Could Someone Explain Calvinism?

[JoeP222w]

While I appreciate your information, it doesn't answer the question. How can God, who is love, create people just to dump them into hell because He hasn't elected them?

Why do you deny God's autonomous free will to do with His creation as He chooses?

 

[JoeP222w]

If I am not elected, even though I pray, go to Church, live a pious life, have been born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit, He has created ME just to go to hell.

This understanding is not Biblical.

You would not be born again and filled with the Holy Spirit if you were not elect. It is impossible to born again and to be not elect, by definition.

Also, praying, going to church, living a pious life does not mean you are a saved believer in Jesus Christ.

You see, even though you may THINK you are elected, you don't KNOW for sure, as God does not reveal where you end up until after you are dead.

Again, this is not a Biblical view.

1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, (5) but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: (6) whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

 

[Geralt]

"if He loves everyone", that is the presumption you need to challenge.

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

 

[High Fidelity]

Check out this post.

 

[~Anastasia~]

You have displayed many common misconceptions and mischaracterizations and oversimplification of Calvinism.

I for one would be interested to see that explained in detail, if you or anyone else is so inclined. Not trying to be argumentative (I have no desire to "argue" any of the points) but if what Open Heart posted is not what is meant by TULIP, I would like to understand what IS meant?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Also, praying, going to church, living a pious life does not mean you are a saved believer in Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, (5) but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: (6) whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

I don't understand why you used 1 John 2:4-6 to disagree with the statement.

It may not be a perfect description of a Christian, but in trying to explain how we live, yes, we pray, go to Church, live a pious life - those things coupled with belief ARE living the life of a believer, keeping the commandments of God.

I know of people raised in Calvinism who believe in Christ, seek to follow God, yet fear they are simply "not elect" and are going to hell. This is terribly grievous to me. Perhaps they misunderstand what Calvinism teaches. I don't know. But using your post, I can't be sure.

Would you (or anyone else) care to comment on that scenario?

I guess for the Calvinist, it would seem to hinge on the assurance of being elect?

 

[Your Alli]

I didn't say it wasn't!

But that is not what He has said, and to throw all those souls into hell because HE chose not to elect them is the worst type of monster.

Yes, let's say "all" are created by God to go to Hell ...

Then all living are unelected, destined to face our fear of the certainty that lies ahead... "Hell"

Salvation begins and ends with Christ.

Christ suffered and faced this same fate, proving His humanity.

All unelected (all human beings) are faced with a simple choice in life, "believe in The Son (Christ) who God sent to overcome this fate and your soul will be saved"

Your Alli

 

[Ron Gurley]

THE CALVINIST " T. U. L. I. P." REFUTED BY SCRIPTURE? PRO's and CON's
PRO:
http://carm.org/calvinism....neutral good explanation!
Calvinism Refuted
Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist
Calvinism Refuted By Scripture
Reformed Theology Doctrines of Grace CALVINISM REFUTED

CON:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/MacArthur_5pts.html...watch his definitions of TULIP?
Five points of calvinism
Does the Bible Teach Calvinism? A Look at ”the Five Points of Calvinism”

Would Calvin and his primary work agree or disagree with THESE 5 points ...stated in THESE ways ??

(1) Sinners are utterly helpless to redeem themselves or to contribute anything meritorious toward their own salvation (Rom 8:7-8).

{saved by undeserved Grace through spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF...NOT by "works...Ephesians 2)

(2) God is sovereign in the exercise of His saving Will (Eph 1:4-5).

{God is all-everything and sovreign in ALL. He fore-knows who will accept or reject His gracious provision for salvation}

(3) Christ died as a substitute who bore the full weight of God's wrath on behalf of "His people",

and his atoning work is efficacious for their salvation (Isa. 53:5).
{ Jesus the God-Man was the perfect "substitutionary atonement" FOR: ALL men ALL sins All time. Man's "free will" chooses to accept / reject}

(4) God's saving purpose cannot be thwarted (John 6:37), meaning none of Christ's true sheep will ever be lost (John 10:27-29).

{ God's will WILL be done in ALL things. His work in salvation cannot be UNDONE. No loss of spiritual POSITION, only forgiveness of Sins.

Eternal security for the saved spirits of true believers. Once an adopted son...Always an adopted son.}

(5) God assures the perseverance of His elect (Jude 24; Phil 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5).

{DEFINE TERMS: "perseverance"..."elect" . God the Holy Spirit indwells ALL believers, comforts them, sanctifies them, strengthens them, guides them into the will of God and into good works prepared for them. But saved man continues to sin ...he falls short of God's perfection.

BEGIN a battle in Spirit / Soul between his old natural man and his NEW creature in Christ. BUT he can claim "forgiveness of sins" as a
benefit of salvation purchased by the blood of Jesus the God-Man.

 

[redleghunter]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

Monk Brendan, you are correct and so are the Calvinists.

You are correct as there are multiple verses which show God's Grace and Mercy that none should perish. There are also corresponding words which say God chooses us. This is the Biblical Paradox which many outside the Christian faith would call a 'contradiction.' It's not a contradiction. It can't be as we know as Christians our God is not a God of confusion and His Words do not come back to Him empty.

An example Jesus Christ gave us:

Matthew 22New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Wedding Feast

22 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[marawuti]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

Looking at how you titled your post and placed a position statement in the last sentence, I interpret your post as a request to defend the absolutism of doctrines such as Calvinism.

So, lets apply a little logic. If God offers us salvation through His son’s sacrifice for the express purpose of being with Him for eternity, why bother. If He simply wants us to be with Him He could simply have created us in heaven. No fuss no drama.

There must be a purpose for this life other than to be with God in heaven, else He would have put us there to begin with. And why would He create hell if He didn’t need to.

Conclusion: We’re not all going to heaven. This is to your first question.

The purpose of this life must have something to do with us being exposed to and experiencing sin and/or our separation from God.

To your position statement that “. . . God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us”. I see no scriptural evidence for this.

 

[bsd058]

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) - We are born again by God's will and not our own

Minor Correction:
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) - Sin has so affected man that man can in no way please God. He does not have the ability or desire to do so apart from God's grace.
The logical consequence is, of course, that we are born again by God's will and not our own.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Calvinism in a nutshell:

"Father, we had devised for ourselves many useless follies but You have placed Your word before me like a torch and You have touched my heart that I may hold in abomination all other MERITS save those of Jesus." John Calvin, Great Controversy, 221.

For "The MERITS of Jesus blot out transgressions and clothe us with the robe of righteousness woven in the loom of Heaven." Evangelism, 186.

Therefore "The MERITS of Christ's sacrifice are SUFFICIENT to plead before the Father in our behalf." Steps to Christ, 36.

For "Looking unto Jesus and TRUSTING in His MERITS we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, vol.5, 744.

 

[afishamongmany]

I know of people raised in Calvinism who believe in Christ, seek to follow God, yet fear they are simply "not elect" and are going to hell. This is terribly grievous to me. Perhaps they misunderstand what Calvinism teaches. I don't know. But using your post, I can't be sure.

Would you (or anyone else) care to comment on that scenario?
I guess for the Calvinist, it would seem to hinge on the assurance of being elect?

Hi Anastasia,
Yes it's so sad that there are christian parents and christian churches that seem unable to bring those they have a responsibility for to an assurance of salvation.
When God regenerates a soul to eternal life The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in that person for ever. It is from Him that the assurance comes.
1 John 4:13 and 1 John5:10-13
Are there those who have been truly born again who lack that assurance? Sure, there is a spiritual battle going on and babies in growing up may go through all sorts of problems.
As to understanding what calvinist theology really is (as opposed to what people think they know it is) I highly recommend the link given in post#44. Easy enough to digest and assimilate even if you don't agree with it. But at least you'll know what it is that you don't agree with.
Go well
><>

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hi Anastasia,
Yes it's so sad that there are christian parents and christian churches that seem unable to bring those they have a responsibility for to an assurance of salvation.
When God regenerates a soul to eternal life The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in that person for ever. It is from Him that the assurance comes.
1 John 4:13 and 1 John5:10-13
Are there those who have been truly born again who lack that assurance? Sure, there is a spiritual battle going on and babies in growing up may go through all sorts of problems.
As to understanding what calvinist theology really is (as opposed to what people think they know it is) I highly recommend the link given in post#44. Easy enough to digest and assimilate even if you don't agree with it. But at least you'll know what it is that you don't agree with.
Go well
><>

Thank you. I'll have a look.

Indeed ... I suspect that in the final analysis there will be things I disagree with, but I don't like to take a knee-jerk reaction against doctrines without even understanding them. It is much easier for us to discuss all kinds of things and respect one another if we understand each other. And I often find that we are closer in beliefs that it might appear, especially if only a caricature of a belief is compared.

Thank you.

 

[DingDing]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. ...

I don't think God gets this idea either.

 

[St_Worm2]

As to understanding what calvinist theology really is (as opposed to what people think they know it is) I highly recommend the link given in post#44. Easy enough to digest and assimilate even if you don't agree with it. But at least you'll know what it is that you don't agree with.

I agree. Perhaps AMR's post could be used as the basis/starting point for our discussion. Of course, if we did that, we'd end up discussing/learning about what "Calvinism" really is/what it actually teaches (and what it does not), but where's the fun in that

In case this idea is of interest to anyone, here again is the link to AMR's post: Five-Point Calvinism (T.U.L.I.P) Is it supported by the canon of scripture?

--David

 

[Episaw]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

Calvinism was the product of John Calvin, who believed that God chooses who will be saved according to his foreknowledge so he does not attempt to save those who will not be saved because of their rejection of his son Jesus again according to his foreknowledge.

This is possible because God knows everything from alpha to omega.

The other fact is you can't save someone who does not want to be saved and the scripture is clear that there are those who are going to reject Christ regardless.

So in this respect, Calvinism is not so strange. Take away the foreknowledge of God and you have a different story entirely.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Everything you described is what we believe as Arminians in the SEA. Other Arminians may disagree with some, but certainly not all, of your points but at least within the SEA the only thing we would challenge you on is that there is election but not in the Calvinist sense.

Sorry, but I like a liturgical service, something that most Protestants will have nothing to do with.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Why do you deny God's autonomous free will to do with His creation as He chooses?

God does have free will. So do we. God is sovereign, but He will not mess with our free will, otherwise we are just robots. If I am a robot, then preaching Calvinism to me will do no good.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Also, praying, going to church, living a pious life does not mean you are a saved believer in Jesus Christ.

You see? I am not allowed a free will, under the laws of Calvin. Without free will I am just a meat robot, going through the motions that God has planned from the foundation of the earth.

Granted that praying, going to church and living a pious life is not all that makes up a Christian. But I love Jesus. He is the most important person in my life. And I serve Him out of love, not out of fear, not because I am a meat robot, but because God loved me first, and made me with free will, capable of choosing to love and be loved by God. Calvin's theology has nothing to do with that.

You would not be born again and filled with the Holy Spirit if you were not elect. It is impossible to born again and to be not elect, by definition.

Supposedly, according to Calvin's theology, the "saved" have this assurance of salvation, and have this assurance of never being able to fall into sin again. Which is balderdash. You can't point to a single person, from Pope St John Paul the Great down to yourself that, once "saved" have always been able to resist temptation, and have never let an unkind thought cross their mind.