"Debunking the ‘Virgin Birth’ Myth"

[Heterodoxus]

"A new study from North Carolina claimed to turn up 45 recent ‘virgin births’ in the U.S. Maybe the Virgin Mary wasn’t the only one?"

Debunking the Virgin Birth Myth - The Daily Beast

 

[Der Alte]

"A new study from North Carolina claimed to turn up 45 recent ‘virgin births’ in the U.S. Maybe the Virgin Mary wasn’t the only one?"

Debunking the Virgin Birth Myth - The Daily Beast

Don't believe everything you read on some random website.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Don't believe everything you read on some random website.

Or believe that the title tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

[Heterodoxus]

Don't believe everything you read on some random website.

Nor should one disbelieve information seen via online NEWS sources that might contradict/disagree with their preferred religious beliefs. Moreover, The Daily Beast isn't "some random website," and is a frequent cited resource for some major TV NEWS organizations (FOX, CNN, and the like).

 

[DrBubbaLove]

This is what happens when people who do not know what they are talking about attempt to reach conclusions or draw parallels they want to see from teachings they obviously do not understand..

Mary's conception was by her mother and father in the very normal sense and as such is in NO WAY a virgin birth.

The "conception" in "Immaculate Conception" is not a reference to the manner in which the baby is made. It has to do with the protection given that child by God's Grace in preparing a place for our Lord.

And it would not take a credible news source very long to find that info if they bothered to verify the story first.

 

[Sayre]

This is what happens when people who do not know what they are talking about attempt to reach conclusions or draw parallels they want to see from teachings they obviously do not understand..

Mary's conception was by her mother and father in the very normal sense and as such is in NO WAY a virgin birth.

The "conception" in "Immaculate Conception" is not a reference to the manner in which the baby is made. It has to do with the protection given that child by God's Grace in preparing a place for our Lord.

And it would not take a credible news source very long to find that info if they bothered to verify the story first.

Is that orthodox catholic belief? I had no idea they were so ... reasonable.

 

[Der Alte]

Nor should one disbelieve information seen via online NEWS sources that might contradict/disagree with their preferred religious beliefs. Moreover, The Daily Beast isn't "some random website," and is a frequent cited resource for some major TV NEWS organizations (FOX, CNN, and the like).

My preferred religious beliefs? What are yours? Strange! I have never heard of The Daily Beast until I read your post. I browsed that piece of trash. Here is some of the stuff you are willing to trash the Bible with. No empirical evidence of virgin births, only that the teenage subjects claimed they were virgins when they became pregnant.

Using a very large data set of 7,870 once-teenage young women who were followed prospectively for 14 years, they found that 45 women, or .5 percent of the 5,340 women who became pregnant during the study period, reported that they were still virgins at the time of their pregnancy. Call it the Mary Syndrome.

I know you do not believe me, a Jewish guy and medical doctor, ...

However, another, more likely explanation though is that, for reasons of perceived societal pressure, the teens answered questions the way they thought the interviewers (and mom and dad too) wanted them to answer them, with Sunday School primness.​

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Two things...

1. The virgin birth of Jesus comes from the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. The problem is that the Hebrew word used means "maiden" and not "virgin," but the English translations insist on using virgin. Ironically, the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops recently agreed that the correct term in Isaiah 7:14 does indeed mean maiden, not virgin. There is no virgin prophecy.

2. In the NT, you find where Mary is pregnant and Joseph is not exactly happy about it. An angel comes and explains the situation to him, at which point he is all cool with it. The Holy Spirit caused Mary's pregnancy, and since Jewish girls were assumed to be virgins until marriage...you get the idea. You don't need an OT prophecy in order for her to be a virgin. She already fulfilled the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy by being a maiden, that just happened to be a virgin, or so it is implied.

However, instead of saying "The Virgin Mary," I just say "Mary, Mother of Jesus" and be done with it.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Is that orthodox catholic belief? I had no idea they were so ... reasonable.

Immaculate Conception
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception

 

[Der Alte]

Two things...

1. The virgin birth of Jesus comes from the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. The problem is that the Hebrew word used means "maiden" and not "virgin," but the English translations insist on using virgin. Ironically, the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops recently agreed that the correct term in Isaiah 7:14 does indeed mean maiden, not virgin. There is no virgin prophecy.

The council of Catholic Bishops do not speak for God or all Christianity.

The Hebrew word עלמה/Almah occurs 7 times in the OT, none of the verses clearly refer to a woman sho is not a virgin. And it is translated παρθένος/parthenos/virgin in the 225 BC Septuagint. Which was translated by Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars. It was also translated virgin in the preChristian Targum, the Aramaic translation of the OT. The Talmud states that the Prophets Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi gave Jonathan Ben Uziel this Aramaic translation.

Targum Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.​

2. In the NT, you find where Mary is pregnant and Joseph is not exactly happy about it. An angel comes and explains the situation to him, at which point he is all cool with it. The Holy Spirit caused Mary's pregnancy, and since Jewish girls were assumed to be virgins until marriage...you get the idea. You don't need an OT prophecy in order for her to be a virgin. She already fulfilled the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy by being a maiden, that just happened to be a virgin, or so it is implied.

However, instead of saying "The Virgin Mary," I just say "Mary, Mother of Jesus" and be done with it.

Why don't you call Mary what she called herself? When the angel told her she was having a son she said, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"[Luk 1:34] She was a virgin whether it was prophesied or not. And the Spirit did not cause Mary's pregnancy.

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.​

The rules of Greek grammar indicates that "The Holy Ghost" and "the power of the Highest" are two separate entities.

 

[Sayre]

Immaculate Conception
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception

I am really lost now. The Immaculate Conception doesn't mean what I thought AT ALL.

So pretty much, Jospeh slept with Mary. Then why was he so taken aback at the thought of finding her with Child? Was his shame about something else?

I find it interesting that Christ might arrive on this earth as a result of sex between two unmarried people. At a time during which social dogma and religious practices would seem to very strongly frown on it.

What am I supposed to conclude from an Immaculate Conception? Was God making a point that the institution of marriage (as defined in the first century) was useless? Was this another way to reveal the religious spirit?

EDIT: Another question... if Mary was without sin and yet slept with Jospeh before marriage... what does that mean? The implications are ... hmm...???

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I am really lost now. The Immaculate Conception doesn't mean what I thought AT ALL.

So pretty much, Jospeh slept with Mary. Then why was he so taken aback at the thought of finding her with Child? Was his shame about something else?

I find it interesting that Christ might arrive on this earth as a result of sex between two unmarried people. At a time during which social dogma and religious practices would seem to very strongly frown on it.

What am I supposed to conclude from an Immaculate Conception? Was God making a point that the institution of marriage (as defined in the first century) was useless? Was this another way to reveal the religious spirit?

EDIT: Another question... if Mary was without sin and yet slept with Jospeh before marriage... what does that mean? The implications are ... hmm...???

The confusion may be my fault. The OP pointed to an article where they spoke of pregnant teens claiming to be virigns today, then it jumps to mentioning the Virgin's Mary's pregnancy with Jesus and suggests that was not the first time a young girl had "claimed" to be pregnant yet a virgin. They suggested the "teaching" is that Mary's parents made the same claim. That is a false claim and easily verified.

I was simply pointing out it is common misunderstanding of the teaching of Immaculate Conception, which refers to Mary's beginnings not Jesus's. But had editors bothered to check the facts they would have known that there has NEVER been a virgin claim regarding Mary's mother. What is "Immaculate" about Mary's conception is the protection God's Grace gave her. The "virgin birth" claim is in regard to Mary pregnant with Jesus ONLY.

So no Joseph and Mary did not sleep together to produce Jesus.

 

[Sayre]

Oh bummer. This is about Mary's conception, not Jesus'.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Two things...

1. The virgin birth of Jesus comes from the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. The problem is that the Hebrew word used means "maiden" and not "virgin," but the English translations insist on using virgin. Ironically, the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops recently agreed that the correct term in Isaiah 7:14 does indeed mean maiden, not virgin. There is no virgin prophecy.

2. In the NT, you find where Mary is pregnant and Joseph is not exactly happy about it. An angel comes and explains the situation to him, at which point he is all cool with it. The Holy Spirit caused Mary's pregnancy, and since Jewish girls were assumed to be virgins until marriage...you get the idea. You don't need an OT prophecy in order for her to be a virgin. She already fulfilled the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy by being a maiden, that just happened to be a virgin, or so it is implied.

However, instead of saying "The Virgin Mary," I just say "Mary, Mother of Jesus" and be done with it.

Two things:
Statement 1) above is a false and a mis-representation of a decision regarding OT Bible translation which was not a statement regarding a prophecy of the virgin birth.
Statement 2) Matthew quotes the Isaiah prophecy in Chapter 1 and there is no misunderstanding or equivocating what Matthew believed Isaiah's prophecy meant, a virgin would give birth.

IOW whether we claim today that Isaiah meant to say virgin or maiden (young girl) is rather a moot point if by the days of Jesus it was clear and commonly known that the prophecy known to Jews was that there would be virgin birth.

 

[Der Alte]

Two things:
Statement 1) above is a false and a mis-representation of a decision regarding OT Bible translation which was not a statement regarding a prophecy of the virgin birth.
Statement 2) Matthew quotes the Isaiah prophecy in Chapter 1 and there is no misunderstanding or equivocating what Matthew believed Isaiah's prophecy meant, a virgin would give birth.

IOW whether we claim today that Isaiah meant to say virgin or maiden (young girl) is rather a moot point if by the days of Jesus it was clear and commonly known that the prophecy known to Jews was that there would be virgin birth.

What he said.

 

[Phantasman]

I find believing in a virgin birth as important as Mark and John did. Matthew has an "angel of the Lord" appearing to Joseph in a dream. Luke says the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary.

I'll stick with Philip on this, as even Marcion removed the birth part knowing it was a way to convince Hebrews, from the first Biblical Canon.

Some said, "Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit." They are in error. They do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a woman? Mary is the virgin whom no power defiled. She is a great anathema to the Hebrews, who are the apostles and the apostolic men.-Philip

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Interesting. Justify embracing gnosticism because two Gospel writers skip everything but the public ministry of Jesus. Can only imagine where one might be if one of the writers had skipped the death and resurrection.

 

[Der Alte]

The title of this thread is "Debunking the ‘Virgin Birth’ Myth." I have been waiting. When does the debunking start? Did I miss it?

 

[Omniskeptical]

Two things...

1. The virgin birth of Jesus comes from the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. The problem is that the Hebrew word used means "maiden" and not "virgin," but the English translations insist on using virgin. Ironically, the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops recently agreed that the correct term in Isaiah 7:14 does indeed mean maiden, not virgin. There is no virgin prophecy.

It wasn't in Isaiah, and it is purged form the book of Jeremiah, one of the books of kings.

2. In the NT, you find where Mary is pregnant and Joseph is not exactly happy about it. An angel comes and explains the situation to him, at which point he is all cool with it. The Holy Spirit caused Mary's pregnancy, and since Jewish girls were assumed to be virgins until marriage...you get the idea. You don't need an OT prophecy in order for her to be a virgin. She already fulfilled the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy by being a maiden, that just happened to be a virgin, or so it is implied.

Do you believe in male virginity?

 

[Phantasman]

Interesting. Justify embracing gnosticism because two Gospel writers skip everything but the public ministry of Jesus. Can only imagine where one might be if one of the writers had skipped the death and resurrection.

I just don't get side stepped of Christ's taught wisdom by pointing to the virgin Mary. People may start making statues and worshiping her as some sort of idol.