Conversation with all members of OBOB Politics area

[Davidnic]

I would like to have a conversation with you all and see if we can agree to this. First this is a no report thread. Staff can still report but please do not report each other. And please do not make it so a report is needed.

I think we all see the violence and hate in the world today. And we all want it to be different. Our faith, guiding us and expressed through our politics is a big part of how we do that. And it can get emotional.

We all come from different places, different pains and joys and we all want a better world focused on Christ. This forum should reflect that more. So I am asking all of you...can we discuss this and agree to something like this

Listen to understand not just respond. Realize that we can not demonize large numbers of a group...stereotype their intentions and place that on people who post here. No one here is the representative for what is wrong with the liberal view or the conservative view or any view. Can we set aside snark, scoring points and passive aggressive comments in favor of dialog? This agreement is not mod enforceable. It is an agreement between brothers and sisters to treat each other better even when the discussions are serious. No one is asking for PC discussions without edge or passion. But passion does not mean disrespect.

Blessed Mother Teresa said: “If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.”

Lets face it, with the election season about to go into overdrive we need to commit to seeing each other as people and not as representatives of an ideology. It happens too often in political discussion and it takes a commitment from those participating to raise the bar of conversation.

Like I said, this agreement is not something the mods will be enforcing (except where things violate the rules as normal). It is an agreement between Christians to act honestly with each other without rancor and malice in word.

Can we agree to try this? It does not mean you do not forcefully defend your points. But it means you do not get personal and you do not shove people into an ideology and attribute horrible things to their intentions. And before you report someone you try to work it out in thread as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Can you try to make this subforum a standard for the civil discussion of where political issues and faith meet?

With all the darkness in the world today can we attempt to have a common goal...to get the world closer to the heart of Christ, even if we strongly disagree on how?

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Davy, look, I'm sorry

But

There are at least two people on this board who post regularity (read: a lot) who take a completely antagonistic view of everything everyone they don't like or agree with will say on any subject. And who will not listen and seem incapable of being persuaded by facts or reason.

They have a world view. They ruthlessly defend that world view by insult, innuendo and guilt by supposition.

To ignore these kinds of things is very hard since there comments and ideas then just sit there in the thread undisputed.

To engage with them creates the situation you would like to correct. This is paradox.

I'm a reasonable man Davy, you know this, and a well educated one with a lot of experience dealing with all kind of people but I don't know how to deal with this kind of crazy.

I'm open to ideas.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Davy, look, I'm sorry

But

There are at least two people on this board who post regularity (read: a lot) who take a completely antagonistic view of everything everyone they don't like or agree with will say on any subject. And who will not listen and seem incapable of being persuaded by facts or reason.

They have a world view. They ruthlessly defend that world view by insult, innuendo and guilt by supposition.

To ignore these kinds of things is very hard since there comments and ideas then just sit there in the thread undisputed.

To engage with them creates the situation you would like to correct. This is paradox.

I'm a reasonable man Davy, you know this, and a well educated one with a lot of experience dealing with all kind of people but I don't know how to deal with this kind of crazy.

I'm open to ideas.

This isn't intended to be a liberals only sub-forum. You want us to accept the Democratic party's liberal agenda and talking points. Because there are some here who don't see it your way, you get angry and frustrated with us and accuse us of not being persuaded by "facts" and "reason". There are other sub-forums where liberals will find an echo chamber of liberal agreement.

 

[s_gunter]

This isn't intended to be a liberals only sub-forum.

*snicker. Don't worry. It's not. Just look at the tread titles. It's not a conservatives only sub-forum, but it sure is dominated by conservatives.

 

[Davidnic]

I'm open to ideas too Charlie. The political discussion lately has become very much all or nothing. It persuades no one and is just entrenched sides grouping anyone with different ideas into the big group of "Other" or even, "evil"

The only way I know how to deal with it is to get the community to voluntary step back from that kind of all or nothing view. That does not mean people have to believe that the other side is right. Or that some issues have serious moral weight. But it does mean that people need to listen to do more than just respond.

The only thing I can think of is that people have this discussion about seeing each other as fellow humans and not cardboard stand ins for the thing they disagree with, or even...in many cases hate.

Discussions don't happen here....debate does not even really happen. What happens is a kind of vilification.

That can only be stopped by a choice to stop. So my effort is essentially that people agree to try. To try to change the discourse and if needed, not engage those who will not do that.

 

[Davidnic]

I would say if an idea is put forth and you do not want it to sit in a thread undisputed...dispute the idea. Not the person. If a person is intransigent on an idea then refute the idea. You would be surprised how often those reading but not participating are swayed by the argument that is not working on the person in the thread who will not budge. Bob (Newman99) taught me that and he was better at presenting the concept than I am. But you would all be surprised how many read here and they are persuaded by a kind but strong argument and turned off by bickering that demonizes opponents and generalizes them into evil.

 

[s_gunter]

I would say if an idea is put forth and you do not want it to sit in a thread undisputed...dispute the idea. Not the person. If a person is intransigent on an idea then refute the idea. You would be surprised how often those reading but not participating are swayed by the argument that is not working on the person in the thread who will not budge. Bob (Newman99) taught me that and he was better at presenting the concept than I am. But you would all be surprised how many read here and they are persuaded by a kind but strong argument and turned off by bickering that demonizes opponents and generalizes them into evil.

Emphasis mine.

I try to be optimistic in everything, but I'm also a realist. That said, good luck with what I emphasized. "Good night, and good luck."

 

[Davidnic]

No doubt it will not be perfect. What I am asking for is an effort. I know that the topics here are intense, personal and important. But I also know that there are other people on the back end of the screens.

So what I am asking for in this thread is...are people willing to try. To really give this a try.

The current level of discourse convinces no one it just reinforces walls and pride on all sides.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

*snicker. Don't worry. It's not. Just look at the tread titles. It's not a conservatives only sub-forum, but it sure is dominated by conservatives.

OBOB GPF is for political discussion through the lens of orthodox Catholicism which means that it is generally going to be closer to the conservative point of view if this sub-forum is what it is intended to be.

 

[Davidnic]

Its not about conservative or liberal it is about edifying discussion with a Christian attitude...even a forceful Christian attitude..but not one where we are enemies.

"Is an orthodox Catholic view more liberal or conservative politically" would be a good discussion thread. Far better than the current: "X is this or Y is that" attacking people. That would be a topic with an interesting set of views on both sides and in between.

 

[LoAmmi]

I wish you luck in your crucade, David. I really do. But you're dealing with the Internet here. People can hide behind their keyboards and be condescending, egotistical jerks without much consequence. Get a temporary ban or a warning? Sure, but let's be honest with each other. Who really cares? A perm ban, maybe, but I doubt those are handed out much.

There are bullies on the playground David and, just like when I was bullied in school, the existing rules cannot stop them.

 

[Davidnic]

It is true that the internet lets people have a shield to act how they want and treat others as if they are just an object. That is the challenge of all this.
And that is why I am asking the membership here to make the effort on their own. I do understand the uphill battle I am asking. I really really do. But I also think the people here are capable of it.

If only half of those who normally post will do it, it could make a difference. If people begin to make a thread uncivil walk away. Without the conflict it will die. If people decided that they will take the personal responsibility for not feeding the behavior (either in themselves or others) it could make a difference.

 

[Davidnic]

Maybe the people could answer: What do you get out of the discussion in this forum the way it is now?

 

[LoAmmi]

There is a great potential for there to be a somewhat addictive quality to this format for people who might not even think they are getting anything good out of it, you know?

Maybe the people could answer: What do you get out of the discussion in this forum the way it is now?

 

[Davidnic]

There is a great potential for there to be a somewhat addictive quality to this format for people who might not even think they are getting anything good out of it, you know?

Indeed that is partly why I ask it. What are people getting from this level of discourse? Because I am really curious. What do people get from it? What do they want to get out of it?

 

[MoonlessNight]

Can we set aside snark, scoring points and passive aggressive comments in favor of dialog?

No. Unfortunately we can't.

Dialogue is impossible when people are willing to meet your requests for dialogue with unrelated rants about how everyone like you is evil. Some people are more explicit about this (responding to almost every post with complaints about how this group or that group does everything wrong, regardless of the actual topic), while others are sneakier (such as praising posts by saying that they are better than the filth that some people post) but it happens too often and from too many people for there to be a calm dialogue.

Incidentally the passive aggressive quality of the insults comes from the flaming rules. Anything which is the least bit direct results in a flame infraction, so instead people make indirect comments with obvious targets (but which are not explicitly stated and so cannot be cited for flames). I don't know how you would ban that sort of post.

All of this is made worse by how long most of the posters have been here. It's hard but possible to try to open up an honest dialogue despite the insults thrown at you the first few times it happens. But when it has happened constantly for a matter of years, continuing to do so is really only deciding to be insulted without responding to the insults.

 

[Davidnic]

So what do you get out of the level of dialog here?

 

[Davidnic]

And I'm not asking anyone to make a promise for anyone else. Can people individually promise for themselves they're going to try do what is being asked?

 

[MoonlessNight]

Maybe the people could answer: What do you get out of the discussion in this forum the way it is now?

A good question. I post here for the following reasons:

• Because there are still a few people that I can have the type of dialogue that you would like to see more of with, even if I disagree with them on many issues.
• Because I have seen in my life that when people lie about an issue or a group constantly and no one says anything the lie stands, no matter how far from the facts it is. To get people to see such lies all that is needed is to have someone stand up for the truth. It doesn't matter whether the people who lie are convinced to change their ways, and indeed they almost never do, but only that people see that the lie isn't a universally accepted position.
• Because in my personal and professional life I have had people bring up many of the same political issues that appear here, often using similar talking points to posters here. Being active on these boards gives me practice dealing with these issues. Usually in those situations I do not try to make the same sorts of arguments, since the people making those talking points usually are not interested in debate, but knowing the talking points in advance and knowing how people making those points respond to various things helps me smooth over those situations (usually by changing to a different topic, which is often not as easy as it may sound).
• Because I have seen many people who claim to be for one position, but do nothing to support it and much to oppose it. These people often can get quite a lot of respect as an "objective" or "dispassionate" expert if they can maintain this facade. However, when they are challenged they usually break down and their true positions become obvious to those who will look. It doesn't change their mind, but it sabotages their influence.
• Because, as you have mentioned, there are many lurking posters who can be swayed one way or another, even if the active posters generally cannot. However, I disagree with you that lurking posters always are swayed to the side that always tries to keep dialogue open, no matter how many times they are met by insults. Some people are like that, many are swayed by different things. I try to be persuasive to as many people as possible while not using any dishonest tactics.

 

[LoAmmi]

A good question. I post here for the following reasons:

• Because there are still a few people that I can have the type of dialogue that you would like to see more of with, even if I disagree with them on many issues.
• Because I have seen in my life that when people lie about an issue or a group constantly and no one says anything the lie stands, no matter how far from the facts it is. To get people to see such lies all that is needed is to have someone stand up for the truth. It doesn't matter whether the people who lie are convinced to change their ways, and indeed they almost never do, but only that people see that the lie isn't a universally accepted position.
• Because in my personal and professional life I have had people bring up many of the same political issues that appear here, often using similar talking points to posters here. Being active on these boards gives me practice dealing with these issues. Usually in those situations I do not try to make the same sorts of arguments, since the people making those talking points usually are not interested in debate, but knowing the talking points in advance and knowing how people making those points respond to various things helps me smooth over those situations (usually by changing to a different topic, which is often not as easy as it may sound).
• Because I have seen many people who claim to be for one position, but do nothing to support it and much to oppose it. These people often can get quite a lot of respect as an "objective" or "dispassionate" expert if they can maintain this facade. However, when they are challenged they usually break down and their true positions become obvious to those who will look. It doesn't change their mind, but it sabotages their influence.
• Because, as you have mentioned, there are many lurking posters who can be swayed one way or another, even if the active posters generally cannot. However, I disagree with you that lurking posters always are swayed to the side that always tries to keep dialogue open, no matter how many times they are met by insults. Some people are like that, many are swayed by different things. I try to be persuasive to as many people as possible while not using any dishonest tactics.

One thing I have noticed is that you are a pretty unique poster. I'll be the first to admit that I don't do this to do a deep dive on a topic. Especially not a political topic. So you'll reply to me and it's a long-ish reply and I just kind of zone out a bit on it and try to summarize it quickly to respond. That definitely hurts any discussion because what we're looking for in a message forum are completely different. If I go over two paragraphs, I start to cut it down. Just the way I am.