debunking a KJV onliest

DamianWarS

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I recently watched a video by a KJV onliest. This person claimed that new translations were corruptions of the word of God because of how they translated words. This person said you can use what he called a "checklist" to determine if your bible is corrupted or not. This "checklist" used 6 verses to determine this 3 in the OT and 3 in the NT. The NT claims are differences between the majority/minority texts so you are going to believe whatever text you like the best but the OT is translated from the same hebrew. I was actually bothered by these claims and would like to go through and address this OT list quoting from the KJV and using the NASB as my "corrupted text".

1
Genesis 1:1
KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
NASB In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

the alleged corrupted portion of the text is the plural of heaven in the modern translations. The suggestion is that heave, singular, is the correct translation as it is in context of whole universe expanse (space) where a plural reference implies our earthly atmosphere, space, and heaven with God lives which is incorrect.

Well ignoring the 3 heavens that is assumed from the plural I would like to look at the Hebrew text to determine what the actual word is and how it should be properly translated.

here is the Hebrew in Gen 1:1 for heaven/heavens
השמים (hashamayim)
reading from right to left the literal translation is "the-heaven-s". To break it down the first letter (He) is a prefix and acts as a definite article and so means "the" or "the shamayim" The suffix "yim" indicates that it is plural so it is "the shama-(plural marker)" So this alone shoes us that whatever word you use to translate hashamayim the Hebrew does show it in its plural form. And the KJV doesn't disagree with this either for example the exact same word is in Genesis 2:1 and the KJV translated this inconsistent with how they translated it in Genesis 1:1 saying "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

2
Isaiah 14:12
KJV How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
NASB How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

the alleged corrupted portion of the text is that the KJV uses the name "Lucifer" which then is assumed to be the name of Satan. And the new translations uses "morning star" (NASB "star of the morning"). The problem has multiple implications in that Lucifer seems to suggest to go back to Satan where as "morning star" could suggest that Christ is the one that has fallen from heaven since he is refereed to as the morning start in Rev 22:16 and also the day star (another alternative translation) in Peter 2:19.

Well first although the text can figuratively point to Satan it directly is referring to the King of Babylon. Certainly Babylon is many times paralleled with sin and thus the King of Babylon is the King of Sin and works well with the idea of Satan and I would agree with this interpretation. However the issue here is should the word be "Lucifer" or "Morning Star/Day Star". Well lets look at the Hebrew text again.

The word in question for Lucifer/Morning Star
הילל (heylel)
Well at first glance heylel doesn't look anything like Lucifer or Morning Star so the word is obviously translated from hebrew into English but the problem is how does heylel turn into Lucifer? Well Lucifer is actually not English at all it is Latin... and what is it Latin for... it is Latin for "Morning Star". So although these words are thought of as distinct they actually are the same thing... Lucifer = Morning Star and Morning Star = Lucifer (as an adjective it means light-bringer). Because of this passage figuratively pointing to Satan through the Latin Vulgate the name Lucifer became the popular name for Satan but no where in the bible affirms the name for Satan is the Latin word for Morning Star. Although to some it seems offensive to put Lucifer and Morning Star on the same level because Jesus is called the Morning Star Jerome, who wrote the Latin Vulgate uses Lucifer in this passage which figuratively points to Satan and also in Peter 2:19 which points to Christ (yes Christ is call lucifer ). To Jerome however there wasn't a problem as Lucifer was just a word to him. The difference between the Latin text and the KJV is the Latin doesn't use this word as a name but instead just as a word where as the KJV assumes this to be a name. The KJV isn't exactly wrong as the text seems to indicate it is a title of sorts but in a general sense like called someone a president but not in a specific sense as in identifying a name unique for Satan. It is unclear how far the the scribes of the KJV wanted this to go but today Lucifer is by far a very accepted name for Satan which is only based on a tradition and nothing else.

3
Daniel 3:25
KJV He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
NASB He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

the alleged corrupted portion of the text is that the KJV seems points to the son of a monotheistic deity which then can be paralleled with Christ and the newer translated uses a the plural "gods" which points to a pagan understanding of God and is counter-christian.

Well what does the Hebrew say. Well to start off the passage is not in Hebrew it is in Aramaic. Most of the OT is in Hebrew however some areas like a lot of Daniel is in Aramaic
אלהין (elahin)
the Hebrew equivalent would be:
אלהים (elohyim)
I will refer back to the remarks on Gen 1:1. The suffix "yim" in Hebrew is a plural marker and in Aramaic it is the suffix "hin" The pronunciation may change base on whats before it but in Hebrew it is ים and in Aramaic it is ין and they both indicate a plural. So "gods" is perfectly acceptable

The confusion is that through the bible the Israelite's God is referred to many times as the plural elohyim and translated as the singular "God" and not "gods". The reason for this is in Hebrew (as well as Aramaic) there is something called a majestic plural where the plural is put there as a form of respect but not to indicate more than one of something. The best English equivalent is capitalization of the first letter to make the word unique like "God" instead of "god". For example Gen 1:1 uses the word elohyim for God. In Hebrew Gen 1:1 uses this majestic plural but in English we capitalize the first letter.

If this is so why doesn't this text translated it as only "Son of God" instead of "son of gods" Well elohyim is translated as many things in the bible sometimes as God but also sometimes as gods this is the same in the KJV. What determines what it should be is the context. In this case the context is the pagan Babylonians looking into a fire and see what they describe as a son of gods. This is not intended to be a statement who this fourth man actually was but instead a statement description of what a pagan mind sees when they saw this fourth figure. They are not monotheistic so for them to point to a monotheistic God would be inconsistent with their belief system.

Elohyim is translated as other words as well in the KJV like judge, angel or goddess and again the context is what shapes the english translation. Because a group of pagans saw a man and describes him as a son of God/gods does not mean he was Jesus. We as Christians like to think this because of what we know of Jesus but we must remember who is speaking this and they only spoke what they thought they saw. Elohyim is a word that is connected with something of great power and can be translated simply as the word "powers" which is why it can be translated to different English words of people who hold power. All the words that the Babylonians describe only show us that this fourth man was of great power and in no way does it condone polytheism but it does reflect their understanding.
 
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HEsTiLLALiVe

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You don't have to believe this, but King James is the most accurate bible that we currently have. It's the closest to the manuscripts, and anything else is definately a poor translation. But hey, you have free will, so you could do your research or just believe these faulty new translations. Be blessed and Shalom
 
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DamianWarS

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HEsTiLLALiVe said:
You don't have to believe this, but King James is the most accurate bible that we currently have. It's the closest to the manuscripts, and anything else is definately a poor translation. But hey, you have free will, so you could do your research or just believe these faulty new translations. Be blessed and Shalom

Do you care to show examples of why the KJV is the best? My post at least went through and explained why these KJV verses were in fact less accurate, you may disagree and that's all well and good but they are just empty words until they can be backed up. I have no problem with the KJV I just have a problem with calling other translations faulty especially when you don't even try to explain the reasons why. So as far as I'm concerned your reply is just a bunch of noise but you are free to show me otherwise.
 
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SteveCaruso

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You don't have to believe this, but King James is the most accurate bible that we currently have. It's the closest to the manuscripts, and anything else is definately a poor translation. But hey, you have free will, so you could do your research or just believe these faulty new translations. Be blessed and Shalom

Nothing is "closer to the manuscripts" than the manuscripts, themselves, and anyone who is serious about the Bible (I emphasize: *anyone*) can learn the original languages. It's not rocket science, it's simply the discipline of reading and writing.

The only obstacle in the way is a battery of poor excuses. :)

Muslims learn Arabic as part of their religious training and Jews learn Hebrew. In contrast, Christians (as a whole) have no systematic language training to better understand our own scriptures or the history of our faith. What gives?

KJVO philosophy is a stumbling block along that road.
 
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childofdust

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I recently watched a video by a KJV onliest. This person claimed that new translations were corruptions of the word of God because of how they translated words. This person said you can use what he called a "checklist" to determine if your bible is corrupted or not. This "checklist" used 6 verses to determine this 3 in the OT and 3 in the NT. The NT claims are differences between the majority/minority texts so you are going to believe whatever text you like the best but the OT is translated from the same hebrew. I was actually bothered by these claims and would like to go through and address this OT list quoting from the KJV and using the NASB as my "corrupted text".

Every KJV only person I have ever met always had the same characteristic: complete ignorance of the original languages of scripture. The person on the video you watched is another in the long line of ignorants who know nothing of what they speak. A person who doesn't actually know anything at all about what the word of god actually says in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, wouldn't presume to tell god's word what it should and shouldn't look like—or, at least, a person with any shred of humility. Even a godless heathen can have enough sense to realize that if they don't know what the languages are saying, they can't make a judgment about how it should be translated. This is evidence, in my mind, that the only kind of person that can be KJV only is the kind of person who is so built up in their own pride that they cannot even approach the bible unless it agrees with what they want it to say. Just like the Pharisees in Jesus' day who couldn't accept Jesus when he came because they could only accept the word of God that they decreed was correct.
 
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makahiya7

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I am not a KJV Only.

I believe all scripture is given by inspiration of God.

KJV 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

KJV Holy Bibles are not only the most published, read and loved bibles of all time !

While the entire line of scripture are records, the outstanding record of scripture and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form
of the AV 1611 Holy Bible first edition.

#1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe only the original manuscripts
were given by inspiration of God. There are no original manuscripts.
KJV But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness,
nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves
to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

#2. You cannot honestly say “the bible” or “all bibles” are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 400 (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek, Syrian, Latin, German, English,
French, Spanish, etc. bibles which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

#3. You cannot honestly say “the Greek N.T.” or “all N.T. Greek texts” are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 24 reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts
which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

#4. KJV Holy Bibles are not only the most published, read and loved bibles of all time, KJV Holy Bibles
are the most published, read and loved books of all time. All KJV Holy Bibles are editions of the 1611 KJV first edition. There were no manuscript revisions until the 1881 Revised Version, only spelling, measurements and punctuation editions.
KJV For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity,
but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

#5. The Record Theory independently answers the questions of final canonization (books and words)
and final authority. The dynamic Purified Text Theory supports the Record Theory, demonstrated categorically and conclusively in the manuscript evidence, bible canonization, bible doctrine, billions of bibles and computational linguistics. KJV Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
 
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ebedmelech

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I am not a KJV Only.

I believe all scripture is given by inspiration of God.

KJV 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

KJV Holy Bibles are not only the most published, read and loved bibles of all time !

While the entire line of scripture are records, the outstanding record of scripture and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form
of the AV 1611 Holy Bible first edition.

#1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe only the original manuscripts
were given by inspiration of God. There are no original manuscripts.
KJV But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness,
nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves
to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

#2. You cannot honestly say “the bible” or “all bibles” are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 400 (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek, Syrian, Latin, German, English,
French, Spanish, etc. bibles which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

#3. You cannot honestly say “the Greek N.T.” or “all N.T. Greek texts” are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 24 reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts
which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

#4. KJV Holy Bibles are not only the most published, read and loved bibles of all time, KJV Holy Bibles
are the most published, read and loved books of all time. All KJV Holy Bibles are editions of the 1611 KJV first edition. There were no manuscript revisions until the 1881 Revised Version, only spelling, measurements and punctuation editions.
KJV For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity,
but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

#5. The Record Theory independently answers the questions of final canonization (books and words)
and final authority. The dynamic Purified Text Theory supports the Record Theory, demonstrated categorically and conclusively in the manuscript evidence, bible canonization, bible doctrine, billions of bibles and computational linguistics. KJV Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Actually this is pure nonsense! Something you believe. There were bibles like the Geneva, Bishops, Coverdale, Tyndale versions (for example) before the KJV EVER came along.

It's true the KJV stood as the most popular ENGLISH translation of the scriptures however, there has been manuscripts discovered since the publication of the KJV...like the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Lastly to think that since there are no original manuscripts, that one cannot get back to the originals when:

*Over 24,000 partial/complete manuscripts of the New Testament exist and...

*Thousands of copies from the OT manuscripts

It is not logical to think through comparison you cannot get very close to the originals.

Lastly, unless the Holy Spirit left us, to deny God's ability to preserve His word regardless of the originals...is to diminish His power.

Think about that.

*
 
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sculleywr

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You don't have to believe this, but King James is the most accurate bible that we currently have. It's the closest to the manuscripts, and anything else is definately a poor translation. But hey, you have free will, so you could do your research or just believe these faulty new translations. Be blessed and Shalom

The king James version is a poor example if translator honesty, what with the bribes they accepted and what not. Besides that, the manuscripts we have now are closer to the originals in time than those available for the KJV translators
 
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DamianWarS

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I am not a KJV Only.

I believe all scripture is given by inspiration of God.

KJV 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

KJV Holy Bibles are not only the most published, read and loved bibles of all time !

While the entire line of scripture are records, the outstanding record of scripture and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form
of the AV 1611 Holy Bible first edition.

#1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe only the original manuscripts
were given by inspiration of God. There are no original manuscripts.
KJV But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness,
nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves
to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

#2. You cannot honestly say “the bible” or “all bibles” are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 400 (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek, Syrian, Latin, German, English,
French, Spanish, etc. bibles which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

#3. You cannot honestly say “the Greek N.T.” or “all N.T. Greek texts” are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 24 reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts
which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

#4. KJV Holy Bibles are not only the most published, read and loved bibles of all time, KJV Holy Bibles
are the most published, read and loved books of all time. All KJV Holy Bibles are editions of the 1611 KJV first edition. There were no manuscript revisions until the 1881 Revised Version, only spelling, measurements and punctuation editions.
KJV For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity,
but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

#5. The Record Theory independently answers the questions of final canonization (books and words)
and final authority. The dynamic Purified Text Theory supports the Record Theory, demonstrated categorically and conclusively in the manuscript evidence, bible canonization, bible doctrine, billions of bibles and computational linguistics. KJV Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Reason 1, 2 and 3 could be applied to any version and does not uniquely separate the KJV as better than any other version. I could just as well say the exact same reasons for the NIV, NASB or NLT.

Reason 4 seems to be more based on the popularity of the version than anything else which is not a very good reason to support it. If we wait long enough another version will rise up and become better than the KJV purely because it has become more popular. Also the KJV is not a manuscript thus it cannot have "manuscript revisions". The KJV is a published printed book which exempts it from being called a manuscript which is something handwritten.

And with regards to reason 5, I would like to hear you explain what the "Record Theory" is and also what the "dynamic Purified Text Theory" is because I don't believe you actually know what they are It seems to me that you just copied and pasted that from somewhere because it sounded really smart. (in fact I know you did because I goggled the text)

As far as I'm concerned your only real reason that you use is simply because the KJV is old and popular... using that same logic I'm sure many texts would all of a sudden become God breathed too simply because they too are old and popular.
 
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SteveCaruso

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computational linguistics

I'm going to try this in my best Mandy-Patinkin-fake-Spanish accent:

"I don't think that word means what you think it means."

The field of Computational Linguistics has discovered nothing about the KJV that is relevant to this discussion.
 
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Eloy

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I prefer the 1560 Geneva English Bible over the KJV. Howevewr, the KJV is proven to be better than the newer translations, for all one needs to do is compare word-by-word the copy of the original Hebrew or Greek scriptures, and compare them side-by-side with the KJV: and measure these together with any number of the newer Unholy books on the market today being "so-called" bibles on the market, and you will plainly see the vast amount of corruption that sinners have taken to adulterate God's words. Frankly, the newer adulterations are not even worth the paper that they have printed on. Do the research, and if you truly love God's word, then you will prefer the translation that is the best translation, and not settle for inferior drivvle and Bible wannabes.
 
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DamianWarS

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I prefer the 1560 Geneva English Bible over the KJV. Howevewr, the KJV is proven to be better than the newer translations, for all one needs to do is compare word-by-word the copy of the original Hebrew or Greek scriptures, and compare them side-by-side with the KJV: and measure these together with any number of the newer Unholy books on the market today being "so-called" bibles on the market, and you will plainly see the vast amount of corruption that sinners have taken to adulterate God's words.

I addressed some of these comparisons in the OP and the KJV fell short where the newer translations seemed better or did you not read the first post?

Frankly, the newer adulterations are not even worth the paper that they have printed on. Do the research, and if you truly love God's word, then you will prefer the translation that is the best translation, and not settle for inferior drivvle and Bible wannabes.

I have done the research (again 3 examples listed in the OP) and have not found the KJV stands any stronger than these newer bibles you called "inferior drivel" and "Unholy books".

If you care to make claims like these it is not good enough to say that "research" proves it because I say the exact same thing yet I stand on an opposite side of the argument than you do. This discussion demands more than surface accusations and if you are going to say something than you need to back what you say with at least some examples that prove your point otherwise its just a bunch of noise.

at this point no one has cared to show not even one example, in terms of actual scripture, that shows the KJV is a better translation... I would post more examples but I am waiting for someone to properly refute what I have said. So far when it comes to this discussion the examples explained in the OP is the only thing on the scales and thus it is tipped in the OP's favor against the other side which as far as I'm concern has contributed nothing.

Please someone contribute something to at least make this a little more interesting.
 
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sculleywr

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I addressed some of these comparisons in the OP and the KJV fell short where the newer translations seemed better or did you not read the first post?

I have done the research (again 3 examples listed in the OP) and have not found the KJV stands any stronger than these newer bibles you called "inferior drivel" and "Unholy books".

If you care to make claims like these it is not good enough to say that "research" proves it because I say the exact same thing yet I stand on an opposite side of the argument than you do. This discussion demands more than surface accusations and if you are going to say something than you need to back what you say with at least some examples that prove your point otherwise its just a bunch of noise.

at this point no one has cared to show not even one example, in terms of actual scripture, that shows the KJV is a better translation... I would post more examples but I am waiting for someone to properly refute what I have said. So far when it comes to this discussion the examples explained in the OP is the only thing on the scales and thus it is tipped in the OP's favor against the other side which as far as I'm concern has contributed nothing.

Please someone contribute something to at least make this a little more interesting.

I would contribute something, but I believe my point has been made plenty well enough between myself and other people on this thread.
 
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DamianWarS

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sculleywr said:
I would contribute something, but I believe my point has been made plenty well enough between myself and other people on this thread.

I'm more putting a challenge out to people who support the KJV as the only authentic and uncorrupted English translation.
 
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sculleywr

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I'm more putting a challenge out to people who support the KJV as the only authentic and uncorrupted English translation.

Like I said, I agree with you on this issue. The answers they will have have been repeated and debunked thousands of times by now
 
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BloodBoughtChad

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I prefer the 1560 Geneva English Bible over the KJV. Howevewr, the KJV is proven to be better than the newer translations, for all one needs to do is compare word-by-word the copy of the original Hebrew or Greek scriptures, and compare them side-by-side with the KJV: and measure these together with any number of the newer Unholy books on the market today being "so-called" bibles on the market, and you will plainly see the vast amount of corruption that sinners have taken to adulterate God's words. Frankly, the newer adulterations are not even worth the paper that they have printed on. Do the research, and if you truly love God's word, then you will prefer the translation that is the best translation, and not settle for inferior drivvle and Bible wannabes.

Which Greek are you referring to?
 
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DamianWarS

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Which Greek are you referring to?

I didn't want this to turn into a majority/minatory text argument which I know is somewhat inevitable when talking about the KJV and newer translations. This is why I kept it in the OT as all translations essentially use the same text which is the Masoretic Text. I figure if it is an argument about which is better than let's compare translations using sources that we agree on and with regards to the NT compare only the verses that both majority/minatory text agree on which is the vast majority of the NT. Otherwise it is not really an argument on which translation is better but instead which source is better. If the texts that are agreed upon are compared with the differences between KJV and newer translations than it is more clear on which is better translated and which is not as the source is the same.
 
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