divorcing spiritual /pagan aspects from the physical/bodily aspects of Chinese Kung fu

lambkisses

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As I sit here convalescing from the stab wound my husband lovingly gave me I have had much time to both ponder and receive much criticism about how this whole chain of unfortunate events were put in motion. Ultimately I knew in my heart of hearts this was an accident that could have easily been prevented in a couple ways. I should have not gone against my better judgement and bought the spears, my niece and I definitely should not have taken the rubber guards off to fight my husband, and he probably didn't need to deliver a "death blow" to a 16 year old who was flat on her back. However my personal assessment of how to assign responsibly is not universally accepted by all members of both mine and my husband's family. I understand all three of us were some what to blame and the situation really was the sum total of a series of bad decisions but a couple of my more conservative/fundamentalist relatives believe that there was something darker at play. I would love to just write it off as crazy religious talk but they do bring up some interesting points, that's now why I am curious at what line does a secular tradition which may have roots in another religion become a form of idolitry.
Anyways, my husband is for all practicality a sei-fu(Kung fu master) his family has a long tradition in southern shaolin kung-fu. However, his parents are both Christian ,he himself is Christian and he grew up in the states so no, he is not, nor has he ever been a shaolin monk. His skill both armed or empty handed is phenomenal and he is constantly in his dojo training. From a physiological stand point his remarkable skill is from the hours he spends training, he is constantly lifting weights, stretching and practicing forms . I have absolutely no problem with that (well almost absolutely no problem more on that later).
However, there is also a very heavy spiritual side to Chinese Kung fu, here is where my curiosity was piqued by my relatives. The video of fight between my husband, my niece, and myself had made its rounds in or families. The general consensus is that she and I were dumb to be brandishing spears, my niece was dumb for attempting a surprise attack, and my husband should have taken a more playful approach to us and realized there wasn't a real need to disarm and "defeat"us. But my fundamentalist aunt made a rather bold accusation that while practicing Chinese Kung fu, my husband some how channeled the devil's strength (apparently the final blow he administers shattered the broom handle and permanently bent the spear that I got stabbed with). Of course I wrote the devil's strength comment off but it did get me to start thinking about the things my husband does when he trains.
In his dojo he has 4 statues of Chinese "gods" I guess is what you call them. Kwon yu: the General of heaven, Wong Tai shin: the king of heaven, Sun Wu Kong: the Monkey King,and Yim Lau Wong: the emperor of hell. When he begins to train he always lights an incense sick before the statutes would this be considered idolitry? I have asked him why he does this and his answer is always "I don't know, it's tradition". For the most part I have accepted that as no different than him wearing the fancy pajamas. Like I Daud his parents raised him Christian and when I ask them they told me the same "tradition" I would like to add that he never bows to them or prays to them though.
When he does weapons training he has a set that are called the "weapons of heaven"; the spear: king of all weapons, the sword: marshal of all weapons, the Bo staff: grandfather of all weapons, the Kwan Dao: general of all weapons and the chain whip: lady of all weapons. At first I found it strange that he would address them as such and I find it odd that each time he removes one to train with he gives a bow then again when he replaces it. Is this idolitry? My queries are again answered with "tradition".
Perhaps the thing that causes me to question most is his practice of drunken boxing. Unlike in the movies, 99% of it is done sober. Most of the forms and motions only imitate intoxication. However the Hong Gar style my husband practices does have some motions which are performed slightly intoxicated. When he trains in those forms he actually gets intoxicated in his dojo, this bothers me because I don't believe Christians should get intoxicated and because whenever he does this, every drink he pours for him self he always pours one before the king of heaven and one before the emperor of hell. The explanation for this, again "tradition". His parents tell me the same thing and they are some of the strictest Christians I have ever met.
My question is when do you cross the line between tradition and idolitry? I am asking more out of an academic curiosity.
 

PloverWing

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I train in a different martial art. Our school has a sense of honor and respect (thus a lot of bowing to each other, to the dojo, etc.), and some philosophy for those who want it, but no images of gods.

This might be similar to the "meat sacrificed to idols" situation in St. Paul's letters. On the one hand, I don't believe that there are any real gods except the one God. I expect that your husband wasn't wielding the devil's strength, merely the strength and skill of a trained warrior. I can imagine bowing to my weapons, as a way of honoring them -- that ceremony would make sense to me -- though I don't do that myself.

On the other hand, burning incense in front of images would be too far for me. It sounds like your husband intends no idolatry when he does it (much as St. Paul's fellow Christians intended no idolatry when eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols), but it would be uncomfortable for me, perhaps because my church uses candles and incense in worship, so there's a strong association that I can't dismiss.
 
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lambkisses

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I train in a different martial art. Our school has a sense of honor and respect (thus a lot of bowing to each other, to the dojo, etc.), and some philosophy for those who want it, but no images of gods.

This might be similar to the "meat sacrificed to idols" situation in St. Paul's letters. On the one hand, I don't believe that there are any real gods except the one God. I expect that your husband wasn't wielding the devil's strength, merely the strength and skill of a trained warrior. I can imagine bowing to my weapons, as a way of honoring them -- that ceremony would make sense to me -- though I don't do that myself.

On the other hand, burning incense in front of images would be too far for me. It sounds like your husband intends no idolatry when he does it (much as St. Paul's fellow Christians intended no idolatry when eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols), but it would be uncomfortable for me, perhaps because my church uses candles and incense in worship, so there's a strong association that I can't dismiss.
Thanks for your insight I was hoping for the opinion of some Christian practitioners of eastern martial arts. I agree with you that my husband most likely isn't into idolitry or "devil's strength". Seriously ask him to actually tell you anything about the king of heaven or the emperor of hell and you will be met with a blank stare where as if you ask him about Moses, Abraham, Sarah,Naomi or Deborah he could go on for hours. And about devil's strength, my husband practices a southern form known as Hong Gar and there are some practitioners who do something called "channeling". Some of the guys he occasionally trains with does it, it is when you can supposedly chanel the essence of an ancestral god or demon (apparently in Chinese folk religion demons can be friendly or something ) to give you strength. My husband says it's baloney but "tradition".he doesn't do it and he is routinely able to beat the crap out of his friends who do. As an academic/theological question would something like that be considered idolitry or witch craft?
I wanted to ask my question more in the philosophical academic sense. I guess in broader terms it is a question about the intermingling of the concepts of faith and culture and the different views of this in the east and west.
For the most part the culture in the west and near east is dominated by judeao - Christian tradition. Traditionally you are either Christian, Jewish, Muslim, some other religion, or non religious period. The is no accepted way to be both Muslim and Christian at the same time, there is a small number of messianic jews but for the most part you don't mix and match. However in the far east it is quite different it is possible to be bhuddist, taoist, and practice Chinese folk religion all at the same time. The cultural view of religion in that part of the world is you absolutely can mix and match, I have been to homes of Chinese families who would have their spirit alters right along side crosses and stauettes of Jesus. As a result it seems many things that began as religious had made is way into becoming secular tradition. Heck if you ever read the monkey king and the journey west, it is a Chinese classical novel from the 4th century, it tells the story of the monkey god and how it took the combined strength of the gods of taoism, bhuddism, and Chinese folklore to restrain the monkey king. If there were to be a western equivalent it would pretty much read like a buddy cop comedy with Jesus, Mohammed, Zorroaster, and Santa Claus teaming up to save Christmas from the Grinch and then at the end the Grinch's heart grows 3 sizes and he becomes a good guy. Compare that to Dantes Devine comedy and you can see the contrasting way east and west view faith. I want to know how as Christians in this increasingly global world how do we reconcile these conflicting cultural views especially as it applies to mixed race couples.
 
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Dave-W

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Chuck Norris is a blackbelt in several asian Marital Arts, starting with learning Tang Soo Do in Korea while stationed there in the US Air Force. After gaining black belts in a few other disciplines, he invented his own combined Art called Chun Kuk DO (universal way). He appeared in one of Bruce Lee's movies and of course has had his own string of Martial arts movies and a TV show. He is also a very committed and strong Evangelical Christian.

He is a good example of being able to separate the physical Martial Art from the idol worship side of it
 
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Dave-W

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As an academic/theological question would something like that be considered idolitry or witch craft?
Those who "channel?" Definitely.
 
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lambkisses

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Chuck Norris is a blackbelt in several asian Marital Arts, starting with learning Tang Soo Do in Korea while stationed there in the US Air Force. After gaining black belts in a few other disciplines, he invented his own combined Art called Chun Kuk DO (universal way). He appeared in one of Bruce Lee's movies and of course has had his own string of Martial arts movies and a TV show. He is also a very committed and strong Evangelical Christian.

He is a good example of being able to separate the physical Martial Art from the idol worship side of it
I know it's possible, I know many Christian martial artists who are the same way. My husband is Christian and flat out told me he does what he does because tradition. His father did it and his father's father. His parents are Christian and raised him Christian, they say tradition too.
When I inquire into others the responses run the gambit of it's just traditional and fine for Christians to do all the way to is heathen and completely unacceptable. What I find interesting is that the division is on ethnic lines. Asian Christians both martial artists and non tend more towards the it's tradition and is secular while white, black, and Hispanics both martial artists and non tend more towards the it's questionable to its unacceptable. This is where I find it very interesting. I know some Christian Tae Kwon do practisioners who even refuse to wear the yin yang on their uniforms, they say that it would no different than wearing a Cresent moon or star of David or pentagram. Then there are those who would wear the yin yang but say that having statutes of gods in a dojo is unacceptable. My curiosity is to where the line should be drawn. I guess this is very similar to the is it OK to decorate for Halloween or is a Santa Clause is OK at Christmas debate.
I am really interested actually to hear from some Asian Christians who could elaborate more on the "it's on because it's tradition". I don't want to criticize I just want to understand. His parents are very devout Christians and that's the only answer they tend to give me. I think it is odd personally that they don't bat an eye at having a statue of the "emperor of hell " (and that is what they call him, I am not just assigning a name based on my religious bias) and offering him a cup of maotai before practicing drunken boxing, yet they didn't like the fact that my husband had a motorcycle helmet with a cartoon devil painted on it.
And about drunken boxing, that does bug the crap out of me. Again it's tradition and truly it is beautiful, but is it acceptable for a Christian?
 
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lambkisses

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Those who "channel?" Definitely.
My husband doesn't believe in it at all. His feelings on it are as such:
If what you are channeling is God, why would he prostrate himself into your body in order to assist you in what is often times a petty struggle with another of his beloved children. Consequently my husband also does not believe in the Catholic dogma of transubstantation, he feels that no man, no priest or bishop is powerful enough to command Jesus out of heaven and into the communion wafer.
If what you are channeling is not God, that means you are channeling a demon and the story of the man and legion should serve as a dire warning about the pain and anguish caused by demonic possession.
 
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PloverWing

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Some of the guys he occasionally trains with does it, it is when you can supposedly chanel the essence of an ancestral god or demon (apparently in Chinese folk religion demons can be friendly or something ) to give you strength. My husband says it's baloney but "tradition".he doesn't do it and he is routinely able to beat the crap out of his friends who do. As an academic/theological question would something like that be considered idolitry or witch craft?
I wanted to ask my question more in the philosophical academic sense. I guess in broader terms it is a question about the intermingling of the concepts of faith and culture and the different views of this in the east and west.

I gather from your post that your husband is Chinese, or Chinese-American, and has some of these Chinese cultural/religious customs as part of the culture he grew up with. Unfortunately, I can't bring an insider's perspective to that aspect of the question. I, and most of the other students and teachers in my dojo, grew up in the US, and none of us is from Okinawa (we study an Okinawan martial art), so none of us brings a family history of Okinawan culture. I hope someone else can speak to that part of the issue.

On "channeling" and idolatry: I see idolatry as very much linked to a person's intent. If a person intends to worship a god who is not God, then that's forbidden. If a person intends to communicate with a spirit who genuinely exists and is conscious and is not God, that's kinda borderline, but I would be careful. On the other hand, a person who doesn't think spirits like this are real conscious beings, but rather are just convenient ways to think about strength or mobility or whatever -- I don't think a person in that position is being idolatrous when envisioning this metaphorical spirit.

If, for example, I imagine myself embodying the spirit of Arya Stark or Syrio Forel when I fight, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They are clearly fictional characters (from A Game of Thrones), so there's no occult practice here, just a kind of visualization. If the monkey king and the emperor of hell are like that for your husband, then I don't see a problem. Again, a lot of it is tied up with belief and intent.

On the broader issue of drawing ideas from other religions and philosophies: You're right, that westerners tend to see religions as more exclusive, so that you belong to one or the other but not both. I'd be interested to see comments from an Asian poster about how different philosophies combine and blend in the east.

In general, I'm willing to draw truths and insights from other religions and philosophies; truth is truth, even if a non-Christian is saying it, and many non-Christians are wise. My own boundary is that I will not worship things that are not God (and, of course, I try not to believe things that aren't true), so that has me saying "no" to some elements of other religions.
 
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lambkisses

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If, for example, I imagine myself embodying the spirit of Arya Stark or Syrio Forel when I fight, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They are clearly fictional characters (from A Game of Thrones), so there's no occult practice here, just a kind of visualization. If the monkey king and the emperor of hell are like that for your husband, then I don't see a problem. Again, a lot of it is tied up with belief and intent.
Oh my husband doesn't believe in channeling at all. He is completely Christian. Like I said he can't tell you anything about the emperor of hell or the king of heaven (what he knows about the monkey king is what is written in the journey west which isn't a religious text) yet he can pretty much give you a play by play of whom begat whom in the OT. So it is pretty safe to say that in his case there is absolutely 0 intent to worship anything but God as a god.
But that still doesn't make the diactomy of the broader question any less interesting to me. Chinese pastors have told me in the past it is secular tradition period. I accepted that but now since my unfortunate stabbing had brought the question back up I want to know more why.
And I really want to know why a picture of a cartoon devil on a motor cycle with a "Helll's Satan's" bottom rocker is verboten yet it is secular tradition to pour the emperor of hell a shot before training.
 
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PloverWing

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And I really want to know why a picture of a cartoon devil on a motor cycle with a "Helll's Satan's" bottom rocker is verboten yet it is secular tradition to pour the emperor of hell a shot before training.
I've been thinking about what you said about different cultural backgrounds and the cartoon devil. Maybe what you get used to growing up really does make a lot of difference.

I'm a computer scientist, and one of the mugs in my office has this little guy on it:

Bsd_daemon.jpg


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Bsd_daemon.jpg). It's the BSD daemon, a cute little red guy with horns and a pitchfork, wearing tennis shoes. It's the mascot for a widely used computer operating system (BSD UNIX). It's kind of a joke about the mischievous spirits that seem to inhabit our computers sometimes. No one who uses BSD UNIX thinks of it as any kind of invocation of actual spirits or actual devils. It's just a harmless goofy little red guy.

Every so often, someone wearing a BSD daemon hat or shirt will run into someone completely unaware of the UNIX operating system, and will be met with accusations: "What are you doing wearing a symbol of the devil?"

So maybe something like that is going on here. For someone who grew up with the general of heaven and the emperor of hell in their culture, they're familiar, and maybe they're harmless, like my BSD daemon. But if the cartoon devil is outside of their familiar culture, they look at the cartoon devil and see an attention-getting symbol of evil -- just as I look at the emperor of hell, who is unfamiliar to me, and think of idolatry and sorcery.
 
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lambkisses

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I've been thinking about what you said about different cultural backgrounds and the cartoon devil. Maybe what you get used to growing up really does make a lot of difference.

I'm a computer scientist, and one of the mugs in my office has this little guy on it:

Bsd_daemon.jpg


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Bsd_daemon.jpg). It's the BSD daemon, a cute little red guy with horns and a pitchfork, wearing tennis shoes. It's the mascot for a widely used computer operating system (BSD UNIX). It's kind of a joke about the mischievous spirits that seem to inhabit our computers sometimes. No one who uses BSD UNIX thinks of it as any kind of invocation of actual spirits or actual devils. It's just a harmless goofy little red guy.

Every so often, someone wearing a BSD daemon hat or shirt will run into someone completely unaware of the UNIX operating system, and will be met with accusations: "What are you doing wearing a symbol of the devil?"

So maybe something like that is going on here. For someone who grew up with the general of heaven and the emperor of hell in their culture, they're familiar, and maybe they're harmless, like my BSD daemon. But if the cartoon devil is outside of their familiar culture, they look at the cartoon devil and see an attention-getting symbol of evil -- just as I look at the emperor of hell, who is unfamiliar to me, and think of idolatry and sorcery.
I guess that makes sense but you know the cartoon devil with the pitchfork and red pajamas is not even biblical. It is from medieval illustrations inspired by Dante's inferno. What I find strange about this in my husband's family is that they are Chinese Christians and I am almost certain this is because they believe that this truly is what Christians consider to be the fallen angle Lucifer.
Yes I agree they grew up seeing the king of heaven and emperor of hell. That's what really begs my question about the line drawn between secular culture and religious beliefs. If you think about it there is a much greater argument for the BSD to be considered purely secular as it is an heirloom of Dante's Divine comedy, a work which for lack of better words is religious fan fiction written by a political satirist, where as the king of heaven and the emperor of hell in the context of eastern martial arts do stem from a religious background.
 
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PloverWing

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I guess that makes sense but you know the cartoon devil with the pitchfork and red pajamas is not even biblical. It is from medieval illustrations inspired by Dante's inferno. What I find strange about this in my husband's family is that they are Chinese Christians and I am almost certain this is because they believe that this truly is what Christians consider to be the fallen angle Lucifer.
Yes I agree they grew up seeing the king of heaven and emperor of hell. That's what really begs my question about the line drawn between secular culture and religious beliefs. If you think about it there is a much greater argument for the BSD to be considered purely secular as it is an heirloom of Dante's Divine comedy, a work which for lack of better words is religious fan fiction written by a political satirist, where as the king of heaven and the emperor of hell in the context of eastern martial arts do stem from a religious background.
I agree that the pitchfork-and-pajamas devil comes out of European/American Christian culture, not the Bible.

What I was getting at is that maybe what is culturally familiar is more likely to feel harmless, and what is culturally foreign is more likely to feel sinister. So maybe your husband's family feel that the king of heaven is harmless but the cartoon devil is sinister, for the same reason that I feel that the cartoon devil is harmless but the king of heaven is sinister.

But it's just a guess. I'd have to talk to your husband's family to see whether my guess is right.
 
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lambkisses

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I agree that the pitchfork-and-pajamas devil comes out of European/American Christian culture, not the Bible.

What I was getting at is that maybe what is culturally familiar is more likely to feel harmless, and what is culturally foreign is more likely to feel sinister. So maybe your husband's family feel that the king of heaven is harmless but the cartoon devil is sinister, for the same reason that I feel that the cartoon devil is harmless but the king of heaven is sinister.

But it's just a guess. I'd have to talk to your husband's family to see whether my guess is right.
Then I guess the even broader question is, and this is universal to Christians of all cultures, how do certain pagan traditions become harmless and ate they really indeed harmless.
 
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