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Physical & Life Sciences
Creation & Evolution
Creationist explain the Miocene please
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<blockquote data-quote="ChordatesLegacy" data-source="post: 47964862" data-attributes="member: 193033"><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">OK let&#8217;s look at the Cenozoic era, the first Epoch is the Paleocene 65.5-55.5, (Rob feel free to give us your time frame for the Paleocene) and what it can tell us about that time.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">For one thing the Cenozoic fossil record contains the first large (Larger than humans) mammals, here are a few, none of which occur today.</span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><a href="http://www.paleocene-mammals.de/large_herbivores.htm" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><span style="font-size: 12px">LINK</span></span></a></p><p> </p><p><img src="http://www.paleocene-mammals.de/pantodonts.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p><em><strong>Restorations of some pantodonts of the North American Paleocene. A. Coryphodon. B. Barylambda. C Titanoides primaevus. D. Caenolambda. E. Pantolambda caviric</strong><strong>tus. E. Pantolambda bathmodon. After Simons (1960).</strong></em></p><p></p><p><em>Titanoides, an animal of approximately 150 kg, had saberlike upper canines, large front limbs and strong claws at its feet. No mammal of today has a comparable anatomy of the limbs, but several extinct groups like the Eocene to Pleistocene chalicotheres show similar adaptations. Titanoides may have utilized its claws to dig for food or to tear tough plants.</em></p><p><em><img src="http://www.paleocene-mammals.de/titanoides_kelly_taylor.JPG" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></em></p><p> </p><p><strong><em>Life restoration of Titanoides primaevus. With its claws the animal may have laid bare underground roots and tubers, which were then pulled up by the hooklike lower canines and sliced off by the sabrelike upper canines. Copyright by </em></strong><a href="http://www.keltationsart.com/" target="_blank"><strong><em>Kelly Taylor</em></strong></a><strong><em>.</em></strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><span style="font-size: 12px">Below is a very well preserved and fossilised Paleocene mammal, fossilisation like this takes time, far more time than there is in the creationist model.</span></span></p><p><strong><em><img src="http://www.paleocene-mammals.de/apatemys.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></em></strong></p><p><strong><em>Skeleton of the apatemyid <strong>Apatemys chardini, preserved together with the fish Knightia eocaenica</strong><strong> in the Early Eocene lake sediments of the Fossil Butte Member, Wyoming. The skull is surprisingly masssive for such a delicate skeleton, and the tail is extremely long. Photo J. Weinstein, provided by W. von Koenigswald.</strong></em></strong></p><p> </p><p><em>NONE OF THESE MAMMALS ARE EXTANT TODAY.</em></p><p> </p><p><em>and then there's Paleocene geology.</em></p><p> </p><p><img src="http://www.brandonu.ca/academic/environmental/images/Goodlands_Creek_outcrop.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><em>Outcrop of coal in Goodlands Member (Turtle Mountain Fm), in a creek bank, W of Hwy 21, near Turtle Mountain, MB. Early Paleocene lignite (brown coal) was mined here 1890-1943. These coals contain a well preserved microflora. Sept. 16, 2005. </em></p><p> </p><p><em><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2231/1805985457_1af8d3ce12.jpg?v=0" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></em></p><p><em>The K-T boundary. The light brown sediment is from the late cretaceous. The gray line represents the K-T boundary, when an asteroid the size of Mt. Everest slammed into earth, bringing an end to the dinosaur's reign. the boundary is rich in iridium, a substance rare on earth but abundant in asteroids and comets, supporting the impact theory. The black sediment is from a Paleocene coal swamp, when mammals began to take over after the dinosaurs. </em></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><em><img src="http://www.athro.com/geo/trp/gub/coalex1.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></em></p><p><em>Peat exposed to heat and pressure from burial beneath other sediments becomes compressed and chemicaly changes into low grade coals such as this lignite, and under further heat and pressure is converted to higher grade coals. The pressure from overlying sediments that bury a peat bed will compact the coal. Peats transform to low grade lignites when they are compressed to about 20% of their original thickness. Lignite typicaly transforms to bituminous coal as it is compressed further and heated to between 100 and 200°C. This drives much of the water and other volitiles from the coal. Longer exposure to elevated temperature will further drive volatiles from the coal, and drive chemical reactions that produce anthracite. Anthracite coals are typicaly compressed to 5-10% of the orginal thickness of the peat bed, and contain less than 10% water and other volatiles (</em><a href="http://cgi.dreamscape.com/mole00/refs/refs.cgi/Nichols___1999_" target="_blank"><span style="color: #000033">Nichols, 1999</span></a><em>). </em></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'">So a couple of questions.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Your time frame for the Paleocene.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'">How the mammal fauna is so different to that seen today</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'">How you can have coal formation and the geological sequence in the creationist time frame.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Please stick to the Paleocene for now</span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ChordatesLegacy, post: 47964862, member: 193033"] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]OK let’s look at the Cenozoic era, the first Epoch is the Paleocene 65.5-55.5, (Rob feel free to give us your time frame for the Paleocene) and what it can tell us about that time.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]For one thing the Cenozoic fossil record contains the first large (Larger than humans) mammals, here are a few, none of which occur today.[/FONT][/COLOR] [URL="http://www.paleocene-mammals.de/large_herbivores.htm"][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]LINK[/SIZE][/FONT][/URL] [IMG]http://www.paleocene-mammals.de/pantodonts.gif[/IMG] [I][B]Restorations of some pantodonts of the North American Paleocene. A. Coryphodon. B. Barylambda. C Titanoides primaevus. D. Caenolambda. E. Pantolambda caviric[/B][B]tus. E. Pantolambda bathmodon. After Simons (1960).[/B][/I] [I]Titanoides, an animal of approximately 150 kg, had saberlike upper canines, large front limbs and strong claws at its feet. No mammal of today has a comparable anatomy of the limbs, but several extinct groups like the Eocene to Pleistocene chalicotheres show similar adaptations. Titanoides may have utilized its claws to dig for food or to tear tough plants.[/I] [I][IMG]http://www.paleocene-mammals.de/titanoides_kelly_taylor.JPG[/IMG][/I] [B][I]Life restoration of Titanoides primaevus. With its claws the animal may have laid bare underground roots and tubers, which were then pulled up by the hooklike lower canines and sliced off by the sabrelike upper canines. Copyright by [/I][/B][URL="http://www.keltationsart.com/"][B][I]Kelly Taylor[/I][/B][/URL][B][I].[/I][/B] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Below is a very well preserved and fossilised Paleocene mammal, fossilisation like this takes time, far more time than there is in the creationist model.[/SIZE][/FONT] [B][I][IMG]http://www.paleocene-mammals.de/apatemys.jpg[/IMG][/I][/B] [B][I]Skeleton of the apatemyid [B]Apatemys chardini, preserved together with the fish Knightia eocaenica[/B][B] in the Early Eocene lake sediments of the Fossil Butte Member, Wyoming. The skull is surprisingly masssive for such a delicate skeleton, and the tail is extremely long. Photo J. Weinstein, provided by W. von Koenigswald.[/B][/I][/B] [I]NONE OF THESE MAMMALS ARE EXTANT TODAY.[/I] [I]and then there's Paleocene geology.[/I] [IMG]http://www.brandonu.ca/academic/environmental/images/Goodlands_Creek_outcrop.jpg[/IMG][I]Outcrop of coal in Goodlands Member (Turtle Mountain Fm), in a creek bank, W of Hwy 21, near Turtle Mountain, MB. Early Paleocene lignite (brown coal) was mined here 1890-1943. These coals contain a well preserved microflora. Sept. 16, 2005. [/I] [I][IMG]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2231/1805985457_1af8d3ce12.jpg?v=0[/IMG][/I] [I]The K-T boundary. The light brown sediment is from the late cretaceous. The gray line represents the K-T boundary, when an asteroid the size of Mt. Everest slammed into earth, bringing an end to the dinosaur's reign. the boundary is rich in iridium, a substance rare on earth but abundant in asteroids and comets, supporting the impact theory. The black sediment is from a Paleocene coal swamp, when mammals began to take over after the dinosaurs. [/I] [I][IMG]http://www.athro.com/geo/trp/gub/coalex1.jpg[/IMG][/I] [I]Peat exposed to heat and pressure from burial beneath other sediments becomes compressed and chemicaly changes into low grade coals such as this lignite, and under further heat and pressure is converted to higher grade coals. The pressure from overlying sediments that bury a peat bed will compact the coal. Peats transform to low grade lignites when they are compressed to about 20% of their original thickness. Lignite typicaly transforms to bituminous coal as it is compressed further and heated to between 100 and 200°C. This drives much of the water and other volitiles from the coal. Longer exposure to elevated temperature will further drive volatiles from the coal, and drive chemical reactions that produce anthracite. Anthracite coals are typicaly compressed to 5-10% of the orginal thickness of the peat bed, and contain less than 10% water and other volatiles ([/I][URL="http://cgi.dreamscape.com/mole00/refs/refs.cgi/Nichols___1999_"][COLOR=#000033]Nichols, 1999[/COLOR][/URL][I]). [/I] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]So a couple of questions.[/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Your time frame for the Paleocene.[/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]How the mammal fauna is so different to that seen today[/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]How you can have coal formation and the geological sequence in the creationist time frame.[/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Please stick to the Paleocene for now[/FONT][/SIZE] [/QUOTE]
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