Corporal punishment - does it encourage children to be violent?

[tgg]

Hi,

What do you all think about corporal punishment for children? This has been discussed on another forum, but I'd be interested to know what us Australian Christians generally think to it.

Conservative Christians tend to point at Proverbs 22:15 and Proverbs 23:13-14 as a means of justifying it.

As a result, King Solomon's son Rehobaum became a much hated ruler and at one point he had to flee to Jerusalem to avoid being assasinated.

A recent study has shown that one out of three boys develops a genetic problem that will cause him to indulge in criminal and anti-social behaviour later in life.

OTOH, many Christians believe that because the Bible is the inerrant word of God, King Solomons parenting techniques were reflective of God's expectations.

What do the rest of you think to this?


tgg

 

[MOTH]

Hey, tgg, trust you to raise another controversial subject, hey! It's a double edged sword, I feel. In my experience, children raised with love, and parents who spend time with them, seldom need corporal punishment. Some kids learn fast like I did. I was only hit once by a parent (for outright disobedience) I deserved it. On the other hand, I've seen kids who've been spanked for every conceivable misdemeaner, and they become dessensitised. (I worked in a crisis centre for 10 years) However, there are always exceptions to the norm. Some kids need a tap on the bum and some kids just need a telling off. Some kids are just compliant. Some kids are defiant. Here's the rub. Compliant kids are more likely, but not always, to let adults with bad intentions abuse them, while kids who are defiant, are more likely to say "Stick it!" (although they may get harmed in the process) It's a difficult question and I'd rather just take it a day at a time and try to deal with it in God's way and tackle each problem in an individual way, I suppose.

 

[Neenie1]

Before I had kids I always said I was never going to smack them. Now, nearly 4 years later, yes, I do smack my child, never in anger, and always with an explanation as to why I am doing it. In fact since I have been a little more lax with our discipline, our nearly 4 yo has really gone to town with bad behaviour so have had to get him back on track again.

It is just my personal opinion that children need firm boundaries and if they cross the line there needs to be consequences. Of course the discipline needs to be age apropriate, for example we would never smack him for wetting the bed or spilling a drink, but we do smack for downright disobedience.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Hi,

What do you all think about corporal punishment for children? This has been discussed on another forum, but I'd be interested to know what us Australian Christians generally think to it.

Conservative Christians tend to point at Proverbs 22:15 and Proverbs 23:13-14 as a means of justifying it.
……………..
What do the rest of you think to this?
tgg

I don’t believe that “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child,
but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.” Literally means that we always have to use a rod to discipline kids. Proverbs were intended to be relevant to the people of the day, and use language as such.

However, I do believe that the wisdom of those proverbs is still very much relevant to us today, and thus I agree that being lax in discipline with kids will cause problems. Does that mean you have to use corporal punishment ? – well I think that is up to parents, and often depends on the child. Some children don’t need to be smacked to make them obey their parents.

I also think that the removal of the ability of teachers to use corporal punishment, along with a decline in the power of teachers generally, has led to a decline in discipline in our schools. Kids are definitely less respectful today than say 20 years ago. And ultimately, it's the kids - not the adults - who lose out.

 

[MOTH]

Trogdor? Ya hit the nail on the head!!!

 

[erin74]

We use smacking as one form of our discipline repitoire. Saved for defiant behaviour, and outright disobedience. We intend to phase it out as our kids get older. But when they are quite young it is sometimes necessary as they just don't understand some other forms of discipline. For our 18 month old we use a smack on the hand and say 'no' firmly, if saying 'no' on it's own doesn't work. Also anything that is dangerous we immediately smack with a very very firm "no" - I don't want my kids getting hurt, and if smacking is what it takes for them to learn, then that's what they're getting.

anyway - gotta go do dinner.

erin

 

[Marissa]

Personally I think it is a matter of balance. I have no problem with people smacking their kids, but there is a limit. Likewise I have no problem with parents who choose not to smack, so long as they do discipline their children effectively.

Should I have children I will most likely smack them, simply because that was the least of the harm I got as a child.

I also think that the removal of the ability of teachers to use corporal punishment, along with a decline in the power of teachers generally, has led to a decline in discipline in our schools. Kids are definitely less respectful today than say 20 years ago. And ultimately, it's the kids - not the adults - who lose out.

Is that removing corporal punishment from schools, or a change in the attitude of the parents? If parents bothered to discipline their children for their misbehaviour at school, would a lot of the problems that we see not exist? Instead, they prefer to blame the school and excuse the kids behaviour.

Perhaps a combination of both.

 

[The Bad Templar]

Conservative Christians tend to point at Proverbs 22:15 and Proverbs 23:13-14 as a means of justifying it.

Really? Where's your proof? How many 'conservative Christians' are we talking about?

OTOH, many Christians believe that because the Bible is the inerrant word of God, King Solomons parenting techniques were reflective of God's expectations.

Really? Got any proof? I haven't met a single one.

A recent study has shown that one out of three boys develops a genetic problem that will cause him to indulge in criminal and anti-social behaviour later in life.

Maybe we should breed them out of existence.



I think there are a lot of naive assumptions about the appropriate use of corporal punishment these days....ie children suffering under a regime of repeated violence.

I've found with my kids, that with a a couple of smacks at pivotal times early on, means that I've never had to do it again.

On the other hand... I've worked in school and have seen the trend of medicating children out of their brains in an attempt to make them behave...where proper discipline would have solved the problem. It's very convenient for some parents to deflect the blame for their children's poor behavior on.

It's a pretty pathetic sight to go into the kitchette of the office in a small school and see two-dozen cups with student's names on for their daily behaviour medication.

 

[Bevlina]

Odd this should come up. Recently I was in town and a Mum was trying to hold the hand of a screaming child who didn't get what she wanted in the shop.
No matter how hard the Mum perservered, the child screamed " I WANT IT!!!" I watched the child throw herself onto the ground, the Mum trying to tell her she couldn't afford it, and saw the embarrassment of the Mum's face. It was sad to see.
Finally, the child screaming threw a fit of rage and the Mother tried to console her.
Now the Mum was laden down with bags of this & that, so she was in quite a state.
It took about 5 minutes for her to haul this screaming child up the street - still screaming at the top of her lungs.
My thought? " Someone needs a smacked bottom."

 

[MOTH]

yeah, Bev. Sometimes that is exactly what it takes to turn an uncontrollable rage into more reasonable crying spell (much easier to take, IMO) Good, old fashioned shock treatment. It should only take one or two occasions, then the child understands that no means no. An invaluable lesson to equip one for life. Continual reasoning just doesn't work and only prolongs the agony, and makes for a very insecure child, with tantrums continuing in one form or another throughout their lives.

 

[Neenie1]

Odd this should come up. Recently I was in town and a Mum was trying to hold the hand of a screaming child who didn't get what she wanted in the shop.
No matter how hard the Mum perservered, the child screamed " I WANT IT!!!" I watched the child throw herself onto the ground, the Mum trying to tell her she couldn't afford it, and saw the embarrassment of the Mum's face. It was sad to see.
Finally, the child screaming threw a fit of rage and the Mother tried to console her.
Now the Mum was laden down with bags of this & that, so she was in quite a state.
It took about 5 minutes for her to haul this screaming child up the street - still screaming at the top of her lungs.
My thought? " Someone needs a smacked bottom."

Oh boy, I had that happen to me yesterday (looks like Grandma has a lot to answer to, she spoiled my son rotten while I was recovering from my caesarean and now I am paying for it )

Only problem is if you smack kids in public these days you are likely to end up in court.

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

Yeah, the in-public thing is a worry. I think if you're in the situation of that mum with the tantrum throwing kid, you just have to be determined that you are not gonna lose this confrontation.

Our kids are 20 and 16 now, and we smacked 'em, never in anger, never as first resort, only for direct, knowing defiance and disobedience . Never had to happen often, you could usually get away with a variation on the theme of "If you don't ...right now, Mr Spoon will have to come out of his house..."

I don't think we would have given smacks numbering in double figures for the both of them put together. It worked for us, anyway, but it always has to come in the context of firm, self-confident discipline where people know where they stand, and that you love 'em...and leave the anger out of it. And consistent, as a parent and as a primary teacher for 20 years, I know that consistent is the hard part. But you try, you do your best...
And corporal doesn't have to be the only punishement, either, and that's enough out of me.

But I don't think anything I've advocated here constitutes violence.

 

[thejesusfish90]

During my childhood, my mother would take the wooden spoon to me when I was misbehaving exceptionally... and I thank her for it, I never came to the conclusion that violence allowed me to exert authority over others, and I dont believe that I was a troublesome or violent child, probably because I knew with certainty the boundaries of what was acceptable behaviour... But I think its important to use other means of discipline such as when I would swear or blaspheme as a consequence of the influence of other chidlren, mum would wash my mouth out with soap, I would sometimes be grounded if I did something that was especially wrong, or be sent to my room, or simply told off... I have to agree with what rufus said, Corporeal punishment is not violence, when it is done with no anger or rage, rather in the interests of the childs discipline... I think that corporeal punishment becomes a problem when it is motivated by rage and frustration, which indeed instills poor attitudes upon the child...

YBIC

Chris

 

[JFreak89]

I used to go to the last school in australia that practised corporal punishment, of course there were detentions etc first, but i reckon that it was pretty effective, the ol belt called "milo" lol,

But Seriously, it doesnt really teach kids violence, unless they turn on their parents etc and use the same weapon against them, very effective if they are taken by suprise i must add, but it doesnt really create violence, i would have to agree with the others ^^ ^

 

[tgg]

I think it's quite an educational experience seeing parents with squalling kids in a supermarket. Even though I have taken young children to supermarkets with me before, I have never had them behave in an obnoxious manner.

I would say to them before going "Today, I'm not buying you a chocolate. You can kick and scream and punch the wall right here if you want - but you won't get a chocolate." The kids behaved themselves.

I heard one way of curing kids supermarket rage. A father was in a supermarket when his kid fell to the floor kicking and screaming because he couldn't get a chocolate. In one moment of brilliant lunacy, the father got down on the ground and started kicking and screaming in front of his kid and the customers. The kid calmed down and ran off as fast as his legs could carry him. I think from that time on he never dared to embarrass his father again!


tgg

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

Imagine having the cojones to do that, that's brilliant.

 

[erin74]

I've heard of that kind of thing before. My friend does it at home when her kids chuck a wobbly, but I can't see her doing it at the shops.

I've always wanted to try the one where you do something your kids know they aren't allowed to do and then send yourself to your room! One day, one day!

 

[Talie]

concequences & respect are two words our society is trying to breed out of our children

 

[JacqS]

Odd this should come up. Recently I was in town and a Mum was trying to hold the hand of a screaming child who didn't get what she wanted in the shop.
No matter how hard the Mum perservered, the child screamed " I WANT IT!!!" I watched the child throw herself onto the ground, the Mum trying to tell her she couldn't afford it, and saw the embarrassment of the Mum's face. It was sad to see.
Finally, the child screaming threw a fit of rage and the Mother tried to console her.
Now the Mum was laden down with bags of this & that, so she was in quite a state.
It took about 5 minutes for her to haul this screaming child up the street - still screaming at the top of her lungs.
My thought? " Someone needs a smacked bottom."

OH, HAVE I EVER BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!!
Although, I must admit I have seen kids throwing tantrums HEAPS worse than my two ever have, our ministers wife once asked me at a church picnic how two 'mild mannered' people like myself & my husband (she has obviously never seen my hubby when the PC's throwing a fit ) managed to end up with two such strong willed children!! However, I tend to speak to them, tell them if they dont stop their carrying on, we will leave the shopping and go to the bathroom (which I have done, no good just threatening it!). I was shopping one day, and my little Mr wouldnt do as he was told, this elderly lady stopped and very gruffly said to him "you be a good boy and listen to your mummy"...that was the last problem I had with him ..that day!! I have also been out shopping and had someone come up offering a balloon or a chocolate or something, saying 'oh, come on, you stop that and be a good boy for your mummy'...well, I'm sorry, but I really don't appreciate strangers rewarding my children for throwing tantrums, and I let em know it!

Usually, when my kids have done something REALLY bad that makes me downright cross, I dont smack - they KNOW that the finger pointing down the hallway with a 'go to your room NOW' means they have gone way worse than a smack!!

'Corporal Punishment', well, I guess its like all these other 'contraversial issues', there must be a balance somewhere, and, problem is, we humans aren't very good at 'balance' are we!! It's way too easy to lash out in anger than to remember what we have been given through Christ - no matter how bad we were/are!!

Oh, and, having had an abusive parent....a smack on the fingers/bottom is NOT abuse!!

 

[MOTH]

OH, HAVE I EVER BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!!
Although, I must admit I have seen kids throwing tantrums HEAPS worse than my two ever have, our ministers wife once asked me at a church picnic how two 'mild mannered' people like myself & my husband (she has obviously never seen my hubby when the PC's throwing a fit ) managed to end up with two such strong willed children!! However, I tend to speak to them, tell them if they dont stop their carrying on, we will leave the shopping and go to the bathroom (which I have done, no good just threatening it!). I was shopping one day, and my little Mr wouldnt do as he was told, this elderly lady stopped and very gruffly said to him "you be a good boy and listen to your mummy"...that was the last problem I had with him ..that day!! I have also been out shopping and had someone come up offering a balloon or a chocolate or something, saying 'oh, come on, you stop that and be a good boy for your mummy'...well, I'm sorry, but I really don't appreciate strangers rewarding my children for throwing tantrums, and I let em know it!

Usually, when my kids have done something REALLY bad that makes me downright cross, I dont smack - they KNOW that the finger pointing down the hallway with a 'go to your room NOW' means they have gone way worse than a smack!!

'Corporal Punishment', well, I guess its like all these other 'contraversial issues', there must be a balance somewhere, and, problem is, we humans aren't very good at 'balance' are we!! It's way too easy to lash out in anger than to remember what we have been given through Christ - no matter how bad we were/are!!

Oh, and, having had an abusive parent....a smack on the fingers/bottom is NOT abuse!!

Hey, well said, Jacqs!........and how appropriate!