Conversion to Orthodoxy from RC

[RileyG]

No! I am not considering that HOWEVER, I feel so drawn to it. The liturgy for example,the icons, the Jesus prayer, their music, the byzantine chant, the way they celebrate the sacraments, etc. Everything is so gorgeous!

I'm so ignorant of Orthodoxy, other than it also is apostolic and has retained what Christ taught. That being said, I do have some serious theological concerns as well. (Simply, I don't understand them.)

Also, I have no problems with the ordinary Mass in RC, but the moment the Protestant hymns come out, with guitars, drums- whatever I find no reverence. (Doesn't happen at my parish, or most parishes that I have experienced. They either have regular guitar with Catholic contemporary hymns..there's a difference, but that's irrelevant).

That being said, I STILL love the Catholic Church, the spirituality it has to offer me, (IE Holy Rosary, Divine Mercy Chaplet, St. Therese, I can't EVER imagine giving those up).

Sigh. I'm a complete mess.
Any advice? Everyone I came to contact here is extremely friendly and its so awesome.

 

[RileyG]

Literally, the closest Orthodox Church is 45 miles from me. I also know there is one in Omaha (2 hour drive).

I just feel confused. :/ I feel a tug on my heart for Orthodoxy but at the same time...confusion :/ Lord, have mercy +
I will move in a few months, and there is only Catholic Churhces, an Episcopal Church, Lutheran Churches, Baptists Churches, other mainline Protestants, but no Orthodox. *sigh*

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I've lived in both worlds, Riles, so TRUST ME, I know how you feel! I was Catholic over 30 years of my life, brother! I was a rosary, stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy, Eucharistic Adoration, Hail Mary man like you cannot believe!

Walking away from the Catholic Church was HHHHHAAARD! I was torn like you can't fathom. Another poster on here, Joseph Hazen, will share with you that he, as a Catholic who knew he had to convert to Orthodoxy, sat out in a parking lot thinking about leaving Catholicism AND CRIED.

Then one thing we realized after we left----ORTHODOXY IS SOOOOO MUCH BETTER! It's like loving your Mustang GT with 300 horsepower and being afraid to sell it and buy the Dodge Challenger STR8, but then you get up the guts, buy the Challenger, and it has 500 horses, turns on a dime, is way more comfortable, tougher-looking, more aggressive, and drives like heaven itself. That's Orthodoxy!

Ok, so you like Ash Wednesday, well, we have Forgiveness Sunday! Ok, you liked the Stations of the Cross, well we have Royal Hours and Lenten Vespers and Bridegroom Matins during Lent! Ok, you liked the Rosary, well, read the Orthodox daily prayers and they're infinitely better and more penetrating! Ok, you like Catholic confession. Well, try Orthodox confession where your Spiritual Father is also a counselor and it is more intimate and powerful and where he lays his epitrakelion on your head and touches your head with Cross declaring God's forgiveness for his "spiritual child," you! You like Catholic communion? Try going up to your priest who WILL say your name every time and issues you the golden spoon full of a leavened bread Eucharist that touches your soul, and you get antidiron bread as you walk back to from communion! You like holy water? Try our Theophany! You like statues, we have ICONS! Miss having incense? We always have it! Wish you had the ancient wording and more beautiful verbiage at liturgy? We have it! You miss the "let us go in peace to love and serve the Lord?" Well, we walk up to the icon, venerate it, then kiss/venerate the Cross and kiss our priest's hand and get blessings! Like the supernatural emphasis? We have it in spades!

Like the saints of Catholicism? Miss Padre Pio? WE HAVE ST. GREGORY PALAMAS and St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sava of Serbia, St. Herman of Alaska, St. John of San Francisco/Shanghai, wonder-workers all!

You like Easter morning liturgy? Try ours! We worship from 11pm into the late hours of Sunday in the dark with candles and passion!

You like the Catholic Bible? Try the Orthodox Study Bible that has footnotes from the Fathers and Greek references at the bottom to show you what REALLY is present in the power of Scripture!

Like piety? We stand the whole time through worship, many of our women wear veils, and we bow and cross ourselves enough to make your head spin!

Like unchanging morals and timeless theology? We got it.



As someone who has lived in both worlds, dude, trust Gurney when he tells you, where you are now is LIGHT YEARS less than where I stand. Orthodoxy is the ancient Faith alive and well in 2014.

If you ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and read the faith of Orthodoxy, get chrismated into our world of spiritual depth, you'll look back and think, goodness, why didn't I sign up sooner!!!?

 

[RileyG]

THANK YOU SO MUCH for taking the time to answer it. I GREATLY appreciate it. Yes, I do love St. Therese, St. Francis, etc, and other Catholic saints. However my main issues are uniquely Catholic: purgatory, indulgences, and original sin. No debates, I just need understanding why you reject purgatory and original sin, as well as the filiqoue.

Also, regular confession (ie. IN RC every 8 days) before I receive the Eucharist is so important to me. I'm rather scrupulous (due to my anxiety/OCD issues....) and I would hate to "eat and drink myself upon judgment".

I'm only 18, and will be living in a Catholic community soon, so I hope I still have time.

My confessor always says my name when I receive communion. To those he knows anyway...other priests don't *shrug*

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Riley,

I'm not trying to debate you, brother, but merely point out a series of issues that I thought "Oh no! There's no way the Orthodox Church could be as good as the Catholic Church" on this or that issue...and in each one, it was soooo much the opposite! Orthodoxy is superior in topic after topic. That was what I said. I'm not debating you, especially since you are an inquirer!

So, let me address what you ask here:

Purgatory. Yes, we reject it. We reject it because the Ancient Church never had any such animal. If you read into the Fathers, you'll see that the Church DID indeed pray for the dead, and the Orthodox believe in the Aerial Toll Houses, which I suggest you Google, ok? Father Seraphim Rose did a wonderful job describing them in depth in his book entitled The Soul After Death. The Toll House vision of transition from life to death is where we ascend into the aerial realm and are tempted by demons on our way to the light. Much like St. John Climacus describes allegorically, we ascend a spiritual ladder trying to reach the Lord of Hosts, but on our ascent, we are tempted. The life we have carefully crafted for ourselves in this life prepares us for the climb to God. Our selfishness, addictions, inwardness, ego-centrism, lusts, obsessions, racism, anger, OR our purity, love, forgiveness, patience, prudence, piety, humility, kindness, faith will be at hand and will be either our strength or our fall. The demons have observed us, and they want our failure. Christ sends angels to comfort and defend, but it is in our hands if we cave in or stay strong. Through the fire, steel is forged.

So purgatory is incongruous with this vision. Purgatory is a waiting room of purgation, fire, burning away our "temporal" sin ramifications. This is utterly alien to the ancient faith, and a poor vision of the transition from this world to the next.

We don't reject Original Sin, we reject Original GUILT. The Orthodox Church has always maintained that we fell! Of course Adam and Eve sinned! And of course they initiated the Fall! The Fall damaged us all! It impaired our spiritual vision, not entirely, but profoundly. The East DOES reject the Augustinian idea that the Fall was so profound that our free will was impacted with such severity that we scarcely have any. The Orthodox Church also rejects the notion that WE INHERIT THE GUILT for Adam and Eve's act. It is absurd and un-Biblical, too. Would you and I declare a drug baby guilty for the drug use of his parents? That would be utterly insane, right? Why would the baby be guilty? He wouldn't, BUT he would bear the defects! He would carry the sad damage done by their abuse while he was in the womb. He would possibly have ADHD or learning disabilities, right? But he's not GUILTY for their sins! That is how we view the First Parents. They sinned, and we bear the damage, but not the guilt! It is 100% rational, Biblical, and common-sense!

The filioque is bad doctrine pure and simple. The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. End of story. The Eastern Fathers railed at this crazy innovation. The Great Council decided (Pope included!) that the Creed says "The Holy Spirit...who proceeds from the Father." Period. The Western notion takes away the monarchical state of the Father, who shares divinity with Son and Holy Spirit, but who has the origin of the latter.

Orthodox believe in Confession, Brother! We love it! It's a great gift from above! I go around once per month or sometimes every few weeks. Confession in the Russian Orthodox parishes takes place EVERY Saturday or else you may not Commune. In most other Orthodox parishes, you confess as you feel it's needed. My church has confessions every Saturday after Vespers. You are encouraged, if you're Orthodox, to confess often as your conscience tells you and whenever you are at all aware of a sin that impedes your walk as well as your holiness to commune. Confession is much different in Orthodoxy, face-to-face only.

Scrupulosity is something you need to ditch. It's SUCH an impediment in the walk with Christ! I'd encourage you to prayerfully watch out! Often times Satan uses scruples to his advantage to turn you into a Pharisee and a paranoid mess rather than someone whose eyes and ears and spirit are open to the medicine of the Sacraments.

Hope this helps?

THANK YOU SO MUCH for taking the time to answer it. I GREATLY appreciate it. Yes, I do love St. Therese, St. Francis, etc, and other Catholic saints. However my main issues are uniquely Catholic: purgatory, indulgences, and original sin. No debates, I just need understanding why you reject purgatory and original sin, as well as the filiqoue.

Also, regular confession (ie. IN RC every 8 days) before I receive the Eucharist is so important to me. I'm rather scrupulous (due to my anxiety/OCD issues....) and I would hate to "eat and drink myself upon judgment".

I'm only 18, and will be living in a Catholic community soon, so I hope I still have time.

My confessor always says my name when I receive communion. To those he knows anyway...other priests don't *shrug*

 

[RileyG]

Thanks so much. Although I'm familiar with the toll houses, they, to be honest terrify me. I had another Orthodox friend say its just Russian tradition, not doctrine?

Scrupulosity is awful,yes. However, It probably is because of my own OCD/Anxiety which I have (diagnosed). It definitely is something I would love to ditch- and I try my best to remain prayerful as I can. Obviously due to some areas in my life caused me to have a low-self esteem, and am dry which also contributes to it.

Keep in mind, I'm 18.
Again. I appreciate it, and thank you so much.
God Bless you always...

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My last post here tonight.

Well, toll houses don't sound pretty, but neither does the burning, slow, lonely, painful experience of purgatory. Our sins haunt us. That is why we reach out to Christ NOW to help us cleanse ourselves of ego. I need it more than anyone!

Best of luck

QUOTE=RileyG;65651960]Thanks so much. Although I'm familiar with the toll houses, they, to be honest terrify me. I had another Orthodox friend say its just Russian tradition, not doctrine?

Scrupulosity is awful,yes. However, It probably is because of my own OCD/Anxiety which I have (diagnosed). It definitely is something I would love to ditch- and I try my best to remain prayerful as I can. Obviously due to some areas in my life caused me to have a low-self esteem, and am dry which also contributes to it.

Keep in mind, I'm 18.
Again. I appreciate it, and thank you so much.
God Bless you always...[/QUOTE]

 

[RileyG]

Thank you so much! And goodnight!!!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My last post here tonight.

Well, toll houses don't sound pretty, but neither does the burning, slow, lonely, painful experience of purgatory. Our sins haunt us. That is why we reach out to Christ NOW to help us cleanse ourselves of ego. I need it more than anyone!

Best of luck

QUOTE=RileyG;65651960]Thanks so much. Although I'm familiar with the toll houses, they, to be honest terrify me. I had another Orthodox friend say its just Russian tradition, not doctrine?

Scrupulosity is awful,yes. However, It probably is because of my own OCD/Anxiety which I have (diagnosed). It definitely is something I would love to ditch- and I try my best to remain prayerful as I can. Obviously due to some areas in my life caused me to have a low-self esteem, and am dry which also contributes to it.

Keep in mind, I'm 18.
Again. I appreciate it, and thank you so much.
God Bless you always...[/QUOTE]

 

[Nik0s]

Gurney did an awesome job, so I'm just going to add this. Pray, pray, and t when you're done, pray some more! Visit an Orthodox Church and speak with the priest if you're serious
edit
Here's a good site for finding a church.
http://orthodoxyinamerica.org

 

[InnerPhyre]

Riley, if you can't find an Orthodox church near you, you might check out www.ancientfaithradio.com It's internet radio for Orthodox and has lots of good programs as well as Orthodox music you can listen to.

The best advice I can give is don't stress and don't freak out. Wherever this journey takes you, it will bring you closer to Christ, right? Ultimately, it is a deeper union with Christ that you are seeking. Trust Him and keep praying.

 

[MilesVitae]

Hey Riley,
I'm also Catholic and looking into Eastern Orthodoxy. My reasons are slightly different from yours (I don't feel quite the same kind of attraction that you do, but I have my doubts about Catholicism so here I am), but I just wanted to let you know I'm in a similar boat and I'll pray for you!

 

[ArmyMatt]

just as something a little more specific than what Inner posted, but on AFR (and they have a lot of good stuff), there is a podcast called Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, where the podcaster looks at the differences between Orthodoxy and other faith traditions. Roman Catholicism is on there (keep in mind that these talks are very basic, as there were a lot that had to be done).

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy

 

[Evangelos]

Be careful about your approach to Orthodoxy and consider God's timing on the move if you ever do. The 'Karios' is God's appointed time. Time is certainly not your enemy and if it takes you a couple of years to move to an area where Orthodoxy is strong and will help you grow up in the Lord, do it then.

Don't go diving into the first parish you find, look around. Consider that conversion is a process that will take your entire life. Don't convert for the sake of fellowship because you may find yourself quickly isolated and suffering.

Moment by moment, rely on the Father for your direction and He will manifest His glory in your life.

 

[RileyG]

Be careful about your approach to Orthodoxy and consider God's timing on the move if you ever do. The 'Karios' is God's appointed time. Time is certainly not your enemy and if it takes you a couple of years to move to an area where Orthodoxy is strong and will help you grow up in the Lord, do it then.

Don't go diving into the first parish you find, look around. Consider that conversion is a process that will take your entire life. Don't convert for the sake of fellowship because you may find yourself quickly isolated and suffering.

Moment by moment, rely on the Father for your direction and He will manifest His glory in your life.

Thanks! Also, thanks to everyone else! I don't doubt my faith as a Catholic- but at the same time I feel drawn to Orthodoxy for the reasons stated in my original post. I also agree about time, and conversion is a day-by-day process. I also must rely on God for answers- not my own self.

 

[Evangelos]

Thanks! Also, thanks to everyone else! I don't doubt my faith as a Catholic- but at the same time I feel drawn to Orthodoxy for the reasons stated in my original post. I also agree about time, and conversion is a day-by-day process. I also must rely on God for answers- not my own self.

Yes, do not rely on your own understanding and remember that you are young and you will say, "I will try this", "I will try that", but remember that Christ is the center of who you are. Orthodox, Protestant or Catholic, dwell in the realities of HIS sovereignty over your life.

Serve God the Spirit by courting HIS presence in your heart. Empty yourself of yourself. If you desire Orthodoxy, delight in the desires God gives to you. If not, God with the grace of God where you attain peace.

Submit to the Father in all things and Glorify HIM.

Remember to have 'inner stillness' are you will not make bad decisions. Stay still and know that HE is GOD. He will open the eyes of your heart and prevent you from being deceived by spiritual mirages in the 'desert'.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

I've lived in both worlds, Riles, so TRUST ME, I know how you feel! I was Catholic over 30 years of my life, brother! I was a rosary, stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy, Eucharistic Adoration, Hail Mary man like you cannot believe!

Walking away from the Catholic Church was HHHHHAAARD! I was torn like you can't fathom. Another poster on here, Joseph Hazen, will share with you that he, as a Catholic who knew he had to convert to Orthodoxy, sat out in a parking lot thinking about leaving Catholicism AND CRIED.

Then one thing we realized after we left----ORTHODOXY IS SOOOOO MUCH BETTER! It's like loving your Mustang GT with 300 horsepower and being afraid to sell it and buy the Dodge Challenger STR8, but then you get up the guts, buy the Challenger, and it has 500 horses, turns on a dime, is way more comfortable, tougher-looking, more aggressive, and drives like heaven itself. That's Orthodoxy!

Ok, so you like Ash Wednesday, well, we have Forgiveness Sunday! Ok, you liked the Stations of the Cross, well we have Royal Hours and Lenten Vespers and Bridegroom Matins during Lent! Ok, you liked the Rosary, well, read the Orthodox daily prayers and they're infinitely better and more penetrating! Ok, you like Catholic confession. Well, try Orthodox confession where your Spiritual Father is also a counselor and it is more intimate and powerful and where he lays his epitrakelion on your head and touches your head with Cross declaring God's forgiveness for his "spiritual child," you! You like Catholic communion? Try going up to your priest who WILL say your name every time and issues you the golden spoon full of a leavened bread Eucharist that touches your soul, and you get antidiron bread as you walk back to from communion! You like holy water? Try our Theophany! You like statues, we have ICONS! Miss having incense? We always have it! Wish you had the ancient wording and more beautiful verbiage at liturgy? We have it! You miss the "let us go in peace to love and serve the Lord?" Well, we walk up to the icon, venerate it, then kiss/venerate the Cross and kiss our priest's hand and get blessings! Like the supernatural emphasis? We have it in spades!

Like the saints of Catholicism? Miss Padre Pio? WE HAVE ST. GREGORY PALAMAS and St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sava of Serbia, St. Herman of Alaska, St. John of San Francisco/Shanghai, wonder-workers all!

You like Easter morning liturgy? Try ours! We worship from 11pm into the late hours of Sunday in the dark with candles and passion!

You like the Catholic Bible? Try the Orthodox Study Bible that has footnotes from the Fathers and Greek references at the bottom to show you what REALLY is present in the power of Scripture!

Like piety? We stand the whole time through worship, many of our women wear veils, and we bow and cross ourselves enough to make your head spin!

Like unchanging morals and timeless theology? We got it.



As someone who has lived in both worlds, dude, trust Gurney when he tells you, where you are now is LIGHT YEARS less than where I stand. Orthodoxy is the ancient Faith alive and well in 2014.

If you ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and read the faith of Orthodoxy, get chrismated into our world of spiritual depth, you'll look back and think, goodness, why didn't I sign up sooner!!!?

Gurney,

These are great reflections. Kudos.

J4M

 

[Organist]

Ummmm.... hopefully not starting an argument... but no, Orthodox do not accept "aerial toll houses" as a doctrine. It is a belief in some places, as I understand, but it has never been accepted as an official doctrine of the Orthodox Church.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ummmm.... hopefully not starting an argument... but no, Orthodox do not accept "aerial toll houses" as a doctrine. It is a belief in some places, as I understand, but it has never been accepted as an official doctrine of the Orthodox Church.

The priest at the church I have been going to made sure we knew what the teaching was about - he said they were controversial and not accepted by all, and not really pushed as a teaching - and that it might be better to consider that it was possible the soul encountered a type of testing after death. From what I have gathered (which really is not much) it seems to me that toll houses sound like a way to make an explanation/analogy for a possibility of what might happen?

But I was actually wanting to chime in on some things you and others mentioned earlier. I was thinking of you saying you had scrupulosity. I am not coming from a Catholic background, but it seems to me (from what I understand) that, along with several particular Protestant churches, the particular teaching might cause some people trouble with that kind of problem. And thinking of Ancient Faith Radio, Fr. M. suggested specifically that I listen to Orthodoxy Live, which is a call-in question program so covers a wide range of topics. It's hosted by Fr. Evan Armatas (and I would recommend his programs, not ones with a stand-in) - I just love his manner and way of explaining things. He has done quite a bit to help me see the Orthodox way of looking at things, most particularly the nature of God and forgiveness, and so on. There may be other wonderful programs for this in particular, but I believe it could help someone with scrupulosity.

Just wanted to offer that in case it can help.