Contraception vs. Sexual Innocence

[quatona]

Though every person is created by God--and that abortion even in the case of rape is wrong--I'm not really thinking of rape (which is objectively and profoundly evil and traumatizing) in this thread, but of consensual sex, and especially marital sex. However, as I understand it, it is perfectly acceptable, morally to do anything within reason to prevent conception after a rape (not an abortion but a prevention of conception), since the woman did not will the sex. I don't know much at all about that process, however.

The main point I believe here is that if people freely engage in sex, then they should be open to life. They should not deliberately prevent the purpose of sex, which is procreation. In the case of a couple where one has HIV, I think that they should abstain and rely on the grace of God to bond them more deeply even without sex than they could have bonded through sex.

Fortunately, nobody is keeping you from living up to your religious convictions.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Though every person is created by God--and that abortion even in the case of rape is wrong

So an innocent woman who was the victim of a disgusting attack should be required to carry the results of that rape? Her entire life was changed against her will and you want to force her to endure this change?

I'm not really thinking of rape (which is objectively and profoundly evil and traumatizing) in this thread

I think it's relevant to the topic. You are discussing sex and life. A woman can become pregnant as the result of a rape. You suggested that God creates all life. You acknowledge that rape is evil and traumatizing. So God creates life through means of an evil and traumatizing event? Yikes.

However, as I understand it, it is perfectly acceptable, morally to do anything within reason to prevent conception after a rape (not an abortion but a prevention of conception), since the woman did not will the sex.

Ah, so the woman is on a timer here? If she can get get a plan B pill before the egg fertilizes, then it's okay but if she becomes pregnant, too bad for her, she must accept the result of being raped?

In the case of a couple where one has HIV, I think that they should abstain and rely on the grace of God to bond them more deeply even without sex than they could have bonded through sex.

So a husband and wife should not be able to share the intimacy of having sex? Our human bodies don't work that way. Contraceptives and condoms are there for protection from diseases, not just pregnancy

 

[Ana the Ist]

If latex or a pill won't help or interfere with God's will, then why rely on them at all?.

I think it's rather obvious...most people don't think god has the role in sex that you do.

 

[Cactus Jack]

Is the intent of avoiding conception always wrong? A clear Yes or No will do.

Regards,
Shodan

Dude, you just don't get it. There is no right or wrong. You want black or white. But if anything it's a myriad of shades of grey.

 

[patricius79]

Isn't this god supposed to be omnipotent? Surely, he can see to it that his will is done, no matter what mere mortals may do.

I think that "Omnipotent" does not mean "Tyrannical". God has Free Will and Is Mercy. He gives creatures the ability to choose between different options. And if they choose, they can even abuse their sexual powers by using them contrary to their procreative (life-giving) purpose. Likewise their other powers. For example, one can abuse their ability to eat and enjoy food by eating too much, or not enough, or eating the wrong foods. The Romans would eat and then vomit and then eat some more, which was referenced in one of the Hunger Games movies, where they did that in Panem. There is something like contraception in that. One one has lost their sexual innocence, I think they become blinded to some extent, and then God's Mercy works in Jesus Christ through the Mother of God to bring them back to a state of innocence.

This is not to say that people must try to have as many children as possible. They are free not not use their sexual powers if there is a reason to delay pregnancy. Some couples abstain periodically because they have a serious reason to delay pregnancy, such as needing to focus on other children. This is not abusing their sexual powers, it is respecting them and not using them for a serious reason.

But although periodic abstinence--having sex during the infertile time and avoiding sex during the fertile time--is not wrong in itself, it can be abused if one has a bad intention. But I think contraception is wrong in itself, even if one has a good intention (which of course lessens the guilt, but is still wrong).

 

[Cactus Jack]

I have one "full-blood" son and three step kids from a past marriage. My son is a "condom kid", my step-son is as well, and the oldest daughter of my step kids is a "pill girl". So reflecting on experience, I am inclined to believe that neither Trojan or The Pill is no match for Jesus.

 

[Cearbhall]

Oh, Patricius. I wondered where you had got to.

I look forward to reading another 100 pages of debate about "contracepting."

 

[Locutus]

Why is it that people see contraception as interfering with God but don't feel the same about antibiotics or for that matter childbearing?

Going to the hospital OR having a midwife present at the birth is interfering with God's will!

So is looking both ways before crossing the street!

Or perhaps taking reasonable precautions are not against God at all, just against some who claim to speak for God.

I can explain

God is all about the sexy times. He's not concerned about being usurped in the Intensive Care Unit, because there's nothing fun about watching someone use a bedpan.

 

[Cearbhall]

Here are the last two threads, for those who weren't lucky enough to be a part of the exhausting discussions of "psycho-sexual maturity":

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-is-contraception-considered-morally-acceptable.7891087/

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/sex-ed-ethics-and-effect.7904706/

 

[Locutus]

most people don't think god has the role in sex that you do.

From a clinical perspective, the person who wants to believe that an invisible entity is participating in or present at every act of coitus, is technically a fetishist. And that's me with my impartial clinician's hat on. What I think of someone who wants their invisible friend to join in is entirely another matter

 

[patricius79]

So an innocent woman who was the victim of a disgusting attack should be required to carry the results of that rape? Her entire life was changed against her will and you want to force her to endure this change?



I think it's relevant to the topic. You are discussing sex and life. A woman can become pregnant as the result of a rape. You suggested that God creates all life. You acknowledge that rape is evil and traumatizing. So God creates life through means of an evil and traumatizing event? Yikes.



Ah, so the woman is on a timer here? If she can get get a plan B pill before the egg fertilizes, then it's okay but if she becomes pregnant, too bad for her, she must accept the result of being raped?



So a husband and wife should not be able to share the intimacy of having sex? Our human bodies don't work that way. Contraceptives and condoms are there for protection from diseases, not just pregnancy

I think that God can bring good out of something, while in no way condoning the evil. If someone terrible happens to us, that is no reason to do what is wrong or to kill a human person. If atheism were true, none of this would matter anyway since everything would just be random chemical reactions. The very fact that we can identify moral evils tells us that we are spiritual beings which can subordinate our sense life and sexual desires to our reason. That is what is involved with abstinence when there is a serious reason, such as not being married, or because of poverty, or ill health, or HIV, etc. A person cannot truly be sexually mature if they are incapable of self-control. I think that contraception has led to a culture where inappropriate contentography is pervasive and there is more unhappiness. But I believe that Mary and Jesus can heal anyone. To paraphrase Pius 9th, "with Mary, we need not fear anything, and nothing is hopeless". Some try to equate periodic abstinence with contraception, but this makes no sense, even though anything can be done with a bad intention. Periodic abstinence requires self-discipline. And if they were so similar, periodic abstinence would probably be more popular, as it is free.

 

[Cearbhall]

I think that God can bring good out of something, while in no way condoning the evil.

You're saying that you think he purposely (versus randomly, I suppose) tacks on a pregnancy to some cases of rape...? He gets in on the violation of her body to do something else to her that she didn't want, waltzing through the doors that the rapist threw open, and you call it good?

And now she has to suffer through the pain and cost of pregnancy and childbirth if she doesn't want to deal with the psychological effects of abortion (not to mention that whole Hell thing) on top of recovering from the sexual assault? Wow, what a gift.

 

[quatona]

Oh, Patricius. I wondered where you had got to.

I look forward to reading another 100 pages of debate about "contracepting."

Back then he kept claiming that his arguments were not founded in his religious convictions. Now, he doesn´t seem to have problems admitting that they are. That´s some progress.

 

[Cactus Jack]

Back then he kept claiming that his arguments were not founded in his religious convictions. Now, he doesn´t seem to have problems admitting that they are. That´s some progress.

BACK OFF
Maybe he does have religious convictions and maybe he doesn't. This is a Christian forum, so if he does that is just fine. And if he doesn't that is just fine as well. But attacking anyone for that reason is totally unacceptable.

 

[quatona]

BACK OFF
Maybe he does have religious convictions and maybe he doesn't. This is a Christian forum, so if he does that is just fine. And if he doesn't that is just fine as well. But attacking anyone for that reason is totally unacceptable.

Good thing I didn´t attack him for having religious convictions. Au contraire, I commended him for finally realizing that all his arguments are founded in them.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

But I do accept the authority of the Catholic Church

That right there is your problem. The only authority is God and His Word. That aside a condom can't stop God from making sure the woman gets pregnant. Also you are listed as christian but you really should change your label to Catholic. Just so people know which denomination you are.

 

[Cearbhall]

Maybe he does have religious convictions and maybe he doesn't. This is a Christian forum, so if he does that is just fine. And if he doesn't that is just fine as well. But attacking anyone for that reason is totally unacceptable.

Er, that's not what he said. The issue was Patricius being dishonest about it. Quatona couldn't possibly have been clearer. Chill with the huge font armchair moderating.

 

[KCfromNC]

I think that God can bring good out of something

Including contraceptives, I'd guess.

 

[patricius79]

I have one "full-blood" son and three step kids from a past marriage. My son is a "condom kid", my step-son is as well, and the oldest daughter of my step kids is a "pill girl". So reflecting on experience, I am inclined to believe that neither Trojan or The Pill is no match for Jesus.

I agree that contraception can fail to work. I'm glad that your son and step-children were born. I agree that contraceptives are no match for Jesus. I think that because humans have free will, however, we can oppose the will of Christ, which is what what God the Son, on the Cross. So while I believe that God is All-Powerful and All-Merciful, I think that we need to, for that very reason, seek to do His will, especially in light of His Incarnation and what he suffered for our salvation.

As far as shades of gray, I agree that most things are a matter of different colors rather than black and whites. Some sexual things, however, are matters of objective evil, including inappropriate contentography and masturbation, fornication, adultery, and contraception. I think that all of these, in differing ways, separate sex from it's specific (primary) purpose--again to be clear, I'm not saying that the only purpose of sex is procreation--which is the conception of children within marriage.

To put it very simply, I think that the price of intense sexual pleasure during the fertile period is responsibility for the tremendous gift of new life. Put more positively and correctly, the reason that sexual pleasure is so great is because it's meaning is procreative. If one is not open to and able to meet that responsibility, then I think a person should show respect for the gift of sex and one's spouse and one's self by abstaining.

Again, I don't judge anyone. I've lost my innocence in my life and only gained it again through the mercy of Mary and Jesus. I think deep down we all have an innocent self which knows that sex is not something cheap but something sacred.

 

[benedictaoo]

Oh boy, what have I stumbled upon... The purpose of sex is found in marriage only. If you're looking outside of marriage, you would be confused by the Catholic understanding of it. It's for marrieds only. It is for procreation and unity of the married couple, not just procreation, not just unity but both. And it's not "anything goes" as long as it's consensual either. A lot of crazy logic and confused morality has been thrown around here.

The Catholic POV is knowing what marriage and sex is for. Catholic theology so, so lofty and deep no one could possible explain this all in a debate forum setting such as this. It takes studying it, certainly not debating it, but here it is in a nut shell. It's all about family. God Himself is not a loner up there in heaven but a He is a family. Family is the beginning and end of it all. It is the foundation and the core, root of life itself and our existence. Family is the human race so that is why God made for man a woman and they are to multiply. Sex and marriage is about self giving, giving all of ourselves holding nothing back. The self giving love of man and woman and the unity that creates is expressed in sex where man and woman become one by giving all of themselves (even fertility) to the other. They become one and just as God is one God but a family (Father, Son, Spirit), so is the couple and that bond of married love results in a child. That is the image of God (who is the Holy Trinity) we are created in. And just as God gave all of Himself holding nothing back to us, we are to give to one another the same total self giving, holding nothing back. So that is why contraception is wrong.

The arguments against this put fourth here is what happens when you take sex outside of marriage. We are talking about sex in marriage. Anything other than that is sin. It's like a fire inside your fireplace. Its warm, gives light, heats your home but take that out of it's fireplace and put it where it does not belong (middle of your living room) and it burns your house down. The sex that happens outside marriage is the cause of problems and abuse. The sin is lust and that is the cause of abortion and abuse, people just not respecting sex being for marriage only between man and woman. Contraception is to take away the God designed, natural result of sex which would be a child. Sex outside of marriage is just reckless and dangerous, like a fire that burns outside of your fireplace.

No one here should deny that God designed sex to result in a child because it does. Contraception and abortion is to erase that result. Period. There is nothing noble behind that. It is what it is. To rid one self of the natural results so to rid one self of any consequence of doing what you are not supposed to be doing if you are engaging in sex outside of a loving man/woman marriage.

To alter God's design is why it is sinful. God design men to be fertile 100% of the time but not women. So sex was made for procreation but it is not only for procreation because women are not always fertile and will not always be through out her life like men will. Sex is also to be in union, to bond, to be one with each other. Women are not always going to be able to conceive so if there are grave reasons a couple should not have a child they certainly can be celibate but if the marriage can not withstand that then they can work with nature (God) to not conceive. Not thwart Him with contraception. And God can not be stopped no, He can't but God is not going to interfere with our free willed human choices just as He did not interfere with Adam and Eve's choice to disobey Him. If man being so smart with the intelligence God gave him wants to be a god and create for himself contraception, good for him, God isn't going to stop him, he can sin all he wants, it's called free will. God is not going to impose His will on us in that type of context. He allows us to choose for ourselves. But God is there with mercy and forgiveness when we choose not His will but our own. It's just a cop out to say, If God wants a baby, latex won't stop Him and Married couple can do what they want in their bedrooms." He design the whole thing the way He did and that is His will, that we follow it His way. If you don't, you don't. God does allow man to go his own way even to the point he changes God's creation. One of these days He'll have enough and come again.

So, it's all about the means we use and the intentions behind it. It's not always sinful to prevent a pregnancy for grave reasons like heath issues or poverty but the means we use must be according to God's creative design. Contraception and abortion is certainly not it.