Dale Cregan held after policewomen killed in Manchester

[Supreme]

BBC News - Dale Cregan held after policewomen killed in Manchester

Two unarmed female police officers have been killed in a gun and grenade attack in Greater Manchester, which led to the arrest of a wanted man.

PC Nicola Hughes, 23, and PC Fiona Bone, 32, were called to Abbey Gardens in Mottram to investigate what turned out to be a false report of a burglary.

Police said it appeared they had been deliberately "drawn" to the scene.

Dale Cregan, 29, has been arrested in connection with the officers' deaths and two previous murders.

He was detained when he walked into Hyde police station a short time after the incident.

Greater Manchester Police Chief Constable Sir Peter Fahy said someone had made a call alleging a burglary had been committed and when the officers arrived they were attacked with a gun and a grenade.

This is so shocking and sad. Killings of officers are few and far between, but this cold blooded murder has surprised the entire police force. My prayers are with the victims of the families. May Cregan never taste freedom again; he deserves to be behind bars for the rest of his life for this.

 

[AndrewZinc]

My prayers are with the two officer's families and the team who were hunting him and will be distraught that they were too late.

We are one of only three countries in Europe not to routinely arm police officers and I believe that is a good thing.

The fact that this is headline news and re-ignites the debates on arming police and the death penalty just goes to show how rare these incidents are.

 

[bigbadwilf]

What gets my goat (and yes, I've had to rewrite the start of this comment several times to save the obscenity filter the trouble) is the plaititudes that the politicians are coming up with.
This from the Prime Minister:

What we have seen is an absolutely despicable act, one of pure evil. The cold-blooded murder of two female police officers doing their job out there protecting the public, another reminder of the incredible risks and great work our police service does. My thoughts, and I think the thoughts of the whole country, will be with their families at this impossibly difficult time

This from the Home Secretary:

This is a deeply shocking incident and a terrible reminder of the risks that police officers face every day to keep our communities safe.

This from the same government that has massively and systematically alienated the constabulary.

May the two PCs rest in peace. And as for Cregan, the way I read it is the minimum for the murder of one police officer is currently life with a minimum of 30 years. For two counts it's leaving prison in a box.


Andrew, I'm not sure that I agree with you on routine arming of police officers, as it stands, as we have so tragically seen today it means potentially not bringing a knife to a gunfight, but bringing a tin stick and a can of pepper. Firearms might be too permanant a solution but something less-lethal that actually works at a distance is sadly I think a necessity.

 

[Bethesda]

What gets my goat (and yes, I've had to rewrite the start of this comment several times to save the obscenity filter the trouble) is the plaititudes that the politicians are coming up with.
This from the Prime Minister:


This from the Home Secretary:


This from the same government that has massively and systematically alienated the constabulary.

May the two PCs rest in peace. And as for Cregan, the way I read it is the minimum for the murder of one police officer is currently life with a minimum of 30 years. For two counts it's leaving prison in a box.


Andrew, I'm not sure that I agree with you on routine arming of police officers, as it stands, as we have so tragically seen today it means potentially not bringing a knife to a gunfight, but bringing a tin stick and a can of pepper. Firearms might be too permanant a solution but something less-lethal that actually works at a distance is sadly I think a necessity.

less than lethal sounds great and maybe in time something will be developed (usually over the protests of the the usual suspects)- present equipment like Tazers etc are too short range and able to be defeated by thick clothing etc. It sounds that one of the officers had a Tazer but in the ferocity of the assault they came under then i doubt they would have had much effect or chance to be used. Perhaps from reading about what happened if the 2nd PC had been armed, she might have had a chance to return fire. Overall of course this kind of deliberate ambush is very rare - whats more of concern is the way that the whole Risk Assessment process is sometimes used the other way - ie if there is no definite intelligence of a firearms risk then armed officers are not deployed, even if say officers are about to carry out the arrests of criminals, who think they are about to take delivery of millions of pounds worth of drugs - where there might be a presumption that people with such an investment to protect and facing such long sentences (not to mention protecting themselves from rival gangs) might have more than strong language in the arsenal.

 

[AndrewZinc]

They were in an enclosed space and even if they had been armed, it is unlikely that would have made a difference. It was an ambush and must have happened very quickly. To be honest, there is very little that could have saved them in this instance. The issue here is bail, someone being investigated for such a serious offence perhaps should be remanded in custody.

I am content with current Armed Response Vehicle arrangements in cities, but would perhaps be open to more armed officers in rural areas where the ARVs are never going to get there in time.

But, it is clear that officers in general don't feel they all need to be armed at this point, and they know best.

 

[Supreme]

They were in an enclosed space and even if they had been armed, it is unlikely that would have made a difference. It was an ambush and must have happened very quickly. To be honest, there is very little that could have saved them in this instance. The issue here is bail, someone being investigated for such a serious offence perhaps should be remanded in custody.

I am content with current Armed Response Vehicle arrangements in cities, but would perhaps be open to more armed officers in rural areas where the ARVs are never going to get there in time.

But, it is clear that officers in general don't feel they all need to be armed at this point, and they know best.

This is very true. There would simply have been no time to return fire, had the officers been armed. It would probably have made no difference whatsoever.

Our police officers do not need to be armed. I think arming police would be a big mistake. There's clearly no need for it, and it could lead to more distrust between the public and police.

 

[Bethesda]

They were in an enclosed space and even if they had been armed, it is unlikely that would have made a difference. It was an ambush and must have happened very quickly. To be honest, there is very little that could have saved them in this instance. The issue here is bail, someone being investigated for such a serious offence perhaps should be remanded in custody.

I am content with current Armed Response Vehicle arrangements in cities, but would perhaps be open to more armed officers in rural areas where the ARVs are never going to get there in time.

But, it is clear that officers in general don't feel they all need to be armed at this point, and they know best.

The thing is he was released on bail pending further enquiries. You cannot remand people in custody for further enquiries - they can only be remanded after charge. The issue is the level of evidence that the CPS require to give authority to charge. Thats why there has been all this argument in the past re the period allowed for detention without charge for terrorism offences - it was 28 days and has now fallen back to 14 days - but thats in terrorism cases - in a normal crime case its 72 hrs (and that has to be authorised by the courts to go that long)

 

[AndrewZinc]

The thing is he was released on bail pending further enquiries. You cannot remand people in custody for further enquiries - they can only be remanded after charge. The issue is the level of evidence that the CPS require to give authority to charge.

My apologies. We don't have the CPS here, though I do cover the English Midlands at work. No easy answer then.