Did the apostles continue to participate in Judasim?

[Wags]

Rather then hbijack another thread I thought I'd start this one.

Originally Posted by Charles YTK
Those Aposltes were not part of todays normative Christianity as you may think of it. They were Jewish men practicing Judaism, going to temple daily at the time of prayers and the daily oblations (sacrifices) taking part in the sacrifices just as they had before the resurrection.

You have made this assertion about the sacrifices on another thread Charles, but you have never supplied any Biblical proof of your allegations.

I happen to agree with Charles on this... even a casual reading of the book of Acts will show numerous examples that they did in fact continue to participate.

 

[HaNotsri]

I believe that the Jerusalem church (and the surrounding communities) maintained its Jewish character throughout the early decades of the church. I do not believe that when Paul was called to be a minister to the gentiles that he promoted observance of the Torah to the believers in the gentile nations. I believe that he introduced them to morals and ethics found in the Tan"kh and that he taught them about the Messiah and His mission, but I do not believe he introduced to them Torah observance. I believe Paul maintained his observance, but he had to speak to the non-Jewish nations in a way that was relevant to them. He even admitted that when he went to the Jews it was a Jew and when he went to the gentiles it was as a gentile.

 

[Charles YTK]

boink*

 

[Wags]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts2:46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple... [/FONT]
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Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts 20:16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...&NavBook=ac&NavGo=20&NavCurrentChapter=20#F93hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts 25:8 while he answered for himself, "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."[/FONT]
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[baraqemet]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts2:46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple... [/FONT]
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Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts 20:16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...&NavBook=ac&NavGo=20&NavCurrentChapter=20#F93hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Acts 25:8 while he answered for himself, "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."[/FONT]
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Not only is there no Scriptural proof that Paul or the Apostles sacrificed any animals at the temple, but there is Scriptural proof that Paul did not make the pilgrimage back to Jerusalem for the appointed feasts for a number of years.

 

[Wags]

Not only is there no Scriptural proof that Paul or the Apostles sacrificed any animals at the temple, but there is Scriptural proof that Paul did not make the pilgrimage back to Jerusalem for the appointed feasts for a number of years.

How could Paul claim not to have violated Torah or even the tradtions of the Fathers if he did not sacrifice? How could he complete a vow without sacrifice?

Do you have any scriptural proof that the apostles abandoned Torah?

 

[HaNotsri]

Not only is there no Scriptural proof that Paul or the Apostles sacrificed any animals at the temple

Acts 21 would disagree with you...

18 The next day Paul went with us to visit James; and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard it, they praised God. Then they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law. 21 They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 So do what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow. 24 Join these men, go through the rite of purification with them, and pay for the shaving of their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself observe and guard the law. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having purified himself, he entered the temple with them, making public the completion of the days of purification when the sacrifice would be made for each of them. 27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, who had seen him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd.

 

[baraqemet]

Acts 21 would disagree with you...

18 The next day Paul went with us to visit James; and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard it, they praised God. Then they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law. 21 They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 So do what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow. 24 Join these men, go through the rite of purification with them, and pay for the shaving of their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself observe and guard the law. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having purified himself, he entered the temple with them, making public the completion of the days of purification when the sacrifice would be made for each of them. 27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, who had seen him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd.

quote:

Did Paul or the apostles sacrifice animals at the temple? Many cite an event recorded in the book of acts as proof of this. Let’s see what the scriptures say:

Acts 21

23 Then do this, what we say to you: There are four men who have a vow on themselves;
24 taking these, be purified with them, and be at expense on them, that they may shave the head. And all shall know that all what they have been told about you is nothing, but you yourself walk orderly, keeping the Law.

The above passage does not state that Paul had taken a vow, and merely instructs him to purify himself with them. It should be noted that mikvah is a form of ritual purification that was done at the Temple. We should also note this event:

26 Then taking the men on the next day, having been purified with them, Paul went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them.
27 But when the seven days were about to be completed, having seen him in the temple, the Jews from Asia stirred up all the crowd, and they laid hands on him,
28 crying out, Men, Israelites, help! This is the man who teaches all everywhere against the people and the Law and this place. And even more, he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.
29 For they had before seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, whom they supposed that Paul brought into the temple.
30 And the whole city was moved, and there was a running together of people. And laying hands on Paul, they drew him outside of the temple, and at once the doors were shut.
31 But as they were seeking to kill him, a report came up to the chiliarch of the cohort, that all Jerusalem is in a tumult.
32 He at once ran down to them, taking soldiers and centurions. And seeing the chiliarch and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.
33 Then going near, the chiliarch laid hold of him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains. And he asked who he might be, and what he is doing.

From the above passage, we see that Paul was arrested on the seventh day. Let’s see what the scriptures say about a vow:

Numbers 6

10 And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Even the rabbinic writings such as the mishnah, although I do not like to reference them because they are anti christ in nature, also support the fact that the sacrifices for the vow are done on the eighth day. Even if it was Pauls intent to sacrifice (of which there is no definitive proof) God had a different plan. There is absolutely no Biblical proof that Paul or any of the apostles sacrificed animals at the temple after they became followers of Jesus. The former things were pointed out, only because the current teaching held by some, is that believers need to sacrifice because Paul did. I have heard that some are sacrificing Pesach lambs and such. There is no biblical account of him sacrificing, so it is merely just conjecture.

As far as people today thinking that there is a need to sacrifice still, let me remind you that all sacrifices were done under the supervision of the High Priest. Since Jesus is now the Great High Priest, you might want to consult with Him first, or take the time to re-read the book of Hebrews. Unless Jesus appears (and you better try the spirits) and tells you that you need to sacrifice (not much chance according to Hebrews) then it is totally off limits scripturally.

It should also be noted that the extra Biblical rabbinic writings talk of how the temple sacrifices were not accepted after the time of Christ's sacrifice (the string did no turn from crimson to white).Jesus paid the debt in full once and for all, and to say any different is to mock His finished work on the cross. (it is finished) Accept no substitute.

 

[baraqemet]

[FONT=&quot]Paul taught to give according to the heart, and not according to the Law, and that it was for the saints rather than for the priests.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Paul taught that believers need not be circumcised to be acceptable, but the Jews could according to their custom:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Paul instructed that Jesus, our Passover Lamb, was sacrificed for us.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you look at the Scriptures, you will find that on many occasions Paul did not go to Jerusalem where the Temple was located, which was the center of Jewish religion from Solomon's day until its destruction by the Romans in 70 C.E. This was the only place where sacrifices and certain other rituals of the Jewish religion could be performed, and where the sacrifices were performed every year for passover, which is one of the appointed feasts. [Exodus 12:14, Leviticus 23:5-8, and Deuteronomy 16:1-8; Also see Deuteronomy 16:16]

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]There are passages recorded in Scripture that show that Paul did not go to Jerusalem on one occasion for a three year period [Gal 1:17-18, 21-22], and another being fourteen years. [Gal 2:1] Paul spent about 18 months in Corinth on his second journey. He spent over 2 years at Ephesus. There were also many other times he was known to be journeying to or in, other cities.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
This clearly shows that the Apostle Paul did not attend many of the Biblically appointed feasts at the Temple during those years. [/FONT]

 

[HaNotsri]

10 And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Except you need to read the context of that verse. If you had, you'd realize that this sacrifice you mentioned above only takes place under on circumstance.

That circumstance is when the person who took the Nazirite vow came into contact with a dead body. You can clearly see this in the preceding verses. If he comes into contact with a dead body, then on the day of his purification (the Seventh Day), he must shave his head. Then on the Eighth Day (a day after the day of his purification) he offers up the sacrifices above and his previous vow is null because he became tumah. He would have his head rededicated and his vow would start anew.

However, the text explains later on what happens with just a regular nazir stating:

[bible] 13 "This is the ritual for the nazirite: On the day he completes the period of his dedication he shall go to the entrance of the meeting tent, 14 bringing as his offering to the LORD one unblemished yearling lamb for a holocaust, one unblemished yearling ewe lamb for a sin offering, one unblemished ram as a peace offering, along with their cereal offerings and libations, 15 and a basket of unleavened cakes of fine flour mixed with oil and of unleavened wafers spread with oil. 16 The priest shall present them before the LORD, and shall offer up the sin offering and the holocaust for him. 17 He shall then offer up the ram as a peace offering to the LORD, with its cereal offering and libation, and the basket of unleavened cakes. 18 Then at the entrance of the meeting tent the nazirite shall shave his dedicated head, collect the hair, and put it in the fire that is under the peace offering. 19 After the nazirite has shaved off his dedicated hair, the priest shall take a boiled shoulder of the ram, as well as one unleavened cake and one unleavened wafer from the basket, and shall place them in the hands of the nazirite. 20 The priest shall then wave them as a wave offering before the LORD. They become sacred and shall belong to the priest, along with the breast of the wave offering and the leg of the raised offering. Only after this may the nazirite drink wine. 21 "This, then, is the law for the nazirite; this is the offering to the LORD which is included in his vow of dedication apart from anything else which his means may allow. Thus shall he carry out the law of his dedication in keeping with the vow he has taken."[/bible]
All of this takes place on the day he completes his dedication (the Seventh Day).

 

[Charles YTK]

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[Charles YTK]

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[Charles YTK]

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[baraqemet]

You see the thing I really like about being Messianic is that I can demonstrate my beliefs directly from scripture. When you ask our detractors to prove their position from scripture, it is beyond them, because they can only Parrot what the Chruch fathers have said. Thiers is a religion of traditions built on man made doctrines. I have been challenged 4 times now about the early church maintaining their connection to Jewish practices and temple service and have provided evidence of such. When the detractors are challenged to prove that the Apostles did not take part in these things or that they taught other to abandon the temple there is only silence.

Sometimes silence speaks volumes does it not?

[FONT=&quot]You avoid confronting the facts supplied and then pridefully stand there as if you have proved something? Did Paul preach tithing- yes or no. Did Paul enforce circumcision- yes or no. Did Paul attend the Biblically appointed feasts as prescribed in the Torah-yes or no? Do you have any Biblical proof that Paul and the apostles sacrificed animals- yes or no? When you can answer these supplying Biblical proof, then I will extend the list[/FONT]
.

[FONT=&quot]From the Hebrew Scriptures or TaNaKh [OT] on tithing:
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nehemiah 10:37 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Compared to what Paul taught.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Circumcision[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: Leviticus 12:3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul taught that believers need not be circumcised to be acceptable, but the Jews could according to the custom:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 7 :18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. 3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Charles YTK]

boink*

 

[Charles YTK]

boink*

 

[Sephania]

I believe that the Jerusalem church (and the surrounding communities) maintained its Jewish character throughout the early decades of the church. I do not believe that when Paul was called to be a minister to the gentiles that he promoted observance of the Torah to the believers in the gentile nations. I believe that he introduced them to morals and ethics found in the Tan"kh and that he taught them about the Messiah and His mission, but I do not believe he introduced to them Torah observance. I believe Paul maintained his observance, but he had to speak to the non-Jewish nations in a way that was relevant to them. He even admitted that when he went to the Jews it was a Jew and when he went to the gentiles it was as a gentile.

I wonder then why the Early Church ( around 300CE) had to make rules, or laws that you couldn't observe Passover or eat Kosher or keep the Sabbath if this was not being done by the Gentile believers already?

 

[HaNotsri]

baraqemet said:
10 And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Except you need to read the context of that verse. If you had, you'd realize that this sacrifice you mentioned above only takes place under on circumstance.

That circumstance is when the person who took the Nazirite vow came into contact with a dead body. You can clearly see this in the preceding verses. If he comes into contact with a dead body, then on the day of his purification (the Seventh Day), he must shave his head. Then on the Eighth Day (a day after the day of his purification) he offers up the sacrifices above and his previous vow is null because he became tumah. He would have his head rededicated and his vow would start anew.

However, the text explains later on what happens with just a regular nazir stating:

13This is the ritual for the nazirite: On the day he completes the period of his dedication he shall go to the entrance of the meeting tent, 14 bringing as his offering to the LORD one unblemished yearling lamb for a holocaust, one unblemished yearling ewe lamb for a sin offering, one unblemished ram as a peace offering, along with their cereal offerings and libations, 15 and a basket of unleavened cakes of fine flour mixed with oil and of unleavened wafers spread with oil. 16 The priest shall present them before the LORD, and shall offer up the sin offering and the holocaust for him. 17 He shall then offer up the ram as a peace offering to the LORD, with its cereal offering and libation, and the basket of unleavened cakes. 18 Then at the entrance of the meeting tent the nazirite shall shave his dedicated head, collect the hair, and put it in the fire that is under the peace offering. 19 After the nazirite has shaved off his dedicated hair, the priest shall take a boiled shoulder of the ram, as well as one unleavened cake and one unleavened wafer from the basket, and shall place them in the hands of the nazirite. 20 The priest shall then wave them as a wave offering before the LORD. They become sacred and shall belong to the priest, along with the breast of the wave offering and the leg of the raised offering. Only after this may the nazirite drink wine. 21 "This, then, is the law for the nazirite; this is the offering to the LORD which is included in his vow of dedication apart from anything else which his means may allow. Thus shall he carry out the law of his dedication in keeping with the vow he has taken.

All of this takes place on the day he completes his dedication (the Seventh Day).

 

[Charles YTK]

boink*