Crucifixion Dating of Jesus Christ

cfposter

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Nope. Not a weekly Sabbath. You've not demonstrated any evidence to support your claim.
Sure I have. I have shown that the Jews celebrated their weekly Sabbaths per the moon phases and quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedias. I've quoted early Christian writings showing that on that particular week that the Sabbath was the 15th. You have shown me nothing to show that the Jews observed their Sabbaths according to a solar week.
 
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AFrazier

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Ok, let me start listening. You said that Jesus died on the 15th. Can you show me where it says that in the scriptures? If not, can you show me where you're seeing that He died the next day after He ate the passover?
Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat […] (Matt. 26:17-21).​
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat […] (Mark 14:12-18).​
Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall show you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer (Luke 22:7-15).



Beginning with the first of the several facts, two of the gospels tell us that the day of the Last Supper was the very first day of unleavened bread, which is the 14th day of the month of Nisan. This should not be conflated with any other day of the Passover holiday, as I have heard some attempt to argue. Matthew and Mark both explicitly use the superlative πρώτῃ, meaning the first-most day, or very first day (Matt. 26:17; Mk. 14:12; Ex. 12:18; Ex. 23:18, 34:25; bPesah. 11b, 12b, 4b).

Nor should this be confused with the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, as the King James translation of Matthew 26:17 erroneously suggests. Although interrelated, the time of unleavened bread, and the feast of unleavened bread, are two separate things. The feast is a seven-day holiday beginning on the 15th of Nisan, while the first-most day of unleavened bread, when leaven had to be destroyed and unleavened bread had to be eaten, was the 14th of Nisan.

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even (Exod. 12:18).​

All leaven had to be disposed of on the 14th before the sacrifice of the Passover. It was prohibited beginning at the sixth hour of the day—about noon—on the 14th of Nisan, when it was all burned (bPesah. 11b, 12b, 4b). In accordance with the scriptures, the more pious, according to the Talmud, began searching for leaven as early as sundown on the 13th of Nisan (considered the twilight of the 14th), which was the first of three general searches made in preparation for the holiday. The second search occurred early on the morning of the 14th day, and the final search was at the time when all leaven had to be removed from the home (bPesah. 2b). At the sixth hour of the day (about noon) on the 14th, just before the daily sacrifices (which began shortly thereafter), they burned all leaven (bPesah. 11b). As the scripture states, “Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven” (Exod. 34:25). It was not to be eaten, or even possessed, from that point forward, until the evening of the 21st (Exod. 12:18, 34:25; Deut. 16:6; bPesah. 5a).

Relative to these facts, the 14th is, without question, the first day of unleavened bread, as Exodus 12:15 implies, saying that although “Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread,” it is, “even the first day” that “ye shall put away leaven out of your houses [...]” (Exod. 34:25, cf. Exod. 12:3, 6, 15, 18; Deut. 16:6; bPesah. 5a, 58a; cf. bYoma 28b; Joseph BJ 6.423). Rabbinical and historical literature both agree with this point of view, based on the same scriptural criteria.

The School of R. Ishmael taught: ‘We find that the fourteenth is called the first, as it is said, ‘on the first, on the fourteenth day of the month,’’” (Exod. 12:18) and further on, “Raba said, ‘[It is deduced] from here: ‘Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread’: [that means,] thou shalt not kill the Passover sacrifice while leavened bread is still in existence’ (bPesah. 5a).​

In consideration of these very basic biblical and extra biblical facts, the first day, or even more precisely the very first day, of unleavened bread is the 14th day of Nisan, making the day of the Last Supper one and the same.



The second significant piece of evidence comes from Mark and Luke, who not only tell us that the day of the Last Supper was the first day of unleavened bread, but that it was the day when they killed the Passover, or per Luke, when the Passover must be killed (Mark 14:12, cf. Matthew 26:17-20; Luke 22:7-8, 13-15). This is about as straightforward as it gets when it comes to pinpointing a specific day, even more so than the previous point. From Exodus, we read:

[…] In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house […] And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening (Exod. 12:3, 6).​

The Passover lamb was slain on the 14th day of Nisan. Scripture is quite clear on that point, and every scholar of reputation, so far as I have read, agrees with this view unanimously. It might also be shown that the Passover lamb was slain on the 14th day of Nisan at evening, at the going down of the sun, which rabbinical teachings specify as any time after high noon when the sun starts moving towards the western horizon (Exod. 12:6, Deut. 16:1-6). To be more specific, the Passover sacrifice was slain about 3:00 in the afternoon following the continual daily offering, unless the Eve of the Passover (the 14th) happened to fall on a Friday. In which case, all the day’s sacrifices were moved back an hour, and it was slain about 2:00 in the afternoon so it could be done before the Sabbath set in. We read in the Talmud:

The continual (daily) offering was slaughtered half an hour after the eighth hour, and sacrificed half an hour after the ninth hour; but on the day before Passover, whether that day happened to be a week-day or a Sabbath, it was slaughtered half an hour after the seventh hour, and sacrificed half an hour after the eighth hour. When the day before the Passover happened to be a Friday, it was slaughtered half an hour after the sixth hour, sacrificed half an hour after the seventh hour, and the Passover sacrifice celebrated (immediately) afterwards. (bPesah. 58a; cf bYoma 28b)​

The duty of the tamid properly [begins] from when the evening shadows begin to fall. What is the reason? Because Scripture saith, between the evenings, [meaning] from the time that the sun commences to decline in the west. Therefore on other days of the year, when there are vows and freewill-offerings, in connection with which the Divine Law states, [and he shall burn] upon it the fat of the peace-offerings [he-shelamim], and a Master said, upon it complete [shalem] all the sacrifices, we therefore postpone it two hours and sacrifice it at eight and a half hours. [But] on the eve of Passover, when there is the Passover offering after it, we advance it one hour and sacrifice it at seven and a half hours. When the eve of Passover falls on the eve of the Sabbath, so that there is the roasting too [to be done], for it does not override the Sabbath, we let it stand on its own law, [viz.,] at six and a half hours. (bPesah. 58a)​

And [the controversy of] these Tannaim is like [the controversy of] the other Tannaim in the following Baraitha: There thou shalt sacrifice the passover-offering at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt. R. Eliezer says: At even, you sacrifice; at sunset, you eat; and at the season that thou camest out of Egypt, you must burn [the remainder]. R. Joshua says: At even, you sacrifice; at sunset, you eat; and how long do you continue to eat? Till the season that thou camest out of Egypt (bBer. 9a)​

So as it concerns the second point, “when they killed the Passover,” or, “when the Passover must be killed,” they refer to none other than the 14th day of Nisan. On the particular day of the Last Supper in question, assuming a Thursday for the time being according to the more popular viewpoint on the day of the crucifixion, the lamb would have been slain about the ninth hour, or 3:00 in the afternoon, as Josephus also testifies (Joseph. BJ 6.423).



So, in brief, the afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread according to three gospels. That same afternoon was also the day when the passover had to be sacrificed according to two of the gospels. According to three gospels, Jesus specifically stated that he was going to keep the passover at the goodman's house. He sent two disciples, Peter and John, to procure a room, to prepare the passover, and to have everything ready for them. At the appropriate hour, Jesus came with the remainder of the disciples, they all sat and ate, and Jesus blatantly declares that he had greatly desired to eat that passover with them before he suffered. The last supper was on the 14th of the month.

Jesus was arrested later that night, put on trial, and the condemned the following morning by the Jewish authorities. They took him straightway to Pontius Pilate and had Jesus crucified. This was the next day. The day following the 14th is the 15th. Simple math.
 
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cfposter

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Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat […] (Matt. 26:17-21).​
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat […] (Mark 14:12-18).​
Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall show you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer (Luke 22:7-15).



Beginning with the first of the several facts, two of the gospels tell us that the day of the Last Supper was the very first day of unleavened bread, which is the 14th day of the month of Nisan. This should not be conflated with any other day of the Passover holiday, as I have heard some attempt to argue. Matthew and Mark both explicitly use the superlative πρώτῃ, meaning the first-most day, or very first day (Matt. 26:17; Mk. 14:12; Ex. 12:18; Ex. 23:18, 34:25; bPesah. 11b, 12b, 4b).

Nor should this be confused with the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, as the King James translation of Matthew 26:17 erroneously suggests. Although interrelated, the time of unleavened bread, and the feast of unleavened bread, are two separate things. The feast is a seven-day holiday beginning on the 15th of Nisan, while the first-most day of unleavened bread, when leaven had to be destroyed and unleavened bread had to be eaten, was the 14th of Nisan.

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even (Exod. 12:18).​

All leaven had to be disposed of on the 14th before the sacrifice of the Passover. It was prohibited beginning at the sixth hour of the day—about noon—on the 14th of Nisan, when it was all burned (bPesah. 11b, 12b, 4b). In accordance with the scriptures, the more pious, according to the Talmud, began searching for leaven as early as sundown on the 13th of Nisan (considered the twilight of the 14th), which was the first of three general searches made in preparation for the holiday. The second search occurred early on the morning of the 14th day, and the final search was at the time when all leaven had to be removed from the home (bPesah. 2b). At the sixth hour of the day (about noon) on the 14th, just before the daily sacrifices (which began shortly thereafter), they burned all leaven (bPesah. 11b). As the scripture states, “Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven” (Exod. 34:25). It was not to be eaten, or even possessed, from that point forward, until the evening of the 21st (Exod. 12:18, 34:25; Deut. 16:6; bPesah. 5a).

Relative to these facts, the 14th is, without question, the first day of unleavened bread, as Exodus 12:15 implies, saying that although “Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread,” it is, “even the first day” that “ye shall put away leaven out of your houses [...]” (Exod. 34:25, cf. Exod. 12:3, 6, 15, 18; Deut. 16:6; bPesah. 5a, 58a; cf. bYoma 28b; Joseph BJ 6.423). Rabbinical and historical literature both agree with this point of view, based on the same scriptural criteria.

The School of R. Ishmael taught: ‘We find that the fourteenth is called the first, as it is said, ‘on the first, on the fourteenth day of the month,’’” (Exod. 12:18) and further on, “Raba said, ‘[It is deduced] from here: ‘Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread’: [that means,] thou shalt not kill the Passover sacrifice while leavened bread is still in existence’ (bPesah. 5a).​

In consideration of these very basic biblical and extra biblical facts, the first day, or even more precisely the very first day, of unleavened bread is the 14th day of Nisan, making the day of the Last Supper one and the same.



The second significant piece of evidence comes from Mark and Luke, who not only tell us that the day of the Last Supper was the first day of unleavened bread, but that it was the day when they killed the Passover, or per Luke, when the Passover must be killed (Mark 14:12, cf. Matthew 26:17-20; Luke 22:7-8, 13-15). This is about as straightforward as it gets when it comes to pinpointing a specific day, even more so than the previous point. From Exodus, we read:

[…] In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house […] And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening (Exod. 12:3, 6).​

The Passover lamb was slain on the 14th day of Nisan. Scripture is quite clear on that point, and every scholar of reputation, so far as I have read, agrees with this view unanimously. It might also be shown that the Passover lamb was slain on the 14th day of Nisan at evening, at the going down of the sun, which rabbinical teachings specify as any time after high noon when the sun starts moving towards the western horizon (Exod. 12:6, Deut. 16:1-6). To be more specific, the Passover sacrifice was slain about 3:00 in the afternoon following the continual daily offering, unless the Eve of the Passover (the 14th) happened to fall on a Friday. In which case, all the day’s sacrifices were moved back an hour, and it was slain about 2:00 in the afternoon so it could be done before the Sabbath set in. We read in the Talmud:

The continual (daily) offering was slaughtered half an hour after the eighth hour, and sacrificed half an hour after the ninth hour; but on the day before Passover, whether that day happened to be a week-day or a Sabbath, it was slaughtered half an hour after the seventh hour, and sacrificed half an hour after the eighth hour. When the day before the Passover happened to be a Friday, it was slaughtered half an hour after the sixth hour, sacrificed half an hour after the seventh hour, and the Passover sacrifice celebrated (immediately) afterwards. (bPesah. 58a; cf bYoma 28b)​

The duty of the tamid properly [begins] from when the evening shadows begin to fall. What is the reason? Because Scripture saith, between the evenings, [meaning] from the time that the sun commences to decline in the west. Therefore on other days of the year, when there are vows and freewill-offerings, in connection with which the Divine Law states, [and he shall burn] upon it the fat of the peace-offerings [he-shelamim], and a Master said, upon it complete [shalem] all the sacrifices, we therefore postpone it two hours and sacrifice it at eight and a half hours. [But] on the eve of Passover, when there is the Passover offering after it, we advance it one hour and sacrifice it at seven and a half hours. When the eve of Passover falls on the eve of the Sabbath, so that there is the roasting too [to be done], for it does not override the Sabbath, we let it stand on its own law, [viz.,] at six and a half hours. (bPesah. 58a)​

And [the controversy of] these Tannaim is like [the controversy of] the other Tannaim in the following Baraitha: There thou shalt sacrifice the passover-offering at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt. R. Eliezer says: At even, you sacrifice; at sunset, you eat; and at the season that thou camest out of Egypt, you must burn [the remainder]. R. Joshua says: At even, you sacrifice; at sunset, you eat; and how long do you continue to eat? Till the season that thou camest out of Egypt (bBer. 9a)​

So as it concerns the second point, “when they killed the Passover,” or, “when the Passover must be killed,” they refer to none other than the 14th day of Nisan. On the particular day of the Last Supper in question, assuming a Thursday for the time being according to the more popular viewpoint on the day of the crucifixion, the lamb would have been slain about the ninth hour, or 3:00 in the afternoon, as Josephus also testifies (Joseph. BJ 6.423).



So, in brief, the afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread according to three gospels. That same afternoon was also the day when the passover had to be sacrificed according to two of the gospels. According to three gospels, Jesus specifically stated that he was going to keep the passover at the goodman's house. He sent two disciples, Peter and John, to procure a room, to prepare the passover, and to have everything ready for them. At the appropriate hour, Jesus came with the remainder of the disciples, they all sat and ate, and Jesus blatantly declares that he had greatly desired to eat that passover with them before he suffered. The last supper was on the 14th of the month.

Jesus was arrested later that night, put on trial, and the condemned the following morning by the Jewish authorities. They took him straightway to Pontius Pilate and had Jesus crucified. This was the next day. The day following the 14th is the 15th. Simple math.

Now, I'm going to throw two wrenches into this. I want you to first understand that I also agree that the first day is referred to as the Passover which is by the tradition on the 14th as laid forth in Exodus 12.

If Jesus is the Passover Lamb then He must be killed on the 14th. And indeed I believe He was. That is one wrench.
Second wrench is the following:

Joh 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

Notice Jesus is being led to Pilate (after He had been seized in the Garden which was in the night). Jesus now would have been in captivity on a separate day from when He ate the Passover, and here you have the Priests not going into the Judgment hall because they didn't want to be defiled because they want to eat the Passover. Which as I understand from you would have already occurred when Jesus ate the meal with His disciples.

Can you explain those discrepancies?
 
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AFrazier

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Now, I'm going to throw two wrenches into this. I want you to first understand that I also agree that the first day is referred to as the Passover which is by the tradition on the 14th as laid forth in Exodus 12.

If Jesus is the Passover Lamb then He must be killed on the 14th. And indeed I believe He was. That is one wrench.
Second wrench is the following:

Joh 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

Notice Jesus is being led to Pilate (after He had been seized in the Garden which was in the night). Jesus now would have been in captivity on a separate day from when He ate the Passover, and here you have the Priests not going into the Judgment hall because they didn't want to be defiled because they want to eat the Passover. Which as I understand from you would have already occurred when Jesus ate the meal with His disciples.

Can you explain those discrepancies?
Wrench #1: Jesus didn't have to die on the 14th to be our passover. As I said, you can't dictate historical chronology by theology. The protocols for the passover include: lamb or kid of the first year (Jesus was in his thirties), killed at the temple (Jesus was killed outside of the town), throat cut and blood drained into a bowl (Jesus was crucified), blood sprinkled over the altar fire (Jesus' was poured onto the ground), had to be consumed that night (symbolically, he was "consumed" at the last supper, but the consumption has to occur after the sacrifice, yes?), anything left over had to be burned (he was buried).

If you're going to invalidate three direct scriptures because of a theological position, insisting that he had to be killed on the 14th because of passover protocols, then you have to insist on the same across the board. It's all or nothing. If being crucified on the 15th invalidates his Messiahship, as you suggested, then a failure in any of the passover protocols amounts to the same.

Wrench #2: If it is agreed that the gospels do not contradict each other (and I'm going to assume on this forum that we are in agreement on that), then either the Synoptics are indicating another day, or John is. As I've already laid out in detail, the Synoptics are pretty much cut and dry. Between it being the first day of unleavened bread, and being the day when the passover was slain, and the fact that the disciples made ready the passover, and the fact that Jesus came to the goodman's house to keep the passover . . . there's really no logical basis upon which any reasonable person might speculate that it was any day other than the passover on the 14th of the month.

In which case, John is the oddball. And the explanation is actually quite simple, and documentable. This Passover meal, we know by overall context, was Hagigah, or the Passover of the 15th, also known as the festive offering (bPesah 69a-70b). It was equally obligatory in Jewish law, and while there can only be one day that can be considered the “first” day of unleavened bread, there were two feasts referred to as the Passover. Compare this to Deut. 16:1-2, which includes Passover sacrifices from the herd, which is cattle, whereas the Passover of the 14th has to come from the flock, meaning the sheep or goats. The Talmud makes the same argument.
 
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cfposter

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Wrench #1: Jesus didn't have to die on the 14th to be our passover. As I said, you can't dictate historical chronology by theology. The protocols for the passover include: lamb or kid of the first year (Jesus was in his thirties), killed at the temple (Jesus was killed outside of the town), throat cut and blood drained into a bowl (Jesus was crucified), blood sprinkled over the altar fire (Jesus' was poured onto the ground), had to be consumed that night (symbolically, he was "consumed" at the last supper, but the consumption has to occur after the sacrifice, yes?), anything left over had to be burned (he was buried).

If you're going to invalidate three direct scriptures because of a theological position, insisting that he had to be killed on the 14th because of passover protocols, then you have to insist on the same across the board. It's all or nothing. If being crucified on the 15th invalidates his Messiahship, as you suggested, then a failure in any of the passover protocols amounts to the same.

Wrench #2: If it is agreed that the gospels do not contradict each other (and I'm going to assume on this forum that we are in agreement on that), then either the Synoptics are indicating another day, or John is. As I've already laid out in detail, the Synoptics are pretty much cut and dry. Between it being the first day of unleavened bread, and being the day when the passover was slain, and the fact that the disciples made ready the passover, and the fact that Jesus came to the goodman's house to keep the passover . . . there's really no logical basis upon which any reasonable person might speculate that it was any day other than the passover on the 14th of the month.

In which case, John is the oddball. And the explanation is actually quite simple, and documentable. This Passover meal, we know by overall context, was Hagigah, or the Passover of the 15th, also known as the festive offering (bPesah 69a-70b). It was equally obligatory in Jewish law, and while there can only be one day that can be considered the “first” day of unleavened bread, there were two feasts referred to as the Passover. Compare this to Deut. 16:1-2, which includes Passover sacrifices from the herd, which is cattle, whereas the Passover of the 14th has to come from the flock, meaning the sheep or goats. The Talmud makes the same argument.
Wrench 3:

Then how do you explain that the Betrayal was to occur two days from the 10th. Meaning after the day of the 10th and the 11th? Remember, the Law also says that they are to select and keep the lamb they intend to eat on the 10th.

Exo 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
Exo 12:4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
Mat 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

Let's remember that was TWO days before the Passover feast.

Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Mat 26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
Mat 26:4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.
Mat 26:5 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people.

Wrench 4:

Also notice specifically that they said not on the Feast Day. That would be the Feast Of Unleavened Bread that is referred to on the 15th in Mat 26:5. Meaning specifically the day when they eat of the Lamb prepared the day before.
 
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AFrazier

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Wrench 3:

Then how do you explain that the Betrayal was to occur two days from the 10th. Meaning after the day of the 10th and the 11th? Remember, the Law also says that they are to select and keep the lamb they intend to eat on the 10th.

Exo 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
Exo 12:4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
Mat 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

Let's remember that was TWO days before the Passover feast.

Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Mat 26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
Mat 26:4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.
Mat 26:5 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people.

Wrench 4:

Also notice specifically that they said not on the Feast Day. That would be the Feast Of Unleavened Bread that is referred to on the 15th in Mat 26:5. Meaning specifically the day when they eat of the Lamb prepared the day before.
Wrench #3: Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the 10th. That was lamb selection day. Some chose the lamb of God. Some did not. Whatever else you're trying to suggest is unclear. The gospels don't specify that a specific day was allotted for the betrayal. It happened when it happened.

Wrench #4: Whatever their preferences, they took him when the opportunity presented itself. It says that they discussed how they might take him subtilty. If taking him was to be done in such a manner as to cause an uproar amongst the people, that can hardly be considered subtle. Ergo, outright arresting him would have been a bad idea, and an even worse idea on the feast day. But when Judas offered to betray his whereabouts to them, they seized the opportunity. I don't really see a problem with this.

Also, concerning two days before the passover: They counted inclusively. Just as Jesus would rise "in three days" "on the third day" and "after three days," all of which referred to the same period of time, and all of them including the day of the crucifixion itself, "after two days" and "six days before the passover" are counted the same. Consider by way of example the Roman calendar. Three days before the kalends of January is December 30th. Two days before the kalends would be the 31st, though they call it pridie, meaning "the day before." And the kalends itself, following the pattern, would be one day before the kalends, even though it is the kalends. "After two days is the passover" meant the next day. That day was one day, and the next day was two days. Again, by comparison, Jesus would rise after three days. The day of was one day, the sabbath was two days, and the first day of the week was three days.
 
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cfposter

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Wrench #3: Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the 10th. That was lamb selection day. Some chose the lamb of God. Some did not. Whatever else you're trying to suggest is unclear. The gospels don't specify that a specific day was allotted for the betrayal. It happened when it happened.

Wrench #4: Whatever their preferences, they took him when the opportunity presented itself. It says that they discussed how they might take him subtilty. If taking him was to be done in such a manner as to cause an uproar amongst the people, that can hardly be considered subtle. Ergo, outright arresting him would have been a bad idea, and an even worse idea on the feast day. But when Judas offered to betray his whereabouts to them, they seized the opportunity. I don't really see a problem with this.

Also, concerning two days before the passover: They counted inclusively. Just as Jesus would rise "in three days" "on the third day" and "after three days," all of which referred to the same period of time, and all of them including the day of the crucifixion itself, "after two days" and "six days before the passover" are counted the same. Consider by way of example the Roman calendar. Three days before the kalends of January is December 30th. Two days before the kalends would be the 31st, though they call it pridie, meaning "the day before." And the kalends itself, following the pattern, would be one day before the kalends, even though it is the kalends. "After two days is the passover" meant the next day. That day was one day, and the next day was two days. Again, by comparison, Jesus would rise after three days. The day of was one day, the sabbath was two days, and the first day of the week was three days.

And so why did they crucified Him on the Feast day when they said they wouldn't?

Yes, I know how the Kalends work. He was crucified on the 8th of the Kalends of April (31 AD). Jesus was only in the Tomb for one day and two nights.
 
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AFrazier

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And so why did they crucified Him on the Feast day when they said they wouldn't?

Yes, I know how the Kalends work. He was crucified on the 8th of the Kalends of April (31 AD). Jesus was only in the Tomb for one day and two nights.
They didn't actually say they "wouldn't." It was advised that they not take him on the feast day. But as I already said, whatever they discussed, planned, intended, etc. became irrelevant when the opportunity afforded by Judas was presented to them. Do keep in mind that whatever date one chooses to associate with the crucifixion, Jesus was still crucified on a feast day, whether the passover feast of the 14th, or the hagigah passover feast of the 15th. So, try not to read too much into the considerations and discussion the priests had amongst themselves. Jesus was still taken and crucified on a feast day. He was also tried publicly, condemned before Pontius Pilate by the priests' approbation publicly, and crucified publicly. The only thing they were trying to avoid was a public disturbance in the taking of him. And they managed that via Judas.
 
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cfposter

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They didn't actually say they "wouldn't." It was advised that they not take him on the feast day. But as I already said, whatever they discussed, planned, intended, etc. became irrelevant when the opportunity afforded by Judas was presented to them. Do keep in mind that whatever date one chooses to associate with the crucifixion, Jesus was still crucified on a feast day, whether the passover feast of the 14th, or the hagigah passover feast of the 15th. So, try not to read too much into the considerations and discussion the priests had amongst themselves. Jesus was still taken and crucified on a feast day. He was also tried publicly, condemned before Pontius Pilate by the priests' approbation publicly, and crucified publicly. The only thing they were trying to avoid was a public disturbance in the taking of him. And they managed that via Judas.
The scriptures make it CLEAR that Jesus was crucified on the Preparation of the Passover. This means it was the 14th when Jesus was crucified:

Joh 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

Joh 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
Joh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

Let's remember it was the first day of the week. This means that the Sabbath (High Day) being the Feast of Unleavened Bread had just past. And this was the 3rd day when Jesus rose. This further proves that Jesus was NOT crucified on the 15th. But on the 14th.

Joh 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

A High Day is when a Feast day occurs on the Sabbath (to me this is every Feast of Unleavened Bread). But the Bible makes it clear it was a high day:

Joh_19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Notice that Jesus was NOT to remain on the cross on the 15th. (Feast of Unleavened Bread).

So now the question to you is - what is your meaning of a High Day?
 
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AFrazier

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The scriptures make it CLEAR that Jesus was crucified on the Preparation of the Passover. This means it was the 14th when Jesus was crucified:

Joh 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

Joh 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
Joh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

Let's remember it was the first day of the week. This means that the Sabbath (High Day) being the Feast of Unleavened Bread had just past. And this was the 3rd day when Jesus rose. This further proves that Jesus was NOT crucified on the 15th. But on the 14th.

Joh 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

A High Day is when a Feast day occurs on the Sabbath (to me this is every Feast of Unleavened Bread). But the Bible makes it clear it was a high day:

Joh_19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Notice that Jesus was NOT to remain on the cross on the 15th. (Feast of Unleavened Bread).

So now the question to you is - what is your meaning of a High Day?
1: It was the day of preparation, or Friday, of passover week. That's all that means. The standard nomenclature for the 14th is the Eve of the Passover, not the preparation of the passover.

2: A high day is a holy day. No such holy day is designated to a specific day of the week.

3: The 16th was a high day. It was first fruits and the waving of the sheaf. If Jesus was crucified on a Friday, which he was, and he was crucified on the 15th, which he was, then the 16th, first fruits, the waving of the sheaf, and the beginning of the count to Pentecost, was on the sabbath, making that sabbath a high day.
 
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cfposter

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1: It was the day of preparation, or Friday, of passover week. That's all that means. The standard nomenclature for the 14th is the Eve of the Passover, not the preparation of the passover.

2: A high day is a holy day. No such holy day is designated to a specific day of the week.

3: The 16th was a high day. It was first fruits and the waving of the sheaf. If Jesus was crucified on a Friday, which he was, and he was crucified on the 15th, which he was, then the 16th, first fruits, the waving of the sheaf, and the beginning of the count to Pentecost, was on the sabbath, making that sabbath a high day.
So let me understand correctly. Your saying a High Day is a Holy Day but that the 15th, The Feast of Unleavened Bread was NOT a High Day but that the 16th was?

By the way the counting to Pentecost starts with the counting on the 16th as the FIRST DAY of the week. Because BY LAW, the count of the Feast of Weeks was done by counting SABBATHS, 7- complete:

Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

You see the Feast of Unleavened Bread is ALWAYS a High Day because it is the weekly sabbath and Holy Festival Day. And the NEXT Day is always the Feast of First Fruits of the Barley harvest. Which is always on the FIRST Day of the week. So you say nothing is tied to a Week day, but the law refutes that.

There is nothing in the law that says you can count from any other day except the day (morrow) after the Sabbath.
 
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So let me understand correctly. Your saying a High Day is a Holy Day but that the 15th, The Feast of Unleavened Bread was NOT a High Day but that the 16th was?

By the way the counting to Pentecost starts with the counting on the 16th as the FIRST DAY of the week. Because BY LAW, the count of the Feast of Weeks was done by counting SABBATHS, 7- complete:

Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

You see the Feast of Unleavened Bread is ALWAYS a High Day because it is the weekly sabbath and Holy Festival Day. And the NEXT Day is always the Feast of First Fruits of the Barley harvest. Which is always on the FIRST Day of the week. So you say nothing is tied to a Week day, but the law refutes that.

There is nothing in the law that says you can count from any other day except the day (morrow) after the Sabbath.
Brother, I answered your questions. I don’t really have the patience to continue educating you on all the things you have wrong.

I didn’t say the 15th wasn’t a high day. I said that the 16th was. Both are high days in their own right, but only one of them was going to fall on the Sabbath that year.

The count to Pentecost began on the 16th. This is documented in the Talmud, Josephus, and the Scholium to the Megallit Ta’anit. The 16th can be any day of the week. The Sabbath from which it is counted is the 15th of the month. There was a huge dispute about that between the Sadducees and the Pharisees. The Pharisees won the argument, fixing the count from the 16th following the holiday Sabbath, and not from the first day of the week following the weekly Sabbath.

Seriously, if you’re going to come out in public with your arguments, you have a responsibility to do your homework first. Don’t berate and condescend to people before you truly know what you’re talking about. We were good when you were asking questions and hopefully learning. But now you’re reverting to that state of know-it-all. I won’t discuss this with you if your cup is already full.
 
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cfposter

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Brother, I answered your questions. I don’t really have the patience to continue educating you on all the things you have wrong.

I didn’t say the 15th wasn’t a high day. I said that the 16th was. Both are high days in their own right, but only one of them was going to fall on the Sabbath that year.

The count to Pentecost began on the 16th. This is documented in the Talmud, Josephus, and the Scholium to the Megallit Ta’anit. The 16th can be any day of the week. The Sabbath from which it is counted is the 15th of the month. There was a huge dispute about that between the Sadducees and the Pharisees. The Pharisees won the argument, fixing the count from the 16th following the holiday Sabbath, and not from the first day of the week following the weekly Sabbath.

Seriously, if you’re going to come out in public with your arguments, you have a responsibility to do your homework first. Don’t berate and condescend to people before you truly know what you’re talking about. We were good when you were asking questions and hopefully learning. But now you’re reverting to that state of know-it-all. I won’t discuss this with you if your cup is already full.

Yes, the count did begin on the 16th. It always begins that day. But you missing the point. That day is ALWAYS the 1st of the week. Did you get that? You can't show anywhere that the 16th doesn't fall on the 1st day of the week. For that matter you can't show where the weekly sabbath ever fell on another day besides the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th of the month.

The 16th, During the Time of Jesus Crucifixion could not be ANY Day of the week. In fact, suggesting such shows your ignorance of the Hebrew calendar adjustments including the fact that it was Hillel II that made the adjustments of the Lunar based Weeks to the Fixed solar days of the calendar well after the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD. He had to conform their calendar to a fixed calendar per Roman requirements.

You can stop with you belittling also, it not in character of a Christian. I'm giving you good information here that refutes you and you should go back and learn it.
 
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AFrazier

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Yes, the count did begin on the 16th. It always begins that day. But you missing the point. That day is ALWAYS the 1st of the week. Did you get that? You can't show anywhere that the 16th doesn't fall on the 1st day of the week. For that matter you can't show where the weekly sabbath ever fell on another day besides the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th of the month.

The 16th, During the Time of Jesus Crucifixion could not be ANY Day of the week. In fact, suggesting such shows your ignorance of the Hebrew calendar adjustments including the fact that it was Hillel II that made the adjustments of the Lunar based Weeks to the Fixed solar days of the calendar well after the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD. He had to conform their calendar to a fixed calendar per Roman requirements.

You can stop with you belittling also, it not in character of a Christian. I'm giving you good information here that refutes you and you should go back and learn it.
So . . . you’re wrong. And that’s the end of this conversation.
 
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cfposter

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So . . . you’re wrong. And that’s the end of this conversation.
Just think about it. Go back and LOOK again at what you believe and what I'm saying. Do you really believe that God will go through all this effort to teach the Israelites about killing the lamb on the 14th to have Jesus the Passover Lamb to be killed on the 15th? Do you not see the problem there?
 
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Just think about it. Go back and LOOK again at what you believe and what I'm saying. Do you really believe that God will go through all this effort to teach the Israelites about killing the lamb on the 14th to have Jesus the Passover Lamb to be killed on the 15th? Do you not see the problem there?
I see that you are stubborn and don’t believe plain scripture. Just quit. You’re wrong. I’m not going to argue this with you any further.
 
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