Divide among elites and rest of country widening ahead of 2024 election

[BCP1928]

Oh no, that's what I was told. I wasn't educated in an Ivy League school so my education didn't matter much, it was the Ivy leaguer that mattered.

It was quite telling. As has been many comments from the left in regards to great unwashed, smelly Wal-Mart people and those in fly over country. Parents should just stay out of their kids education etc. The elites know best.

You sound very bitter. But if you're stuck in a blue-collar job that you don't like or that doesn't afford you the social status you want, maybe you should do something about it. I started my working life in a blue-collar job but now I have an MA and am part of the "elite" you are vilifying. If I can do it, you can too. After all, this is America where anyone can get ahead through hard work and self discipline. More likely you have just made some poor lifestyle choices. That certainly is not my fault and I don't need to do anything about it.

 

[rjs330]

I’d have to see that conversation for myself. I’ve known plenty of ivy leaguers and I can’t think of any who’d say that. I’ve certainly never seen it around here, but feel free to link to the thread if you’d like and I’ll take a look.



Nobody here says that.


I’ll grant you some of the points on the trans and school board issues, but it also seems to me that you’re reading into things sentiments that aren’t there.

You are incorrect. But you are free to believe what you like. No I'm not going to dig for examples. But you have put a pin in the idea. So from now on when I see it I will point it out.

And I appreciate your acknowledgement regarding the trans and school issues.

 

[rjs330]

Can you list which post numbers in this thread you're talking about?

I don't recall that it has occurred in this thread specifically. People have a tendency to be more careful when a thread is specifically about this type of behavior and the divide it causes. When I said these threads I was referring to threads where I've seen it.

 

[rambot]

Just so we can differentiate, Is a "doctor" who knows a lot of stuff about the human body "elitist"?

We should be able to acknowledge that there are some people who know more about a topic than ourselves. This is what mature adults with an appropriate amount of humility should be able to acknowledge.

What happens when people just say "elites" is it obfuscates the idea that elites DO know more than common people about certain subjects of import.

Sometimes I think it's just hard for some people to believe how much more people know than them on a topic.

Of course, people who know more than us tend to also be viewed as smug and arrogant. And some of them are. But many are not. Of the truly HIGH level intelligent people that I recall from my university days, I had one truly insufferable prof but the other 2 dozen were GREAT. Of my high performing friends (maybe a dozen) two of them were weird but the rest were great.

Of course, if you judge ALL PhD holders negatively based on your experience with one or two, well, that's a bigotted response.

 

[rjs330]

You sound very bitter. But if you're stuck in a blue-collar job that you don't like or that doesn't afford you the social status you want, maybe you should do something about it. I started my working life in a blue-collar job but now I have an MA and am part of the "elite" you are vilifying. If I can do it, you can too. After all, this is America where anyone can get ahead through hard work and self discipline. More likely you have just made some poor lifestyle choices. That certainly is not my fault and I don't need to do anything about it.

Lol, you don't have to be bitter to point out a truth. I'm doing very well thank you very much and I love what I do. Been doing it for 38 years. But then I don't really have to defend myself.

I've made my points, you don't have to agree with me. But the next time you hear the words racist or a random phobia accusation or someone make a comment on on the uneducated people in the flyover country etc, maybe you'll recognize what I'm talking about about. Maybe you won't.

 

[BCP1928]

Lol, you don't have to be bitter to point out a truth. I'm doing very well thank you very much and I love what I do. Been doing it for 38 years. But then I don't really have to defend myself.

I've made my points, you don't have to agree with me. But the next time you hear the words racist or a random phobia accusation or someone make a comment on on the uneducated people in the flyover country etc, maybe you'll recognize what I'm talking about about. Maybe you won't.

Probably not, as I lived in flyover country myself for 30 years and in a red southern state now. But I agree that such comments are an over-generalization. Not everybody in flyover country believes that Jesus hates gun control, thinks global warming is a hoax and wants Donald Trump to be President whether he has the votes or not. Not everybody in flyover country touts Jewish space lasers, stolen elections or the notion that drag queens can turn kids gay by reading to them. Not everybody from flyover country cheered when one of their prominent champions came on TV to show us enlarged pictures of a naked Hunter Biden having sex with a prostitute. Still, I try not to spend too much time in Walmart and now that Taylor Swift has been declared an Enemy of the State I may not shop there at all.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Coincidentally, I stumbled across this today:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/trump-american-gentry-wyman-elites/620151/

Adapted from this, in case you can't get past the Atlantic's paywall:

American Gentry

Local Power and the Social Order

patrickwyman.substack.com

 

[rambot]

A lot of elites definitely feel the way the poster stated. The biggest thing is they think they are better or smarter than everyone else. You see it in these threads. Things like, you didn't go to the right school. Or you do y have a college education so you're not as smart and your opinions don't count. Doctors are often thought of as practically gods.

Hey man. NOBODY is begging you to go see a doctor. Don't.

Teachers know far more about raising kids than the parents do.

Ever heard people complain that you don't need any training to be a parent. Are there any prerequisites to being a parent more than sexual intercourse and carrying a fetus to a healthy delivery?
No.
There are no.
Teachers receive MORE training in child development (probably about 2x as much) that police receieve for their ENTIRE job. Teachers are around 25+ kids all day. Teachers had their own parents.
Where ALMOST all parents exceed teachers knowledge is a parent's knowledge of their OWN CHILDREN. There are definitely parents of my students to whom I would totally differ when we talk about their kid. But there are some who do not know their child; or at least don't know attributes about their child.
But please, please don't argue that being able to have sex and having lived through your teen years that you are now a child development expert.
And to be clear, there should be nothing wrong with that.


Now, while I have NEVER seen a poster deride another poster for going to the wrong school, I can honestly say, that's the most insufferable thing I've heard and if I ever see that I too would call that nonsense out. Now, Joe's Upstairs College of Dentistry, may not be the place i'm looking to get connected to a new graduate, generally speaking, if your school was accredited by appropriate bodies, you're doing fine.

Etc etc. Those are the elites. Yeah you want a plumber when your toilet backs up, but plumbers are low brow know nothing's.

Huh. I have to say you really have a pessimistic and completely unrealistic opinion of most "elites". Most of your argument stems on ideas that you are GIIVING them and something you really could not prove; and certainly not something you have proof of. IT ends up sounding more like you have a chip on your shoulder about "elites". In so much as there ARE elites who behave the way that you say, there are people of EVERY economic, social, educational class who are pompous idiots.

Parents who haven't attended any specialized schools surely can't raise kids or educate them properly.

Having a sperm and an egg come together doesn't mean that you CAN raise kids or educate them properly.

The elites live in cities and are smart educated and really know things while those in more rural areas are a bunch of hicks.

That's the impression of so many elites.

This whole opinion seems to be 100% informed by pop culture.

 

[RoBo1988]

Just so we can differentiate, Is a "doctor" who knows a lot of stuff about the human body "elitist"?

IMO: no.
Anyone who ever went to work on Monday, or made payroll on Friday, usually doesn't qualify as elite. A doctor, though (possibly)arrogant, is providing a service.

Contrast that with a lifetime politician, who has probably never even changed a tire in their life, deciding how someone else can live; but of course they will be exempt from these regulations ( think governor Newsome, and governor Whitmer skirting COVID regulations while they arrest a Michigan barber for doing their job) . The results of the OP's poll reflected such sentiments. That's what I call "elite"

 

[rjs330]

Hey man. NOBODY is begging you to go see a doctor. Don't.

That's your take? I go to the doctor all the time. When I have problems with my knee I go see my orthopedic doctor I didn't go to a brain surgeon. When I had trouble with my foot I went to my podiatrist I didn't go to my cardiologist. The left seems to have such faith in "medical experts" that whatever a doctor says is gold. Even though they have no real expertise in the area.

Teachers receive MORE training in child development (probably about 2x as much) that police receieve for their ENTIRE job. Teachers are around 25+ kids all day. Teachers had their own parents.

See I was right. The elite think they know more.

Now, while I have NEVER seen a poster deride another poster for going to the wrong school, I can honestly say, that's the most insufferable thing I've heard and if I ever see that I too would call that nonsense out. Now, Joe's Upstairs College of Dentistry, may not be the place i'm looking to get connected to a new graduate, generally speaking, if your school was accredited by appropriate bodies, you're doing fine.

Well it happened. Glad you don't agree with it.

Having a sperm and an egg come together doesn't mean that you CAN raise kids or educate them properly.

Well you missed the point. But you made it earlier.

This whole opinion seems to be 100% informed by pop culture.

It's made from posts I've read, articles I've read BY the elites in the media, and talking heads on the tele. Every phobe comment, racism claim, white privilege, claim, fly over country claim, etc is laced with elitism.

I think I'm done with this thread. I've come to the place where I won't argue I'm circles anymore. We've had the teachers know best discussions before. No need to rehash that again.

 

[rjs330]

IMO: no.
Anyone who ever went to work on Monday, or made payroll on Friday, usually doesn't qualify as elite. A doctor, though (possibly)arrogant, is providing a service.

Contrast that with a lifetime politician, who has probably never even changed a tire in their life, deciding how someone else can live; but of course they will be exempt from these regulations ( think governor Newsome, and governor Whitmer skirting COVID regulations while they arrest a Michigan barber for doing their job) . The results of the OP's poll reflected such sentiments. That's what I call "elite"

Thr issue that keeps being missed is that having some knowledge or education money does not make you an elitist. A doctor that does brain surgery is elite. They are not an elitist.

The elite in these conversations is about those who think that they are better and smarter than everyone else by virtue of a specific education, money status or where they live, went to school or what they do.

Like teachers thinking they know more about how to raise a child and will tell you so by virtue of their 4 year degree. Meanwhile these poor dopey right wing parents are too backward to be able to raise their kid properly according to the leftist instruction the teacher had.

Yes, some parents can be a total mess. Apparently so can some teachers.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Thr issue that keeps being missed is that having some knowledge or education money does not make you an elitist. A doctor that does brain surgery is elite. They are not an elitist.

The elite in these conversations is about those who think that they are better and smarter than everyone else by virtue of a specific education, money status or where they live, went to school or what they do.

"Better" and "smarter" are two different things. "Smarter", or perhaps, more educated on a given subject is something that's at least somewhat objective and quantifiable. Being "better" is not.

I'm not denying that there are people who think they're "better" because of some status indicator - they do exist - but IME, they are a far, far smaller percentage of the population than you seem to think.

Like teachers thinking they know more about how to raise a child and will tell you so by virtue of their 4 year degree.

Hold on. Are we talking about being a "better person" or just a "better-qualified person"? Because talking about "teachers thinking they know more about how to raise a child" is a matter of qualifications (or at least perceived qualifications), just the same way that a doctor's ability to practice brain surgery is a matter of qualifications.

You can debate the merits of those qualifications, but it still says nothing about the teacher being a "better" person, merely a "better-qualified" one.

It seems to me that this disconnect comes at least in part from you conflating the two.

 

[KCfromNC]

I don't recall that it has occurred in this thread specifically. People have a tendency to be more careful when a thread is specifically about this type of behavior and the divide it causes. When I said these threads I was referring to threads where I've seen it.

Again, can you link to some of those threads so we can check them out ourselves?

 

[KCfromNC]

The elite in these conversations is about those who think that they are better and smarter than everyone else by virtue of a specific education, money status or where they live, went to school or what they do.

Strangely enough, that's not how the source in the OP defined them. But perhaps that's the game here - use a word in one specific way and expect readers not to look into that specific meaning but instead fill in the blanks from their own imagination.

 

[rambot]

IMO: no.
Anyone who ever went to work on Monday, or made payroll on Friday, usually doesn't qualify as elite. A doctor, though (possibly)arrogant, is providing a service.

Contrast that with a lifetime politician, who has probably never even changed a tire in their life, deciding how someone else can live; but of course they will be exempt from these regulations ( think governor Newsome, and governor Whitmer skirting COVID regulations while they arrest a Michigan barber for doing their job) . The results of the OP's poll reflected such sentiments. That's what I call "elite"

So is being elite a quantifiable identifier or is it a mindset?
When I use the word "elite", I refer to individuals whose influence on government and economics is...."detrimentally large". That is not a commoner and it's not really a doctor either.

 

[SimplyMe]

IMO: no.
Anyone who ever went to work on Monday, or made payroll on Friday, usually doesn't qualify as elite. A doctor, though (possibly)arrogant, is providing a service.

Contrast that with a lifetime politician, who has probably never even changed a tire in their life, deciding how someone else can live; but of course they will be exempt from these regulations ( think governor Newsome, and governor Whitmer skirting COVID regulations while they arrest a Michigan barber for doing their job) . The results of the OP's poll reflected such sentiments. That's what I call "elite"

As someone that has lived most of my life in "flyover country" (the exception being about 6 years in Europe), I've seen plenty of "elites" in that area of the country, as well. Except, it isn't always the rich person. I've talked to various middle class people who have "elitist" attitudes -- just that they feel they know far more about the country and how it should be run than some "Ivy Leaguer." I've heard those "Middle Class elitists" talk about the "Ivy Leaguers" (often extended to anyone with an advanced degree) who know all about the minutiae of various topics but can't "function in real life" (don't know how to do the things "common people" do on a daily basis -- cook, clean, do basic things on a car, etc).

These stereotypical "Ivy Leaguers" are no more accurate than those stated by "elitists" about Middle America. I think the actual number of "rich elitists" and "middle class elitists" are much lower than what people here are trying to claim; just that it is far easier to ridicule and belittle a class of people to make your points, than it is to actually have to address their ideas.

One interesting conversation I remembered was with a man who stated that doctors aren't that different than car mechanics. In both cases, they are going to troubleshoot what the "issue" is and attempt to "fix it" -- the only difference is the car mechanic obviously works on cars and doctors work on people; and the same type of logic can be used with plumbers, computer specialists, etc. Yes, in some cases to do the work typically requires more education than others, but it doesn't change that each needs a particularly set of expertise, as well as troubleshooting skills, to be able to do their job well.