Dissuading New Christians.

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Beanieboy

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Oh, I see, challenging him as a newbie, who might not really have answers to your challenges, as opposed to a veteran.

Yeah, I think its ok. I found that you don't have to necessarily defend what you believe.

For example, and atheist might say to me: I can't see God, hear God, touch God, smell God, so, prove to me that God exists.
I can answer: I can't see your soul, nor touch it, nor smell it, and yet, you probably think you have one, the being within you. I can't smell, touch, or see love, but believe it exists, is not just chemicals in the brain.
But your right. There is no empirical evidence, and I just know. I can't prove it, and if I could, there would be no need for faith.
 
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Garyzenuf

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I'm trying to get at your motivation.

Is it like, you are his friend, and you think he is deluded, because the religion is a delusion, so, because you care, you kind of want to get him to question it as much as you do?



No. I guess I'm just used to debating with people about God and religion from this forum and have thought twice about talking that into the real world where "winning" a debate may lead my friend from his new found happiness.



Is it a thing where, and this happens the most when someone suddenly gets tongues, where...Let's put it this way. I used to babysit these wonderful kids when I was in HS for a single mom who was a nurse. I went to this Christian Rock retreat, but some of the people in our group, who I had never met, were Pentecostal, I had never heard of tongues, and a day later, was speaking in tongues myself.

Suddenly, my tongue is flying around without me telling it to. It felt different, I simply had to allow it, and it happened. However, the tongues was very far behind the fact that I understood that I was worthy of God's love. I often had low self esteem, and thought that God couldn't love me, if I barely like myself. It made God seem real, and it felt as if I was Alice, stepping through the looking glass, and seeing the world in a whole new way. I was very excited about God, really excited, even though I had been a Christian all my life. I hadn't really felt God that often, thought of God as this silent father who you can talk to, but never answers, and at most, offers you a book, and makes you search for it, often in confusing language.

So, because this seemed to be like shifting from 2nd gear into 5th gear, making it more intense, I had a tendency to rattle off about God a lot. After the retreat, I remember someone from my church stopping to say hi in the market, asking how I was, and saying that I was great, that I just received the Baptism of the HS at a retreat this past weekend, am speaking in tongues, and really excited about God. She responded, "that's nice. How's your mom?"

I mentioned it to my mother, who told me that my two sisters do as well, having had similar experiences. Apparently, my mom has weird encounters with God, such as, when she was vacuuming, and in the doorway, saw a bright light, which said, "I want all of your children." God literally speaks to her, everything gets quiet, and a voice speaks.


Naturally, unable to contain my joy, I said something to the woman I babysat for. She said, "Good for you. I do to. But you know, I will tell you this: People after they receive the baptism of the HS should be locked up for a year. You are kind of excited about this new phenomenon which made God seem so real, and excited about God, and Jesus, while almost being too excited, not being able to convey it clearly, thinking that this is great, and you want to share it, when people don't even understand what you are talking about. And you will be so excited, that you won't be able to notice.

I was confused why no one had ever told me, but my sister told me that for her, it became 2nd nature, felt normal after a while. She also reminded me that tongues is a gift, and to focus on the Giver.

So, I was kind of....socially awkward for a while in the beginning, being in such a different head space than others, assuming they all want the joy that I have, wanting so badly to give it to them, but talking from a very different place than they were from, and thus, talking over their head, or simply not being aware of the situation of the person.

The group that I was with would go street witnessing, which felt really weird to me, being so shy in the first place, and also, I mean, I hate when those people come up, ask you if would take a survey, which consists of questions, like" What are the 4 Spiritual Truths" or "If you die tonight, do you know where you will spend eternity?" But there was a sense of urgency, wanting to please God, serving him by helping "save" people, so that they would not perish. One member said that for every soul that he brings to God, he will receive a crown in heaven, and he wants as many as he can so that he may throw them at the feet of God.

For that reason, his conversions seemed rather shallow, kind of a drive-by witnessing, something that I would imagine would be like the seed falling in the rocky ground, shooting up, and withering as quickly, simply because there is no follow up. Maybe that is because he was thinking selfishly about those crowns, and looking good in front of God.

And my beliefs have really been challenged, and I am much more like an aged wine, now, believing much differently, and witnessing by living my life, and in so, people are drawn to the God within me, and I give him the credit.

I no longer inappropriately bring up religion and salvation, thinking that God wants me to at every turn. I no longer spend a lot of time worrying about sin, but rather, looking for opportunities to love and make the world a better place. I no longer have a very rigid view of religion, God, and Salvation, but a much more unitarian view that allows for the breadth and depth of God's love.

So, your friend might be there. You friend might be happy because he realizes that he is loved by God. I thought myself so small, so insignificant, so pedestrian, along with a lot of shame about being too something, not something enough, and for the first time, I felt that I was loved right then, who I was then, the totality of who I was, worthy of it, and I was surprised, amazed, thankful, and a bit crazy. I wanted to share that with everyone, but kind of fumbled my way through.

He does fall into this camp somewhat as I believe most people do who become aware of God, but he seems also to be getting grounded in the meat of the matter as he attends his church Saturdays and Wednesdays, fellowships with other Christians, is always reading about it and listening to CD's of the Gospel and stuff, I don't believe he will be one of those plants that spring up then wither. He seems solid.



I would ask your friend about it - what happened that made him so happy, what changed, what it means to him, to your friendship with him, how he feels about your different views and opinions on religion, and explore it together.

As much as you probably don't want him to be constantly nagging you to convert, he probably wants you to grant him the same courtesy by respecting his beliefs, and allowing him to have them, and practice them.




Actually no matter what I say most of my Christian friends think i'm still Christian, so its not so much amatter of converting, but that I should stop being so stiff-necked. :) As far as his beliefs go I find myself in the strange place of sometimes clarifing questions he has about Christianity to the point of giving him some of my apologetics books and teling him where in the bible to look for certain things.


Dig into the deeper issues. I often say that I see God in all religions because the Truth comes through so many of them. Buddhism says to treat others in loving kindness, to give without worrying about payment. Christianity says to love your neighbor as yourself, and in doing so, according to the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, you are loving God simultaneously through loving others. Muslims are obligated to feed the poor, and it is very important to them and their culture. Hindis believe that anyone in front of you was probably related to you at one time, an uncle, a child, a parent or spouse, and that you should treat the person in front of you with the same care and love as a family member, think of them as family. You are to present yourself to guests as a servant, treating them as gods, lowering yourself in humility and service, and doing it graciously.

So many of the religions, when compared, ring true with the same elements. When there are elements that are very different, and not echoing throughout the others, I then question it, test it, seeing something of God that is not like a dandelion, growing wherever it sees fit, even in the impossibility of a crack in the sidewalk. I think man takes a simple concept, that God only asks of us that we live in love, loving one another and caring for one another, and in so, serve and love God, and know God. The answer is too easy, so we overlook the obvious, the beauty in its simplicity, and create dogma, criteria, ritual, and then, having created them, enslave ourselves and others to them, demanding that the only way that one can be a Real Christian (TM) is to believe what they believe, believe in the dogma and criteria that they created themselves.

I longer see a point to decide who is or isn't Christian, because the person does not serve me, nor can I know the heart of the person, even if I know them very well. We spend 24/7 with ourselves, and still barely know who we are, so it is foolishness for me to claim to know your heart
.


Agreed, I've proven time and again in my own life that I don't always know whats best for me, so how can I possibly know whats best for others. I believe this maybe the only existence we get so I try to make peoples journey thru it as enjoyable as possible.


I no longer feel a panic to save the world before the Rapture, Judgment Day, thinking that it is around the corner, reading into Rev. Rather, I think that this is the day that the Lord has made, and I will rejoice and be glad. I will stay present in the now. I will trust that Christ's sacrifice did indeed take away the sin of the whole world, and all of us will find our way back to God, like Salmon swimming up stream. And rather than tell people about my religious views, I live them.
Attraction rather than promotion is usually the best policy, and seems to have the most benefit on those involved. (I'm not very pushy in the real world). :)

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Axioma

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But thanks for (yet again) proving my position about non's and anti's versus Christians. The usual suspects as it were.
You disgusting little man. Check out how many of the site's atheists and other assorted non-Christians have all argued against trying to deconvert anyone. But that doesn't conform to your deluded little persecution complex and your need to stereotype everyone who does not agree with you, does it?

In conclusion, you're a horrible human being and your tactics are spineless and revolting.
 
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Garyzenuf

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Interesting question because the two side’s answers would be different. I’ve heard Christian evangelizing likened to warning a motorist that they’re speeding towards a cliff (hell). So, obviously, for the Christian, not evangelizing would be immoral.

The atheist’s case is different. If you don’t “evangelize” your friend towards atheism, what is the result for him? Nothing. He remains Christian, is happily deluded, and experiences the same fate as you upon death, i.e., nothing.

So as I see it – the more strongly you believe your atheism, the less reason there is to convince anyone else of the truth of it. So I’d say, there’s no need to be untruthful about your atheistic beliefs, but at the same time, there’s no reason to “push it”. So go ahead and pull your punches, because there’s no reason or advantage to anyone to throw full punches, and as you said, it is kinder.



Yeah I just thought of that too, If I did try to dissuade him of his belief and was successful I would probably feel beholden to replace his happy, snuggly, content beliefs with what,... Richard Dawkins? Palease. :)

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Chesterton

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Yeah I just thought of that too, If I did try to dissuade him of his belief and was successful I would probably feel beholden to replace his happy, snuggly, content beliefs with what,... Richard Dawkins? Palease. :)

But isn't atheism the snuggliest belief of all? Live for self and pleasure, go to sleep peacefully forever, no consequences... ah, but that's another thread. :)
 
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Nathan45

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To answer the OP, it would depend on what kind of christian the Co-Worker was, if he seems happy in his faith i wouldn't bother, there's like 1000 flavors of christianity, anyways, and i think this post demonstrates it:

But isn't atheism the snuggliest belief of all? Live for self and pleasure, go to sleep peacefully forever, no consequences... ah, but that's another thread. :)

If you think atheism is a more "snuggly" belief than your own religion, i think i actually would try to deconvert you if you were my friend.

I don't think people ought to be living in that kind of unhealthy terror of their own God.

As for the person in the OP, since he seems happy i probably wouldn't bother. Also i'm a lot more shy about this kind of stuff in real life than on the internet...
 
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Garyzenuf

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But isn't atheism the snuggliest belief of all? Live for self and pleasure, go to sleep peacefully forever, no consequences... ah, but that's another thread. :)



You think Jesuses (sp) teachings are less snuggly than R. Dawkins, c'mon. ;)


I guess it was more his (My friends) contentment I didn't want to disrupt. I think for many people some of the allure to religous belief may be having a lot of unanswered life questions answered, whereas atheism has tended to put me more in the "I'm not sure about a lot of things" camp again. :)

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Chesterton

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I don't think people ought to be living in that kind of unhealthy terror of their own God.

It's healthy if it's true. It's only unhealthy it's it's false.

Wait, I take that back - it's also healthy if it's false.

Also i'm a lot more shy about this kind of stuff in real life than on the internet...

That's odd; why is that?
 
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Beanieboy

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No. I guess I'm just used to debating with people about God and religion from this forum and have thought twice about talking that into the real world where "winning" a debate may lead my friend from his new found happiness.


Agreed, I've proven time and again in my own life that I don't always know whats best for me, so how can I possibly know whats best for others. I believe this maybe the only existence we get so I try to make peoples journey thru it as enjoyable as possible.



Attraction rather than promotion is usually the best policy, and seems to have the most benefit on those involved. (I'm not very pushy in the real world). :)

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I shortened your post, but agree with everything that you have there. His religion is new, so he may not have all the answers, but your heart is in the right place, and sometimes, rather than trying to win an argument or debate, it is better to work as a team, and try to find the Truth, bouncing it off one another.

Any place that is hard for him will cause him to turn to the bible and look for and answer.

And most of the Christian friends that you debate say that they think you are a Christian? One can't even be a True Agnostic anymore, sheeesh.

My partner, on one of the occasions where we talked about our belief systems, said, "You know, I think you are Christian." I said," Why?? I'm Buddhist, and that is as close as I can describe it." He said, "You spend a lot of time on CF, you spend a lot of time in the Bible, you believe in God, and while you mention questioning Jesus, you often talk about him taking away the sins of the world."

And after thinking about it, it sometimes feels that way, as if I walked away from it, but not God, was led in a big circle, only to find myself back there, but looking at it from a completely different viewpoint, very radical ideas and beliefs, like I am seeing it with new eyes. It's void of anger, condemnation, not overly concerned with this or that sin, but loving others as yourself, etc.

In the meantime, I will stick with Buddhist, finding the label irrelevant to a point. and not be accused of not being a True Buddhist.

Any debate, argument you make with your friend will only make him stronger. If he seems a bit like a Jesus Freak, it will mellow, and if he is asking inappropriately about his new found religion, be a friend and tell him so.
 
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Nathan45

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It's healthy if it's true. It's only unhealthy it's it's false.

Wait, I take that back - it's also healthy if it's false.

Now, here's an interesting conundrum. you say "It's also healthy if it's false". Can you can define "healthy" in terms unrelated to either your religion or hedonism?

I'd disagree that it's healthy, obviously, but i'd be curious as to what criteria you are using.

That's odd; why is that?
I'm just like that, lol. it's less personal on the internet, i guess.
 
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Beanieboy

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is one of the big factors that you think that Christianity makes no sense, and don't want your friend to live in delusion?
Like, you think your friend is believing a lie, or being fooled?

There are many aspects of the religion that are bizarre:
Sending people to hell for and eternity for simply not believing in Jesus
God requiring a human sacrifice of someone who was sinless
In the Catholic church, all of the gore, Christ bleeding, the saints impaled, and it being so much about sacrifice and suffering, and that the main focus.
i could go on.
There are many things I don't understand, such as Luther's belief in predestination - God chooses who the HS moves to become saved, and who he does not, the HS alone able to open your heart, but for the unsaved, you are blamed for closing the door on God when it was never open.

There are also some really great Truths within it as well, though.
 
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Garyzenuf

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Then why feel the need to "dissuade" him?



Well, like I've said, I'm used to the debates about God and religion that go on at CF, not so much in the real world. So when it came to debating my friends new found faith I thought it would be immoral to try and push too hard with the atheistic beliefs I hold. (or lack thereof).

I choose his happiness over what I believe to be "true", and I was just wondering if other people here would have done the same. :)

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MaxP

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Well, like I've said, I'm used to the debates about God and religion that go on at CF, not so much in the real world. So when it came to debating my friends new found faith I thought it would be immoral to try and push too hard with the atheistic beliefs I hold. (or lack thereof).

I choose his happiness over what I believe to be "true", and I was just wondering if other people here would have done the same. :)

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That's good. He's found what he believes to be "true," God bless him.
 
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