsaved person produce good fruit?

 

[SteelDisciple]

Yes, sin is the obvious reasoning, but let's look at the other side of the story:

Can a saved person choose not to produce good fruit?

On the flipside, can an unsaved person produce good fruit?

Saved people produce bad fruit everyday practically.heh

 

[QuantaCura]

Saved people produce bad fruit everyday practically.heh

I'm not even talking about bad fruit, but just no fruit (which I guess is bad fruit in and of itself).

What I've gathered from some of the threads is that people believe the fruits that are produced are evidence of one's salvation. But, if saved people can choose to produce no fruit or bad fruit and unsaved people can produce good fruit, then why is fruit evidence of anything?

 

[£amb]

Yes, sin is the obvious reasoning, but let's look at the other side of the story:

Can a saved person choose not to produce good fruit?

On the flipside, can an unsaved person produce good fruit?

Hm..that is a question. I know what the bible says about good/bad fruit. But can a saved person produce bad fruit? I think that's where free-will could come in to play. If someone decided not to be obedient to God and take matters into your own hands then maybe, possibly yes. But, with us being a child of God, would He allow us to continue on the course of choosing not to be obedient and not going by His will? I have a brother-in-law, who is a non-believer, do some great things for people, but the issue with this is that his master is not God, but Sin.

 

[Jimmy West]

Simple question

All people have God-given free will.

 

[woopapa1]

maybe the so called saved person doesn't really have a relationship with Jesus Christ,therfor can't produce good fruit

 

[QuantaCura]

maybe the so called saved person doesn't really have a relationship with Jesus Christ,therfor can't produce good fruit

Can one be saved without a relationship with Jesus?

 

[£amb]

Can one be saved without a relationship with Jesus?

It's only through Jesus that one can be saved. To deny Jesus is to deny God. There's a verse somewhere in the NT that says this but I can not pin-point the verse at this moment.

 

[£amb]

Aha! Found the verse I was searching for: John 5:23 "that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him."

Okay, so it didn't say deny, but to honor Him.....(couldn't remember the exact wording)

 

[Buho]

Regarding no-fruit, Matthew 13 comes to mind, the parable of the sower.

Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

How it seems to me:

Seed on path = nonbelievers
Seed on rocks = believer without dicipling, community, church, poor in the word, poor in communion with God. Possibly also not born-again believers.
Seed on thorns = nonbelievers who ignore the Word
Seed on good soil = believers

Jesus says these believers will produce a crop, however small.

From a "saved" believer's point of view, decisions are fairly black & white: you either choose for-God or against-God. This can be called good works and sin, but at it's heart is simply for-God or against-God. God's greatest commandment to us is to love God. The second greatest is to love God's children (a reflection of the first). From these two come the 10 commandments and all other commandments in the Old Testament. Essentially, if you're not loving God, you're going to sin.

And yes, "saved" people can choose against-God. The interesting question to me is: do "unsaved" people have free will? The Bible speaks of nonbelievers being completely unable to produce "good fruits." Does that mean they are unable to choose and are forced to sin 100% of the time?

<-- doesn't have answers to that; new subject for him

 

[Ragamuffins]

Yes, sin is the obvious reasoning, but let's look at the other side of the story:

Can a saved person choose not to produce good fruit?

Yes. By not obeying God, a person can in fact choose not to produce good fruit. Sometimes however we do produce good fruit without trying.

On the flipside, can an unsaved person produce good fruit?

Not for the good of the kingdom, but people can and do good things.

 

[Ragamuffins]

Can one be saved without a relationship with Jesus?

Define relationship. Please.

 

[clayharryman]

On the flipside, can an unsaved person produce good fruit?

For many years, I talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. I sang in the choir with a hangover, for starters.

While I was in the Navy, a friend of mine (now saved) was a very proud agnostic. I was a believer, but not really saved.

We had each bought a pizza and were walking through downtown San Diego with our food. A homeless man asked if he could have some. My response was an emphatic "no." His response shamed me then and shames me to this day - he gave the man his entire pizza without a second thought.

He was unsaved and produced good fruit, in my opinion. If he didn't change that man's life, he did change mine. Here I was, a professing Christian who wouldn't help a man that was down. He was a professing agnostic who helped. I was a Pharisee, he was a Samaritan.

Can one be saved without a relationship with Jesus?

I'll assume this is not a rhetorical question. As I mentioned, I was a believer for many years without actually devoting my life to Jesus. I did many things that, professing Christ, shamed His church. Was I saved? No. Had I died during that phase of my life, I would most assuredly have not entered God's Kingdom.

Now, down to the topic "Do saved people have free will?":

Why did Paul complain so much that he did not do what he wanted to do in Romans 7? Paul's free will allowed him to sin. The big difference between the saved and unsaved is the intervention of the Holy Spirit when you are about to do something you know you should not do.

While everyone has a conscience, generally speaking it only kicks in when we do something to hurt someone else whether directly or indirectly. This is human nature.

For example: When one sets out to get drunk on a Friday night in the comfort of their own home, the conscience of the unsaved would find no problem with this. They don't have to be at work on Saturday, they aren't going to drive, they aren't going to even see anyone else. What's the harm in that?

Now, for the saved, we know that drunkenness causes harm to our bodies (liver, kidney, brain problems, etc.) and therefore the temple of God. I have set out to get drunk since January 30, 2002 (the date the old drunkard Clay was crucified with Christ), but rarely get as much as one drink past my lips before I am repulsed by the alcohol.

Yes, we have free will. We also have a counselor who is here to guide us through life's issues.

Adios,
Clay

 

[moicherie]

Define saved, do you mean one who Jesus will take to heaven or one who Jesus rescued which encompasses the whole of humanity as per John 3 :16. When the fire service save people they do not ask for a pledge of allegience from the person they save. Jesus death saved the whole of humanity but whether the whole of humanity is going to heaven is another matter

 

[clayharryman]

Define saved, do you mean one who Jesus will take to heaven or one who Jesus rescued which encompasses the whole of humanity as per John 3 :16. When the fire service save people they do not ask for a pledge of allegience from the person they save. Jesus death saved the whole of humanity but whether the whole of humanity is going to heaven is another matter

I mean the 'saved' as mentioned in the entire verse of John 3:16:

"For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

As I mentioned, I was a believer, but I was not bound for paradise. Remember, God knows what is in your heart:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Even though I had called on the Lord, I was not truly saved. I had faked it for more than thirty years. I knew most of the New Testament by scripture and verse. I had no understanding of what I read, though, because I was not guided by the Holy Spirit.

I'm rambling again. Sorry. Anyway, that's what I meant by saved.

Adios,
Clay

 

[moses916]

there is no such thing as saved... the Lord comes as a theif in the night, and if youre not ready at the exact time of his arrival, it might be very hard to make it to heaven, just like the 5 virgins, they were ready their whole life, yet at the time the Lord arrived, they weren't, and what did the Lord say to them... so its a process, salvation is a process, love God and show this love by producing good works, so i can't answer your question since being saved isn't an option

 

[moicherie]

save[size=-1]1[/size] ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (s

v)
v. saved, sav·ing, saves
v. tr.

1. 1. <LI type=a>To rescue from harm, danger, or loss.
   2. To set free from the consequences of sin; redeem.
2. To keep in a safe condition; safeguard.
3. To prevent the waste or loss of; conserve.
4. To set aside for future use; store.
5. To treat with care by avoiding fatigue, wear, or damage; spare: save one's eyesight.
6. To make unnecessary; obviate: Your taking the trunk to the attic has saved me an extra trip.
7. 1. <LI type=a>Sports. To prevent (a goal by an opponent). <LI type=a>To preserve a victory in (a game).
   2. Baseball. To preserve (another pitcher's win) by protecting one's team's lead during a stint of relief pitching.
8. Computer Science. To copy (a file) from a computer's main memory to a disk or other storage medium.

v. intr.

1. To avoid waste or expense; economize.
2. To accumulate money: saving for a vacation.
3. To preserve a person or thing from harm or loss.

n.

1. Sports. An act that prevents an opponent from scoring.
2. Baseball. A preservation by a relief pitcher of another pitcher's win.

Idiom:
save (one's) breath To refrain from a futile appeal or effort: Save your breath; you can't dissuad