Could not believe

[FreeGrace2]

As pertaining to God's involvement, you mention three things:

1. By telling Isaiah to take a message to the people that they would reject.
2. God's command as "Go to the people and render their hearts insensitive".
3. The problem is that those who think that God directly turns hearts against Him will simply not accept what really occurred

What do we have here but a 'maybe,' 'yes' and 'no' respectively?

We know the people did reject the message from how Paul explained what Isaiah wrote. They "closed their eyes". That's what they did. So #1 is yes.
#2 is yes, as you correctly note. And why would #3 be no? Why would God directly turn hearts against Himself. He certainly provides no excuse for anyobne who does turn against Him. (Rom 1:20).

How is it somehow naive to believe that God did it and, therefore, not accept what really occurred?

I believe that Paul's quotation provides the answer; they "closed their eyes" when the message was given. They rejected it. God did not close their eyes. They did it themselves, to themselves.

Is not the Living God the I AM?

Absolutely. But why would He directly cause people to turn from Him, which is sin?

The only reason I can conclude for position is that you are equating "render their hearts insensitive" with active promotion of sin, but this idea should completely disappear when it is preceded by "the voice of the LORD".

No, I equate "render rtheir hearts insensitive" with they "closed their eyes/ears". When Isaiah gave the message, they actively refused to listen. That is what "render their hearts insensitive" means.

My only conclusion is as follows:

• You may either say God divided darkness from light or you may say that darkness and not God divided itself from light.

Of course He did it. But I see no connection between this and the people described by Isaiah.

• You may either say Christ sets man at variance with his brother or you may say that brother and not Christ sets himself at variance.

I believe He does so by providing the choice, and by men choosing between the choices, creates the variance.

I just cannot see how Christ or God the Father would actively cause people to turn from Him. He provides the choices and by their own actions they harden themselves by their continual rejection. Like Pharoah.

• You may either say that the Gospel is the power of God or you may say that the Gospel is the power of man and not God.

Of course Rom 1:16 tells us that the gospel is the power of God. Which has nothing to do with God causing anyone to turn from Him. People either accept what He says, or they reject what He says.

I do hope you will at least reevaluate your position on this matter, FreeGrace2. Thank you for the discussion and have a good weekend.

Thanks. I hope this was helpful in clarifying my position.

 

[ForceofTime]

We know the people did reject the message from how Paul explained what Isaiah wrote. They "closed their eyes". That's what they did. So #1 is yes.
#2 is yes, as you correctly note. And why would #3 be no? Why would God directly turn hearts against Himself. He certainly provides no excuse for anyobne who does turn against Him. (Rom 1:20).

I believe that Paul's quotation provides the answer; they "closed their eyes" when the message was given. They rejected it. God did not close their eyes. They did it themselves, to themselves.

Absolutely. But why would He directly cause people to turn from Him, which is sin?

No, I equate "render their hearts insensitive" with they "closed their eyes/ears". When Isaiah gave the message, they actively refused to listen. That is what "render their hearts insensitive" means.

Of course He did it. But I see no connection between this and the people described by Isaiah.

I believe He does so by providing the choice, and by men choosing between the choices, creates the variance.

I just cannot see how Christ or God the Father would actively cause people to turn from Him. He provides the choices and by their own actions they harden themselves by their continual rejection. Like Pharoah.

Of course Rom 1:16 tells us that the gospel is the power of God. Which has nothing to do with God causing anyone to turn from Him. People either accept what He says, or they reject what He says.

Thanks. I hope this was helpful in clarifying my position.

John 9:39 KJV And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Does Christ make those who see blind or not? Yes or no.

If yes, then all this is much ado about nothing.

If no, then what are you calling sin and against whom are you arguing?

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 9:39 KJV And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Does Christ make those who see blind or not? Yes or no.

If yes, then all this is much ado about nothing.

If no, then what are you calling sin and against whom are you arguing?

The issue is how Christ makes people blind. RT claims that He does so apart from their will. i.e., they don't have a choice or will in the matter.

I believe He makes blind by bringing truth which is repeatedly rejected, which is what makes them blind.

What is your impression of what Paul said?
Acts 25-27
25 And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, 26 saying,
‘Go to this people and say,
“You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
27 For the heart of this people has become dull,
And with their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes;
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.”’

 

[George95]

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Topic closed at OP Request.

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