Dake's Racist?

[queenm04]

Dont remember posting on this forum before. Hi to you all

Have posted the same question in the general theology forum. am hoping to get different perspectives. hope the mods wont merge the threads



Am not sure how many of you use the Dake's bible. but this has disturbed me.
A friend I have just met not long ago told me that Dake’s (Author of Finnis Dake’s annotated reference bible) was racist. Apparently in his publishing company. (Dake’s) they are trying to ‘tone down’ the statements he said under "30 reasons for segregation of races."in page 159 of the New Testament. Since he died in 1987. South Africa is a racially sensitive country. Having seen what the apartheid system has done to this country I cannot believe that Dake can be one of the people that can perpetuate such!!! Have used the Dake Bible for sometime now. My father has used it from long ago.


Does any one have those 30 reasons from the earlier versions? And any views on these. This is so injuring to the spirit man!


I asked my dad to read me some of the statements over the phone earlier because he has an earlier version. He says one of the statements goes,


‘Different races in heaven will not pray together’


Did not hear the other one very well that says ‘separation of races, especially black races, bla bla, bla, my father said it is for the first time he saw those statements. He says they are so alarming.

I also hear, dont know how true, there were people that were still perpetuating Dake's racist ideas. like the Word of Faith Movement ministers, and diaspora american ministers began to stand up against all these. and some WoF jr was called to apologise for the movement on behalf of his father, and he did not! any one has a clue???

 

[JimB]

Seventy-five years ago, when Finis Dake was alive, racism was much more accepted (tolerated) than it is today. Actually, though, I believe we are all racist/prejudiced to one extent or another, even the most liberal among us, (most likely, even you queenm04), and in every race or religion. In the interest of fairness, here is a link to a position paper on this issue at the Dake.com website - http://www.dake.com/position.html.

\o/

 

[songbird88]

You are correct that Dakes has some passive racist statements in his interpretation of what the Bible says.
Fred Price has taught on this topic at length.
I think the statements were basically passive in nature and did not originate from a personal racist nature. It was wrong.
Dakes does have some very good notes and teaching. This is not one of them.
Be like the old cow... eat the hay and leave the sticks!

Dont remember posting on this forum before. Hi to you all

Have posted the same question in the general theology forum. am hoping to get different perspectives. hope the mods wont merge the threads



Am not sure how many of you use the Dake's bible. but this has disturbed me.
A friend I have just met not long ago told me that Dake’s (Author of Finnis Dake’s annotated reference bible) was racist. Apparently in his publishing company. (Dake’s) they are trying to ‘tone down’ the statements he said under "30 reasons for segregation of races."in page 159 of the New Testament. Since he died in 1987. South Africa is a racially sensitive country. Having seen what the apartheid system has done to this country I cannot believe that Dake can be one of the people that can perpetuate such!!! Have used the Dake Bible for sometime now. My father has used it from long ago.


Does any one have those 30 reasons from the earlier versions? And any views on these. This is so injuring to the spirit man!


I asked my dad to read me some of the statements over the phone earlier because he has an earlier version. He says one of the statements goes,


‘Different races in heaven will not pray together’


Did not hear the other one very well that says ‘separation of races, especially black races, bla bla, bla, my father said it is for the first time he saw those statements. He says they are so alarming.

I also hear, dont know how true, there were people that were still perpetuating Dake's racist ideas. like the word faith movement, Kenneth Hagin sr, Kenneth Copeland and Kenyon. and black american ministers began to stand up against all these. and Hagin jr was called to apologise for the movement on behalf of his father, and he did not! any one know all these???

 

[New_Wineskin]

Be like the old cow... eat the hay and leave the sticks!

Or , see the sticks - go to a different pasture . There are a lot of other books and references out there . When one sees a certain distasteful slant to a person's teachings , it would take less effort to ignore their writings altgether and go on to others' writings than to weed through something with known problems .

 

[songbird88]

My 1987 verson has the 30 items in question. They are notes for Acts 17:26.
My 1997 Computer version of Dakes does not have these notes. They have been replaced with a "toned down" version. Here it is for informational perposes. Let me reiterate I do not agree with most of their interpretation of these verses... I just happen to have the notes and am providing them for the purposes of this discussion... so don't jump me!

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Dake Charts »Front Matter »Summary of Acts
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Acts 17:26

a [one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth]

Separation in Scripture
​

This verse says God made "all nations of men" from "one blood"; it also speaks of "the bounds of their habitation." In spite of a common ancestry, from Adam first and later Noah, it was God's will for man to scatter over the earth, to "be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 1:28; Genesis 8:17; Genesis 9:1). Man's failure to obey caused God to confuse his language (Genesis 11:1-9) and to physically separate the nations by dividing the earth into continents (Genesis 10:25). Both physically and spiritually, separation has been a consistent theme for God's people:

1. Separation for Messiah's line:

(1) Before and after Noah's flood, fallen angels (sons of God in § Genesis 6:1-4, notes) married human women and had giant offspring. This was done to corrupt the human race and prevent the birth of the Messiah, the Seed of the woman prophesied in Genesis 3:15.

(2) Destruction of the corrupt human race was the reason for the flood in Noah's day. See note, § Genesis 6.

(3) God preserved Noah because he and his family were the only pure Adamites left. See note, § Genesis 6:9.

(4) Satan continually tried to prevent Messiah's birth by corrupting Israel through intermarriage with Canaanites whose race included giant offspring. One reason for Israel's separation as a nation was to preserve their purity for the birth of the Messiah. See note, § Genesis 24:3.

2. Separation in Israel:

(1) Abraham forbade Eliezer to take a Canaanite wife for Isaac (Genesis 24:1-4). God was pleased and He directed whom to get (Genesis 24:7-67).

(2) Isaac forbade Jacob to take a Canaanite wife (Genesis 27:46-28:7).

(3) Abraham sent the sons of his concubines and his second wife far away from Isaac so their descendants would not mix (Genesis 25:1-6).

(4) Esau's disobedience deeply grieved his parents (Genesis 25:28; Genesis 26:34-35; Genesis 27:46; Genesis 28:8-9).

(5) Two branches of Isaac remain separate forever (Genesis 36; Genesis 46:8-26).

(6) Ishmael's and Isaac's descendants remain separate forever (Genesis 25:12-23; 1 Chron. 1:29).

(7) God forbade Israel to intermarry (Exodus 34:12-16; Deut. 7:3-6).

(8) Intermarriage caused disunity among God's people (Numbers 12).

(9) Enemies remained in the land as a penalty for this (Joshua 23:12-13).

(10) Intermarriage caused a curse on Israel (Judges 3:6-7; Numbers 25:1-8).

(11) This was Solomon's sin (1 Kings 11).

(12) It was a sin of Jews returning from Babylon (Ezra 9; Ezra 10; Neh. 13).

(13) God told Israel to be separated (Leviticus 20:24; Numbers 23:9; 1 Kings 8:53).

(14) Jews are recognized as a separate people in all ages because of God's choice (Matthew 10:6; John 1:11).

(15) Separation between Jews and all other nations is to remain in eternity (Isaiah 2:2-4; Ezekiel 37; Ezekiel 47:13-48:35; Zech. 14:16-21; Matthew 19:28; Luke 1:32-33; Rev. 7:1-8; Rev. 14:1-5).

(16) Certain people in Israel were not to worship with others (Deut. 23:1-3; Ezra 10:8; Neh. 9:2; Neh. 10:28; Neh. 13:3).

3. Miscellaneous separation:

(1) An ox and an ass could not be worked together (Deut. 22:10).

(2) Stock was forbidden to be bred with other kinds (Leviticus 19:19).

(3) Sowing mixed seed in the same field was unlawful (Leviticus 19:19).

(4) Different seeds were forbidden to be planted in vineyards (Deut. 22:9).

(5) Wearing garments of mixed fabrics forbidden (Deut. 22:11; Leviticus 19:19).

4. Christian separation: Christians to be separate from certain people at times (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Cor. 5:9-13; 1 Cor. 6:15; 2 Cor. 6:14-18; 2 Thes. 3:6,14; 1 Tim. 6:5; 2 Tim. 3:5).

 

[songbird88]

You are corrent NW!
If a person cannot discern right from wrong in issues such as racism and such... they should stick to writings of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Knox.
Opps wait... Luther was a reknown anti-semetic, Knox and Calvin thought the catholic chruch was babyon the great and the pope was the anit-christ. Maybe Wesley and Spurgeon? Opps again... more of the "pope is the anti-christ"
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"My advice... is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire.."
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Martin Luther ("On the Jews and their lies" 1543)[/font]

Fact is, beyond Dakes, many of the founders of modern Christianity were racist, supported slavery, and were rabidly anti-semetic. Many people believe the holocaust could never have happened if not for this root of prejudice and hate planted by these leaders.
What Dakes taught is mild compared to many of the very people we hold up as the founders of the modern Christian chruch.
I fully support your position. We should break from all this stick ridden pasture of modern Christainity.

Or , see the sticks - go to a different pasture . There are a lot of other books and references out there . When one sees a certain distasteful slant to a person's teachings , it would take less effort to ignore their writings altgether and go on to others' writings than to weed through something with known problems .

 

[Blade]

" ignore their writings "

I guess but when you find one that has it all right let me know.

"I also hear" don't take this wrong but I don't care. I don't care what someone said they heard.

I found what you were talking about (Dakes) and I don't see the racist in it. I may not agree with some of it but I can understand it. My wife is chinese her family is from China trust me there was no way they were gona let thier little girl mary me. To them chinese only mary chinese. And has nothing to do with racist.

 

[kooolfriend]

Ignorance is what made somebody racist.
Let the truth dawn on us, and it will set us free from all racism, prejudice, hate...

 

[queenm04]

Or , see the sticks - go to a different pasture . There are a lot of other books and references out there . When one sees a certain distasteful slant to a person's teachings , it would take less effort to ignore their writings altgether and go on to others' writings than to weed through something with known problems .

I agree!!! But this just shows he is man. proving the fact that only God alone is . A good lesson in trusting only in the Almighty.

 

[queenm04]

What Dakes taught is mild compared to many of the very people we hold up as the founders of the modern Christian chruch.
I fully support your position. We should break from all this stick ridden pasture of modern Christainity.

Am not sure if is mild because you said what you had put there was from the 'toned down' computer version ..surely the statement that


‘Different races in heaven will not pray together’


is not mild to me...

 

[New_Wineskin]

You are corrent NW!
If a person cannot discern right from wrong in issues such as racism and such... they should stick to writings of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Knox.
Opps wait... Luther was a reknown anti-semetic, Knox and Calvin thought the catholic chruch was babyon the great and the pope was the anit-christ.

I would not read the teachings of Luther or Calvin because of their actions against those that disagreed with them . I am glad that we agree .

There are a lot of teachings out there if one really needs to read teachings from others . Would it be a loss if a person did not read Dake or Luther or Calvin ? Should everyone read the liturature of all of those considered as "great leaders" ( the list of course would not even be agreed upon ) ? I was merely stating that *if* a person had a problem with someone's slant , they don't have to read their writings . I haven't read Luther's or Calvin's works ( only a smidgen here and there ) and I know that I am not the worse for it . I have rarely heard Dake's name mentioned let alone quoted .

I am not saying to abstain from their writings . I am saying that one can always move on to another's .

 

[queenm04]

"I also hear" don't take this wrong but I don't care. I don't care what someone said they heard.

I found what you were talking about (Dakes) and I don't see the racist in it. I may not agree with some of it but I can understand it. My wife is chinese her family is from China trust me there was no way they were gona let thier little girl mary me. To them chinese only mary chinese. And has nothing to do with racist.

My 1997 Computer version of Dakes does not have these notes. They have been replaced with a "toned down" version. Here it is for informational perposes

Hi Blade, What year's version of Dake's do you have?

 

[songbird88]

Am not sure if is mild because you said what you had put there was from the 'toned down' computer version ..surely the statement that


‘Different races in heaven will not pray together’


is not mild to me...

I agree...if that is in fact a quote.

I have all of Dakes books... I have never found this....

I have searched the internet and that quote exists nowhere.

Can you site a source?
Thanks!

 

[queenm04]

I have all of Dakes books... I have never found this....
I have searched the internet and that quote exists nowhere.
Can you site a source?
Thanks!

All of Dakes books wow!!! my dad's version is a 9th printing for 1976, do you also have this?

Any one having these 30 points in the 70’s or some earlier version? please share...

 

[songbird88]

All of Dakes books wow!!! my dad's version is a 9th printing for 1976, do you also have this?

Any one having these 30 points in the 70’s or some earlier version? please share...

Yes... I have the version with these 30 points. If I had time I would type them in for your viewing. The list is not very convincing. The only one that approaches the quote you mentioned is:

23. Even in heaven certain groups will not be allowed to worship together. (Rev 7:7-17; 14:1-5; 15:2-5)

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The "groups" here are not races... rather they are groups of believers classed together in time. These groups will be made up of all races and nations. Nothing to do with separating of races. The point he presents is weak if not illogical.

 

[IloveJesusMyFather3:16]

Wow! I just read the first post and I just cannot believe it. When people were racist I remember my mom used to say, "When we get in heaven, do you think God is going to seperate us into groups?". I liked that. I can't believe people would put racist things in A BIBLE.

 

[songbird88]

Oh yes... since WoF was mentioned:
Fred Price, who called down Dakes publishing for the items mentioned... is a Rhema graduate and dyed in the wool WOF!
As am I!

 

[songbird88]

Oh yes... since WoF was mentioned:
Fred Price, who called down Dakes publishing for the items mentioned... is a Rhema graduate and dyed in the wool WOF!
As am I!

Also, AOG churches are the most integrated in the country... these are also heavy into WoF.

 

[queenm04]

Yes... I have the version with these 30 points. If I had time I would type them in for your viewing. The list is not very convincing. The only one that approaches the quote you mentioned is:23. Even in heaven certain groups will not be allowed to worship together. (Rev 7:7-17; 14:1-5; 15:2-5) The "groups" here are not races... rather they are groups of believers classed together in time. These groups will be made up of all races and nations. Nothing to do with separating of races. The point he presents is weak if not illogical.

Does the version you have use the title 30 reasons for segregation or 30 reasons for separation?

 

[queenm04]

Apparently, from what i just heard, don't know how true, there were people that were still perpetuating Dake's racist ideas. like the word faith movement, Kenneth Hagin sr, Kenneth Copeland and Kenyon. and black american ministers began to stand up against all these. and Hagin jr was called to apologise for the movement on behalf of his father, and he did not! any one know all these

Theology scholars substantiate or refute, just want to know if any of these is true