Demon possession was EXTREMELY common in Matt. and Mark

[Ian Ferrin]

I have heard some in Christian Psychology espouse that demon possession is extremely rare.

I believe the Bible shows that demon possession was extremely common in Jesus' time. See my references below, but a key verse for me is Mark 1:39: "He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out demons." I believe the record of Jesus' early ministry in Matt. and Mark show that Jesus did three things in virtually every village he entered: he healed the sick, he cast out demons and then he preached.

I DON'T believe the world has changed that much since Jesus' day. My opinion is that the demon possessed of the Bible are the same people we would now characterize as schizophrenic's and others with psychotic disorders. These folks are a little less that 2% of the entire population. So in a village of say, 100 persons, Jesus would have usually encountered about 2 nonfunctional psychotic persons. That completely fits the Biblical narrative

A single verse, Matt. 4:24, states that Jesus healed the demon possessed. All the other verses say that Jesus cast out the demons.

Based on Matt. 4:24 an argument can be made that Jesus was really healing the mentally ill, and not really casting out demons. The theological problem, IMO, is that all the other verses say Jesus and his disciples were 'casting out demons'. The Bible says that Jesus cast out demons in virtually every village he entered. The Bible sure seems to say to me that demon possession was common... virtually everywhere and in every village.

Are the psychotically mentally ill of today the 'demon possessed' of the Bible?


Matthew 4:24
Matt 8:16
Matt 10:8
Mark 1:32
Mark 1:34a He healed many who were sick with various diseases and cast out many demons.
Mark 1:39 He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out demons.
Mark 3:15
Mark 6:13

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I have heard some in Christian Psychology espouse that demon possession is extremely rare.

I believe the Bible shows that demon possession was extremely common in Jesus' time. See my references below, but a key verse for me is Mark 1:39: "He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out demons." I believe the record of Jesus' early ministry in Matt. and Mark show that Jesus did three things in virtually every village he entered: he healed the sick, he cast out demons and then he preached.

I DON'T believe the world has changed that much since Jesus' day. My opinion is that the demon possessed of the Bible are the same people we would now characterize as schizophrenic's and others with psychotic disorders. These folks are a little less that 2% of the entire population. So in a village of say, 100 persons, Jesus would have usually encountered about 2 nonfunctional psychotic persons. That completely fits the Biblical narrative

A single verse, Matt. 4:24, states that Jesus healed the demon possessed. All the other verses say that Jesus cast out the demons.

Based on Matt. 4:24 an argument can be made that Jesus was really healing the mentally ill, and not really casting out demons. The theological problem, IMO, is that all the other verses say Jesus and his disciples were 'casting out demons'. The Bible says that Jesus cast out demons in virtually every village he entered. The Bible sure seems to say to me that demon possession was common... virtually everywhere and in every village.

Are the psychotically mentally ill of today the 'demon possessed' of the Bible?


Matthew 4:24
Matt 8:16
Matt 10:8
Mark 1:32
Mark 1:34a He healed many who were sick with various diseases and cast out many demons.
Mark 1:39 He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out demons.
Mark 3:15
Mark 6:13

Every disease was considered a demonic form of possession. Here is an interesting read in the Jewish Encyclopedia on " demonology". Specifically addressing this post is under the heading "Nature of demons". Blessings.

DEMONOLOGY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Ian Ferrin]

Every disease was considered a demonic form of possession.

That is really not clear in the Matt and Mark texts. Why is there a clear distinction between healing the sick and casting out demons?

In your referenced article there is no mention of possession. I don't argue that folks probably thought various diseases were demonically influenced. But I really don't think the 'demon possession' of Matt and Mark is addressed by the article.

I'd also like to know how you answer my main question: Are the psychotically mentally ill of today the 'demon possessed' of the Bible?

Peace, Ian

 

[Maria Billingsley]

That is really not clear in the Matt and Mark texts. Why is there a clear distinction between healing the sick and casting out demons?

In your referenced article there is no mention of possession. I don't argue that folks probably thought various diseases were demonically influenced. But I really don't think the 'demon possession' of Matt and Mark is addressed by the article.

I'd also like to know how you answer my main question: Are the psychotically mentally ill of today the 'demon possessed' of the Bible?

Peace, Ian

Yes , but this is purely my opinion. There is no mention of possession because everything was attributed to demons. This is also the Jewish point of view at the time , not mine.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

Yes , but this is purely my opinion. There is no mention of possession because everything was attributed to demons. This is also the Jewish point of view at the time , not mine.

I'm not following you. If everything was attributed to demons, why do Matthew and Mark make a clear distinction between healing the sick and casting out demons?

Does your 'yes' mean you agree the psychotically mentally ill of today are, by and large, the 'demon possessed' of the bible?

In my lived experience, unmedicated psychotic folk, are truly in a class by themselves. They can be wild, dangerous, unmanageable and usually can't function. I believe these are the folk Matt. and Mark were talking about. IE they were in a separate category from other diseases. And they weren't viewed a sick, but as possessed. Would you disagree?

Peace, Ian

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm not following you. If everything was attributed to demons, why do Matthew and Mark make a clear distinction between healing the sick and casting out demons?

Does your 'yes' mean you agree the psychotically mentally ill of today are, by and large, the 'demon possessed' of the bible?

In my lived experience, unmedicated psychotic folk, are truly in a class by themselves. They can be wild, dangerous, unmanageable and usually can't function. I believe these are the folk Matt. and Mark were talking about. IE they were in a separate category from other diseases. And they weren't viewed a sick, but as possessed. Would you disagree?

Peace, Ian

Just because they make a distinction does not mean they did not think the cause was by demons.

 

[NBB]

Jesus was outside what erroneous people may have thought at the time, is not like he is not the creator of science itself.
So if Jesus expulsed demons all the time, today it should be the same. Or worse since wickedness will increase says the bible, and when there is more wickedness there is more demons.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

The world population in 1AD was 200m, now its almost 8 billion. The number of demons hasnt increased. The same number that could be considered fairly common among 200m could indeed be considered fairly rare among 8bn.

 

[NBB]

Demons operate more if people gives them authority, today people are calling good evil and evil good, and seeing witchcraft and the occult as something funny or fashion, today people have the same problems or worse of what it was in the bible.
Thing is they like to hide, they are experts at fooling people they are not there, and only when confronted by the power of God they do the 'theatrics' like in the bible.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

Just because they make a distinction does not mean they did not think the cause was by demons.

I'm not following you. Matt. and Mark calls them 'demon possessed'. Of course the demon possession of Matt. and Mark was believed to be caused by demons. You've argued every malady was seen as demon influenced. And I think you may be right. But I think even Matt. and Mark believed the folks described were actually demon 'possessed'. They themselves might have believed many sicknesses were demon influenced. But that's not what they wrote. They wrote that Jesus healed the sick and cast out demons. Separately. Two different things. They wrote that and it's now God's word.

Again, do you think the psychotically mentally ill of today are the 'demon possessed' of the Bible?

 

[Ian Ferrin]

The number of demons hasnt increased.

Is that in the Bible?

You raise an interesting point that I hadn't considered. Thanks.

 

[NBB]

i hope my post don't get removed or something because i am not speaking anything strange, is a touchy subject for sure, and i hope i am not breaking rules, if people watch inappropriate content for example even christians after some time its most probably they will have some evil spirits of lust in them, there is a debate of what it means to be demon possessed, but even if its not possession like when a demon takes controls of the whole person they still have an area of the person where the evil spirits are there, doing something inside, and need to be cast out.

I know about this, i was a slave to inappropriate content for years until i was set free by God, it has been years since i watched anything of that trash, even when i got angry at myself, furious even, i couldn't stop doing it, when God breaks the enslavement to sin and the evil spirits go, you again are able to choose to not do it and be free.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

The number of demons hasnt increased.

God and Jesus can communicate with multiple persons at the same time. Do you have any evidence Satan and demons can't do the same thing?

 

[joymercy]

Ian, what may be missing here is that its not always one way or the other.

Many people are ill from the natural law and can be treated with anti psychotic meds.

However, many of these same people need spiritual healing as well.

They need BOTH medication and deliverance prayers.

Father Ripperger wrote at length all about this in his book The Science of Mental Health.

IN the bible, I do believe that Jesus healed them in full from all their ailments, both physical and spiritual.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

IN the bible, I do believe that Jesus healed them in full from all their ailments, both physical and spiritual.

Thanks very much joymercy. I do not have all the answers. I fully admit that. I suppose my main focus is to simply expose that the demon possessed of Matt. and Mark are basically the psychotically mentally ill of today. They're the same about 2% of the population. It seems like you agree with this?

I believe anti psychotic meds are a great thing. Many schizophrenic and other psychotic folk can function more normally and sometimes even hold down jobs. I am not attacking psychiatry and psychology in general.

I don't think this issue has ever truly been addressed by our 'Christian Psychology'. Christian psychology on the rare occasions that they even talk about it, says that demon possession is rare. But that just doesn't square with the Bible. Have you EVER seen them incorporate the story of Jesus' ministry? Jesus went throughout Galilee and encountered the demon possessed in every small village he entered. That completely squares with the notion that he was encountering the about 2% of the population that we now describe as psychotically, non-functional mentally ill.

The big theological problem is that the Bible describes these folks as 'demon possessed'. Jesus healed the sick and cast out demons. That's just what Jesus did.

I don't know what happens to the demons when their hosts take psych meds. Do the meds cast out the demons? I don't know. In my youth, I worked as an orderly in a psych hospital for 10 years. Certainly when a psychotic person goes off their meds, they invariably revert to full on psychosis.

I think the Church and 'Christian psychology', have their heads buried in the sand on this issue. I don't believe anyone has theologically reconciled the very common 'demon possession' of Matt and Mark with our current mental health understanding. Are you aware of anyone tackling this issue head on? I also think that by not addressing the issue, as Christians, we're probably abdicating authority over the mind to secular institutions.

Jesus did not abdicate anything. He cast out the demons!

Do you believe the psychotically mentally ill of today are the 'demon possessed' of the Bible?

Peace, Ian

 

[Ian Ferrin]

So if Jesus expulsed demons all the time, today it should be the same.

The comparison is muddied by the fact that almost all the psychotically mentally ill today are medicated. On meds, they are more functional and coherent than they would have been in Jesus' time.

But I believe the psychotically mentally ill of today are the 'demon possessed' of Matthew and Mark. Read my above posts. Do you disagree on a theological basis?

Peace, Ian

 

[Lost Witness]

Demon possession is just as common now as it was then,
We just call it something else and prescribe medication



May The LORD Bless You and Keep You




Shalom Aleichem

 

[NBB]

The comparison is muddied by the fact that almost all the psychotically mentally ill today are medicated. On meds, they are more functional and coherent than they would have been in Jesus' time.

But I believe the psychotically mentally ill of today are the 'demon possessed' of Matthew and Mark. Read my above posts. Do you disagree on a theological basis?

Peace, Ian

Unless is sickness of the brain etc, then all the rest imho are people with spiritual problems. What doctors 'forget' is that we have a soul that can be affected by lots of things, and that the spiritual realm exists.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

Unless is sickness of the brain etc, then all the rest imho are people with spiritual problems.

They certainly have spiritual problems. I believe the psychotically mentally ill of today are the 'demon possessed' of the Bible. You seem to saying Matthew and Mark were wrong in their characterizations?

 

[Ian Ferrin]

Meds don't cast out demons. They heal and stabilize a patient.

While I partially agree with much of what you say, I think you're wrong about psych meds 'healing' psychotic folks. The meds treat. They don't heal. If a psychotic person goes off their meds, they invariably revert to full on psychosis.

Personally, I don't know if Meds cast out demons or not. I'm not advocating exorcism. I think the Church needs to make an honest exploration of how Jesus casting out demons compares with modern psychotic folk. And I don't think this has ever really been done. I think most in the church believe demon possession is rare. I don't believe that and I think I've made a pretty good case.

Has anyone in the thread addressed my comparison with biblical arguments? What I'm seeing is well meaning opinions based on the Bible and also Psychiatry/Psychology. What I'm not seeing are arguments for or against my comparison based on the Bible.

Peace, Ian