Did Mary need to nudge Jesus?

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In the wedding feast of Cana story Jesus turns water into wine and saves the honour of the bride and bridegroom on their special day. It was Mary that identified the need "they have no wine". Jesus reply was "woman why do you involve me, my time is not yet come." The reply seemed to indicate a reluctance on the part of Jesus to perform such a public miracle that would effectively catapult his ministry into the public eye and start a sequence of events that would lead to the cross.

The biggest question I have from this passage is thus this. Did God set the time for Jesus to accelerate his ministry with such public miracles through his mother. Why did Jesus apparently not know until he was nudged that the time was right for a miracle?
 

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In the wedding feast of Cana story Jesus turns water into wine and saves the honour of the bride and bridegroom on their special day. It was Mary that identified the need "they have no wine". Jesus reply was "woman why do you involve me, my time is not yet come." The reply seemed to indicate a reluctance on the part of Jesus to perform such a public miracle that would effectively catapult his ministry into the public eye and start a sequence of events that would lead to the cross.

The biggest question I have from this passage is thus this. Did God set the time for Jesus to accelerate his ministry with such public miracles through his mother. Why did Jesus apparently not know until he was nudged that the time was right for a miracle?
Awesome question! For me to explain my answer I have to ask you:

1. Do you believe that Jesus in his earthly body, had all the physical limitations of an earthly man and limited himself of His divine omniscience thus depending entirely of the Father through His Spirit for His knowledge. Whew! That was a mouthful.

Or

2. Did Jesus still have all His divine attributes (omnipotence, omniscience, ect).
 
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NonTheologian

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In the wedding feast of Cana story Jesus turns water into wine and saves the honour of the bride and bridegroom on their special day. It was Mary that identified the need "they have no wine". Jesus reply was "woman why do you involve me, my time is not yet come." The reply seemed to indicate a reluctance on the part of Jesus to perform such a public miracle that would effectively catapult his ministry into the public eye and start a sequence of events that would lead to the cross.

The biggest question I have from this passage is thus this. Did God set the time for Jesus to accelerate his ministry with such public miracles through his mother. Why did Jesus apparently not know until he was nudged that the time was right for a miracle?

Apparently Arius used John 2:4 as a proof text against Christ's divinity, claiming that if He really were God then he wouldn't be subject to do certain things at specific times.

I believe that certain Church Fathers have a different view of this text. Theophylact (perhaps following John Chyrsostom) notes that Jesus is pressed to provide wine twice: once by His mother (2:3) and, after He seems to refuse, again by the servants (2:5-7). "If a man performs a miracle at the request of a family member," he writes, "the bystanders who witness the miracle might suspect that it had been pre-arranged. But when the one in need of help makes the request, there is less cause for suspicion." He also comments: "Note well, O reader, that the Lord does not flatly ignore His mother's request. After scolding her mildly, He does what she wanted Him to do. Honoring her thus, He showed us how we should reverence our parents."
 
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Awesome question! For me to explain my answer I have to ask you:

1. Do you believe that Jesus in his earthly body, had all the physical limitations of an earthly man and limited himself of His divine omniscience thus depending entirely of the Father through His Spirit for His knowledge. Whew! That was a mouthful.

Or

2. Did Jesus still have all His divine attributes (omnipotence, omniscience, ect).

Both! The incarnation implies fully God, fully man in the same Person. The extent to which the self consciousness and connection of Jesus to the Divine will was limited in his earthly existence is I suppose the deeper question here. Prayers like John 17 indicate he spoke directly to God, events like the Transfiguration confirm that. When confronted by his mother and Joseph about his extended stay in the temple aged 12 he said "did you not know I would be in my Fathers house". He knew God and his will.

But does this incident indicate that sometimes he heard his Fathers voice through the events and people around Him rather than just directly as an inner voice? So is it possible that the reluctance he expressed to turning up the volume of his ministry with public miracles was overturned by the need of the occasion and the voice of Mary and that God was talking through both.

Either way Jesus always did what was right and acted in accordance with the Fathers will
 
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Noxot

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In the wedding feast of Cana story Jesus turns water into wine and saves the honour of the bride and bridegroom on their special day. It was Mary that identified the need "they have no wine". Jesus reply was "woman why do you involve me, my time is not yet come." The reply seemed to indicate a reluctance on the part of Jesus to perform such a public miracle that would effectively catapult his ministry into the public eye and start a sequence of events that would lead to the cross.

The biggest question I have from this passage is thus this. Did God set the time for Jesus to accelerate his ministry with such public miracles through his mother. Why did Jesus apparently not know until he was nudged that the time was right for a miracle?

because he is fully human and fully God. let me add this bible verse quote:

John 3:5-8 (YLT)
Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'


that verse explains it.
 
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mindlight

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Apparently Arius used John 2:4 as a proof text against Christ's divinity, claiming that if He really were God then he wouldn't be subject to do certain things at specific times.

I believe that certain Church Fathers have a different view of this text. Theophylact (perhaps following John Chyrsostom) notes that Jesus is pressed to provide wine twice: once by His mother (2:3) and, after He seems to refuse, again by the servants (2:5-7). "If a man performs a miracle at the request of a family member," he writes, "the bystanders who witness the miracle might suspect that it had been pre-arranged. But when the one in need of help makes the request, there is less cause for suspicion." He also comments: "Note well, O reader, that the Lord does not flatly ignore His mother's request. After scolding her mildly, He does what she wanted Him to do. Honoring her thus, He showed us how we should reverence our parents."

Not sure this could be used as a proof text for a creaturely view of Christ without ignoring the incarnation.

You are right that while made aware by Mary he only acted when the need was made obvious by those responsible.

He seemed to have had a reluctance to perform a miracle. But honouring his mother and meeting the need of the occasion appear to have overthrown that reluctance. In that sense did God use Mary to nudge Jesus into his ministry having previously told Him to wait until the right time before doing so?

It is a mother that gives birth at the time her body dictates. Was this also a kind of birth of ministry? Mary had to be the one that set the time because of the human limitations that Christ had been set as God with us in human form
 
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Noxot

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John 2:1-11 (YLT)
And the third day a marriage happened in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there, and also Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage; and wine having failed, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, `Wine they have not;' Jesus saith to her, `What--to me and to thee, woman? not yet is mine hour come.' His mother saith to the ministrants, `Whatever he may say to you--do.' And there were there six water-jugs of stone, placed according to the purifying of the Jews, holding each two or three measures. Jesus saith to them, `Fill the water-jugs with water;' and they filled them--unto the brim; and he saith to them, `Draw out, now, and bear to the director of the apartment;' and they bare. And as the director of the apartment tasted the water become wine, and knew not whence it is, (but the ministrants knew, who have drawn the water,) the director of the feast doth call the bridegroom, and saith to him, `Every man, at first, the good wine doth set forth; and when they may have drunk freely, then the inferior; thou didst keep the good wine till now.' This beginning of the signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him;


this does seem to be a spiritual explanation of the transition of the flesh to the spirit. it seems to be talking about certain parts of the heavenly hierarchy that reside in the heaven as opposed to the heaven of heavens. the higher archangels knew jesus but the lowest ranks had some forms of ignorance even though they in the end, if they are not evil, give their nations to jesus, such as in the dream paul had of a certain angel asking him for help. ofc there is war in the heaven as some of those spirits are confused. mary is the figure for the heaven of heavens because the holy of holies is where Jesus would be. it is really hard for me to try to comprehend this on a spiritual level though I know other teachers have said some things about it. for instance one saint said that the 6 stone jugs are the hearts of men or the holy scriptures and they always have at least 2 or 3 meanings, i.e. they always have a soulish and a spiritual meaning and if there is a third measure then it also has an fleshly manner of understanding it.

but i'm not quite sure what the deal is with the interaction of mary and Jesus was in this case. i don't know what kind of applicable spiritual understanding could be drawn out of it. from just existing as a human and being spiritual everything is what it is, working perfectly in a harmony of grace and freedom but I don't understand the deeper more hidden meanings of such things. hopefully someone else could explain it.

maybe spiritually jesus did such because it is beneath that image of the holy virgin to act in such a manner... as in a more perfect expression of her in the gospels is this verse:

Luke 1:26-38 (YLT)
And in the sixth month was the messenger Gabriel sent by God, to a city of Galilee, the name of which is Nazareth, to a virgin, betrothed to a man, whose name is Joseph, of the house of David, and the name of the virgin is Mary. And the messenger having come in unto her, said, `Hail, favoured one, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women;' and she, having seen, was troubled at his word, and was reasoning of what kind this salutation may be. And the messenger said to her, `Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God; and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus; he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father, and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.' And Mary said unto the messenger, `How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?' And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God; and lo, Elisabeth, thy kinswoman, she also hath conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month to her who was called barren; because nothing shall be impossible with God.' And Mary said, `Lo, the maid-servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to thy saying,' and the messenger went away from her.

it would seem like if the virgin is the water then Christ is the wine. and the inferior wines compared to the wine of Christ is prob the level of spiritual goodness of the soul of Jesus compared to someone who is still spiritual such as the souls of the other prophets. and knowing reality it was Christianity that reached the masses of the world whilst the OT was limited for the most part to the jewish nation. but mary was near enough to Jesus that he did what she asked, maybe others would not have been able to get Jesus to do certain things due to the lack of faith that they might have, as we see that Jesus kind of seemed to need us to have faith in him in order that some types of miracles occur or in order for some types of evil spirits to be cast out.

and yeah the virgin mary is needed in order that Christ may come, which is something that must happen within each of us. cause mary is like a purer state of soul, which that is linked to the 6 stone jugs that the jews used for purification. because ofc the waters of purification turn to wine by a miracle. so it is kind of like a feminine and a masculine aspect of the same thing. because God will not save us unless we are also willing to be saved. he does not force himself upon us. he desires a loving response, a reaching towards him.
 
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Both! The incarnation implies fully God, fully man in the same Person. The extent to which the self consciousness and connection of Jesus to the Divine will was limited in his earthly existence is I suppose the deeper question here. Prayers like John 17 indicate he spoke directly to God, events like the Transfiguration confirm that. When confronted by his mother and Joseph about his extended stay in the temple aged 12 he said "did you not know I would be in my Fathers house". He knew God and his will.

But does this incident indicate that sometimes he heard his Fathers voice through the events and people around Him rather than just directly as an inner voice? So is it possible that the reluctance he expressed to turning up the volume of his ministry with public miracles was overturned by the need of the occasion and the voice of Mary and that God was talking through both.

Either way Jesus always did what was right and acted in accordance with the Fathers will
Ok, you are catching on. Now ask yourself, "How do I know when the Holy Spirit is Speaking to me?".
 
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Tigger45

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In the wedding feast of Cana story Jesus turns water into wine and saves the honour of the bride and bridegroom on their special day. It was Mary that identified the need "they have no wine". Jesus reply was "woman why do you involve me, my time is not yet come." The reply seemed to indicate a reluctance on the part of Jesus to perform such a public miracle that would effectively catapult his ministry into the public eye and start a sequence of events that would lead to the cross.

The biggest question I have from this passage is thus this. Did God set the time for Jesus to accelerate his ministry with such public miracles through his mother. Why did Jesus apparently not know until he was nudged that the time was right for a miracle?
I think it's because Jesus always puts an eternal perspective first. He uses temporal situations typically as a teaching opportunity to an eternal truth.
 
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In the wedding feast of Cana story Jesus turns water into wine and saves the honour of the bride and bridegroom on their special day. It was Mary that identified the need "they have no wine". Jesus reply was "woman why do you involve me, my time is not yet come." The reply seemed to indicate a reluctance on the part of Jesus to perform such a public miracle that would effectively catapult his ministry into the public eye and start a sequence of events that would lead to the cross.

The biggest question I have from this passage is thus this. Did God set the time for Jesus to accelerate his ministry with such public miracles through his mother. Why did Jesus apparently not know until he was nudged that the time was right for a miracle?
There's a couple of similar examples. He told His brothers in the flesh He wouldn't go to the feast for the same reason, then He went. Same at the treasury. (John 7 and 8).

So, Mary not the key, just like her other sons are not the key.

Miracles will attract attention. He just wants to be sure to remain in God's time, not getting arrested/killed apart from that.
 
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The biggest question I have from this passage is thus this. Did God set the time for Jesus to accelerate his ministry with such public miracles through his mother. Why did Jesus apparently not know until he was nudged that the time was right for a miracle?

Why? We ask God why? We ask Jesus why? We question the account? Why?

God ordained it, Jesus did it, the scriptures record it, and that settles it.
 
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In the wedding feast of Cana story Jesus turns water into wine and saves the honour of the bride and bridegroom on their special day. It was Mary that identified the need "they have no wine". Jesus reply was "woman why do you involve me, my time is not yet come." The reply seemed to indicate a reluctance on the part of Jesus to perform such a public miracle that would effectively catapult his ministry into the public eye and start a sequence of events that would lead to the cross.

The biggest question I have from this passage is thus this. Did God set the time for Jesus to accelerate his ministry with such public miracles through his mother. Why did Jesus apparently not know until he was nudged that the time was right for a miracle?

No, because Jesus Christ is God incarnate; what we see herenis an example of "Ask, and ye shall receive." He is perfect and does not scorn our requests for assistance.
 
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Ok, you are catching on. Now ask yourself, "How do I know when the Holy Spirit is Speaking to me?".

Yes I suppose a practical consequence of this passage is to consider how God might be nudging us today. Jesus is our example in this. What this passage tells me then is that sometimes he may do this through other members of the church and through the needs of which he makes me aware. It is my decision to act or not but that decision if a kind of opening up to Gods grace and the possibility of unique miracles in unique circumstances.
 
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mindlight

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I think it's because Jesus always puts an eternal perspective first. He uses temporal situations typically as a teaching opportunity to an eternal truth.

But there is nothing in this passage that indicates that Jesus was aware that it was time for a change of policy on his part before Mary nudged him to this. Indeed he contradicts the implication of Marys statement by suggesting that she should not involve him and it was not yet his time. So this does not look like Jesus with full knowledge using the circumstances as a teaching aid. This looks like Jesus himself hearing the Fathers voice in the circumstances and launching into a new phase of his ministry which he was previously reluctant to engage in. This was the right action , at the right time in the right place but how Jesus Himself came to understand that this was the time to act seems to have been in communication with the wider body of believers.
 
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mindlight

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Why? We ask God why? We ask Jesus why? We question the account? Why?

God ordained it, Jesus did it, the scriptures record it, and that settles it.

Asking why is asking for understanding of the God we worship and how He works in our lives. We are children of God not slaves, born of the free woman not the slave woman.
 
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No, because Jesus Christ is God incarnate; what we see herenis an example of "Ask, and ye shall receive." He is perfect and does not scorn our requests for assistance.

But maybe even when he had purposed not to act he can be persuaded to act by the pleas of the saints. It is love that governs his actions not a fixed project plan.
 
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But maybe even when he had purposed not to act he can be persuaded to act by the pleas of the saints. It is love that governs his actions not a fixed project plan.

Perhaps, yes
 
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Tigger45

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But there is nothing in this passage that indicates that Jesus was aware that it was time for a change of policy on his part before Mary nudged him to this. Indeed he contradicts the implication of Marys statement by suggesting that she should not involve him and it was not yet his time. So this does not look like Jesus with full knowledge using the circumstances as a teaching aid. This looks like Jesus himself hearing the Fathers voice in the circumstances and launching into a new phase of his ministry which he was previously reluctant to engage in. This was the right action , at the right time in the right place but how Jesus Himself came to understand that this was the time to act seems to have been in communication with the wider body of believers.
But we all know that the Father and the Son are one and that Jesus came to do the will of His Father. But for Jesus to do the will of His mother is highly likely the will of His Father. In fact honoring your father and your mother is explicit within the Ten Commandments. Looks like all lights were green to go.
 
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Awesome question! For me to explain my answer I have to ask you:

1. Do you believe that Jesus in his earthly body, had all the physical limitations of an earthly man and limited himself of His divine omniscience thus depending entirely of the Father through His Spirit for His knowledge. Whew! That was a mouthful.

Or

2. Did Jesus still have all His divine attributes (omnipotence, omniscience, ect).

That doesn't really answer the question. I don't believe the material meat-based brain Jesus carried around in His head was capable of holding all knowledge of the entire universe, past, present, and future at one time. However, I do believe from other scriptures that Jesus started each day with knowledge through the Holy Spirit everything He was to encounter and to do for at least that day--He did nothing he was not first shown by the Father.

So I'm fully convinced Jesus knew when He arose that morning that He'd be turning water into wine. He also knew He'd have that bit of verbal interplay with His mother.
 
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I think it's because Jesus always puts an eternal perspective first. He uses temporal situations typically as a teaching opportunity to an eternal truth.

And this applied as well to the Canaanite (or Syro-Phoencian) woman. When Jesus stated that His blessings were for the children of Abraham, the temporal perspective was that "children of Abraham" denoted a physical blood lineage. But as Paul points out in Romans, from the eternal perspective one becomes a child of Abraham through faith in Christ.

Jesus used that temporal situation as a teaching opportunity when He said first that He was for the children of Abraham and then gave of Himself to the woman explicitly because of her faith. He didn't change His mind, He was teaching an eternal point.
 
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