Confused about the afterlife...

strangertoo

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:confused:
What does capitalism have to do with this subject?

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Beyond that, I did not make any statement that indicated the spirit wasn't endless.

the spirit is of God , is the creator ... that is why it is endless... but equally it is necessarily perfect to be endless... so it is undivided, it is ONE... the spirit cannot be lost in any sense, there is no "spiritual death" even possible in any sense...
 
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Ran77

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1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Unfortunately, for your argument capitalism does not equate to the love of money. It is an economic system that inherently is neither good, nor evil.



the spirit is of God , is the creator ... that is why it is endless... but equally it is necessarily perfect to be endless... so it is undivided, it is ONE... the spirit cannot be lost in any sense, there is no "spiritual death" even possible in any sense...

Once again, I have made no statement that indicates an end to the spirit. Nor did I indicate that the spirit could be divided. And you just claiming that "no spiritual death even possilbe" is not enough to prove your point.


:)
 
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Fascinated With God

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I also think that #4 makes the most sense, it's just that I'm extremely paranoid.

The thing with Hell is that apparently people who go there are separated from God. But if they are separated from God, that means...

God won't know exactly how loud they are screaming.
God won't know if they are saying anything.
God won't know what they are thinking about.

That would mean there's something going on that God doesn't know about. Really?
God is omnipresent, that is part of the Nicean Creed. 2 Thesselonians 1:9 does not contradict omnipresence when it says, "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord". Compare this to 2 Corinthians 5:9, "willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." It is a reference to death, but it is not saying that while we are alive that God can't hear us or know our thoughts. Also compare 2 Thess 1:9 with Psalms 139:8, "If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol (Hell), you are there!"
 
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Timothew

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God is omnipresent, that is part of the Nicean Creed.

Here is the Nicene Creed:

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

**May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

I don't see anytihng about omnipresence in the Nicene Creed.
 
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Fascinated With God

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I don't see anytihng about omnipresence in the Nicene Creed.

It is right a the top:

Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
You might not think that refers to omnipresence, but the authors did. Note the reference to Colossians 1, if you do not think that verses 15 and 16 uphold God's omnipresence then look at the next verse: "And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Athanasius wrote a treatises called, "Omnipresence of God", so clearly the authors of the Creed believed in omnipresence. If you do a google search on "omnipresence nicene creed" there are tons of hits all asserting that the Nicene Creed stipulates the omnipresence of God.

If that is not good enough for you then you will just have to accept that the Bible asserts God's omnipresence:

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You.
1 Kings 8:27

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.
Jeremiah 23:24

The eyes of the Lord are in every place.
Proverbs 15:3

Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol (Hell), you are there!
Psalms 139:7-8
 
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Ronald

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the spirit is of God , is the creator .. that is why it is endless

The "new born again spirit" is eternal but all people are born with a dead spirit, disconnected from God. They have a soul which is not the same as the spirit. "For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart."Heb. 4:12 The soul is the mind, will, emotions and creative nature with personal habits and such -- the invisible you, made in the image of God, yet lacking the spirit initially. This is why they are lost, blind and until Christ lifts the veil and gives them life, death moves closer. The spiritual compartment of the soul is empty (dead) until you are born again. Then the Holy Spirit takes up residence in your temple. You are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
However, the unbeliever does not have a spirit or God, and therefore does not have eternity.


... but equally it is necessarily perfect to be endless... so it is undivided, it is ONE... the spirit cannot be lost in any sense, there is no "spiritual death" even possible in any sense...

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt.10:28

The first death is physical. The second death is of the soul. There are many references to the destruction and perishing of the person as the final form of judgment. Do a study on Hell (the Lake of Fire) and you will find that judgment is clear -- all will not be saved in the end as some universalists claim. The Bible is clear about many who will perish and suffer judgment (whether eternal or not)!
 
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strangertoo

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"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt.10:28

understand that the soul is a created thing , NOT the essence of a man which is the spirit, in the image of God who is spirit ...

observe from scripture that the daed body BECOMES a soul, a life, by means of God giving the spirit, and that the spirit always returns to God because it is of God :-

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [spirit] of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

thus the soul [life] begins [and ends] with the spirit as-it-were entering and leaving the body [but note that the spirit is NOT physical, it is of God ]

James 2:26 ... the body without the spirit is dead,...

without the spirit there is no soul [life] in the body ... understand then that it is the spirit by which mankind is resurrected to a new soul free of sin [Rom 6:7] ... to lose one's soul is only to lose one's life , life [ and so soul] will be restored, all are freed from hell and death [Rev 20:13] ... do not listen to the nonsense of sinners, they do not know, and repeat what other sinners teach ,who equally cannot know... only saints are baptised to know the Truth of God [John 16:13] and few find that way in this life [Matt 7:14] ... so following the many one will be deceived and destroyed [Matt 7:13] for continuing sin, abuse of others instead of Loving them ...

The first death is physical. The second death is of the soul.

BOTH deaths are physical and both are the end of the soul [life] , that is what death is ...a return to the spirit , which always returns to God , nowhere else to go [and being of God it is indestructible, not subject to anything physical whatever]

all the many are destroyed [Matt 7:13] because few find the way of Love, stop abusing others with sin ... [matt 7:14] ... but NOTE that COUNTLESS MANY are later saved -Rev 7:9-10... so clearly destruction of the body and soul does not end the man , the spitrit of a man is all God needs to resurrect ALL to life -Rev 20:13 in the kingdom come , just and unjust ... but the few just are FIRST at Jesus' return because they must create the kingdom and rule and minister there ... so they are saved by grace in this life, a FEW saints ... and the billions destroyed, dead until the kingdom is ready for salvation of billions... for who did you think the king/priest saints serve and rule by Love under Jesus ? ...there is only the many destroyed in this world :-

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

;but note that it is the new earth, not this earth:-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. [no more sin]

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
There are many references to the destruction and perishing of the person as the final form of judgment.

in your imagination and fears perhaps, but the spirit of a man is of God , one with God , indestructible... the individual needs to be conformed to Love to be with God, but God has said He will do that ... not by force but by causing men to see He is right, Love is a better way of life than sin...

as Jesus says, all will accept him as ruler of their lives [by Love, no more abuse of others] eventually :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

thus for now it comes down to whether one believes in Love and waht Jesus says will be, or in sin and Satan as the whole world will [Rev 13:3-4] bar the few who find the way now as saints [Jude 1:14] not sinners any longer ...

Do a study on Hell (the Lake of Fire) and you will find that judgment is clear --

rather stop sinning and get baptised by God Himself to KNOW ABSOLUTELY all Truth from Him -John 16:13 ... then one will know what nonsense sinenrs talk and see through their 'studies' turning scripture of Love into scripture of continual sin of the masses as advocated by Satan worldwide -Rev 13:3-4 ... ,man-made religion of Satan in league with man-made politics of liars... read about what Jesus says about it !

all will not be saved in the end as some universalists claim.

it's Jesus who says so, but is well aware that sinners will not believe him , but believe in the false image of him created by Satan -Rev 13:3-4- almost everyone of this earth ...

The Bible is clear about many who will perish and suffer judgment (whether eternal or not)!

judgement of God is just ,as to who still abuses others with sin, who Loves all as Jesus commands...

the first judgement is when Jesus takes the FEW saints at his return [Jude 1:14] , few find the way [Matt 7:13] , Jesus says who they are [Rev 7:3-8] ... sinners ignore these words of scripture and pretend grace will save them despite continual sin, they never stop sinning but think grace will forgive them, but it doesn't [Rom 6:1-15]:-

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

thus it is ALL still sinning who are destroyed in the wrath of God against all sinners , the many of mass religion of sinners along with all other sinners in this earth -matt 7:13 - only the FEW saints are taken by Jesus, he says NONE that are still SINNERS ... so do you believe Jesus or not ? :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

it cannot really be said any more clearly, ALL still sinning will be DESTROYED after Jesus takes the FEW saints to begin building the kingdom come in the new earth...

God requires that the teaching be PURE so teaches all the saints Himself by His spirit , not even by the saints [Heb 8:10-11 - the ACTUAL new covenant of grace]

saints then only teach sinners, and few sinners listen ... the mass churches of religion are thus of Satan as Jesus has said they will be -Rev 13:3-4

but all are freed from hell eventually -Rev 20:13 and countless many saved at judgement day , again a FAIR judgement of who Loves in the righteous kingdom come, those who still sin dying a second death to free them yet again from sin [Rom 6:7], death being the main way sin is stopped in men, not the grace which saves only the few of this earth, the many are saved by WORKS [Rev 20:13] at judgement day [so much for sinners who prejudge in this earth, condemning themselves ,but fortunately for them falsely judging others in hypocrisy of Satan's version of 'Christianity' for sinners , not saints ]
 
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Timothew

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It is right a the top:

You might not think that refers to omnipresence, but the authors did. Note the reference to Colossians 1, if you do not think that verses 15 and 16 uphold God's omnipresence then look at the next verse: "And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Athanasius wrote a treatises called, "Omnipresence of God", so clearly the authors of the Creed believed in omnipresence. If you do a google search on "omnipresence nicene creed" there are tons of hits all asserting that the Nicene Creed stipulates the omnipresence of God.

If that is not good enough for you then you will just have to accept that the Bible asserts God's omnipresence:

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You.
1 Kings 8:27

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.
Jeremiah 23:24

The eyes of the Lord are in every place.
Proverbs 15:3

Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol (Hell), you are there!
Psalms 139:7-8
I believe in the omnipresence of God. I just don't see it the Nicene Creed.
Good scripture.
 
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Soulgazer

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I believe in the omnipresence of God. I just don't see it the Nicene Creed.
Good scripture.
I believe as we are all thoughts in the One Mind, we just disappear if the One Mind refuses to keep thinking us.

1. In Beginning1 was Mind;2 p. 124

And Mind was with GOD.1 2. So2 Mind was God.
This3 was in Beginning with GOD. 3. All kept coming into existence4 through5 it6;
And apart from it came into existence not a single [thing]. 4. What has come into existence in it7 was Life;8
And LIFE9 was the Light of the [true] Men.10 5. And the Light shineth in the Darkness;
And the Darkness did not emprison11 it. ~Gospel of John
 
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Albion

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I believe in the omnipresence of God. I just don't see it the Nicene Creed.

Fair enough, but does not the following:

"Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible"


suggest that very idea??

What, for instance, would be beyond the ability of the being who constructed everything??
 
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Timothew

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Fair enough, but does not the following:

"Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible"

suggest that very idea??

What, for instance, would be beyond the ability of the being who constructed everything??
I am the maker of all things chili and hot when I go camping. That doesn't mean that I am omnipresent in the camp chili.
(My essence is omnipresent in the tent later that night, due to the chili beans!)
 
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Albion

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I am the maker of all things chili and hot when I go camping. That doesn't mean that I am omnipresent in the camp chili.

Not quite the same thing, IMO, but I apologize for my mistake. I read "omnipresence" and somehow thought "omnipotence." I agree that omnipresence is less compelling an idea, although there are hints of it in Scripture. But that's not the Nicene Creed.
 
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Ronald

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understand that the soul is a created thing , NOT the essence of a man which is the spirit, in the image of God who is spirit ...

Every part of us was created! The soul and spirit is designed in the likeness of God's soul and spirit.
"Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you." LEV. 26:11
“Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations." Is. 42:1
"But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him." Heb. 10:38
“Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen;
My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased;
I will put My Spirit upon Him,
And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18


observe from scripture that the daed body BECOMES a soul, a life, by means of God giving the spirit, and that the spirit always returns to God because it is of God :-

No, a dead body still has a soul that is either in Hades (which will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire) or Heaven. At the resurrection, Christians will receive a new spiritual eternal body. Our spirits of course return to God but not those souls who have not been born again!
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [spirit] of life; and man became a living soul.

Adam and Eve were given a body, soul and spirit initially. The day they sinned, their spirits died, but they were still physically alive.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Correct, you understand part of it, yet your concept supporting "universalism" is wrong!
James 2:26 ... the body without the spirit is dead,...
Spiritually dead! All unbelievers are spiritually dead. We are made alive in Christ by being born again! This is basic stuff Strangertoo!


without the spirit there is no soul [life] in the body

Wrong again! All people have souls but lack the new spirit and the Holy Spirit as well.


... understand then that it is the spirit by which mankind is resurrected to a new soul free of sin

You do not have understanding. I'm wondering if you actually have the Holy Spirit -- since He teaches the truth and counsels us. We do make mistakes, but you are off on the fringe with these interpretations. The word is spiritually discerned and you are not discerning it. You're confused, but think you got it ... which is why so many of us on in this forum try to correct your misunderstandings. Whatever church you are learning this stuff from? However, if you believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures, follow Him, you will be saved and all this stuff will be sorted out later. You'll have this ah huh moment ...

[Rom 6:7] ... to lose one's soul is only to lose one's life , life [ and so soul] will be restored, all are freed from hell and death [Rev 20:13]

Misinterpretation again! Judgment of the dead in Hades leads to the second death in the Lake of Fire! Read the verse in context.

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Does that sound like these folks are going to heaven???
 
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BornOfWaterAndSpirit

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I'll clear it all up to you...

Death is defined as separation of body and soul.

Departed souls of people before death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, went to Hades (also known as Sheol). Everyone went there before the cross. Hades is a two part receptacle, one part is the Paradise (also known as Abraham's Bosom) and the other is Tartarus. Fallen angels are bound in Tartarus. This nature of Hades is best illustrated by Luke 16. When Jesus and thief on the cross died they both went to Paradise. Three days Jesus preached in Paradise, Hades was emptied of righteous people after Jesus was resurrected and ascended. Now all believers go to directly to Heaven, and rule with Christ the millennial kingdom (the Church). Unsaved crowd still go to Hades. During the Second Coming everyone will be resurrected. When Final Judgement comes, Hades will be thrown into Hell (Gehenna) it will be everlasting conscious torment.
 
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Fascinated With God

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I am the maker of all things chili and hot when I go camping. That doesn't mean that I am omnipresent in the camp chili.
(My essence is omnipresent in the tent later that night, due to the chili beans!)
Are you the maker of invisible chili as well as visible chili?
 
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BornOfWaterAndSpirit

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Where in the bible does it say "death is defined as separation of body and soul"? Can I have the scripture reference please?

"and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7
 
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Ronald

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Where in the bible does it say "death is defined as separation of body and soul"? Can I have the scripture reference please?

Physical and spiritual death is implied in Matt. 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Killing the body and not killing the soul is an obvious separation is it not?
 
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strangertoo

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Physical and spiritual death is implied in Matt. 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Killing the body and not killing the soul is an obvious separation is it not?

the words mistranslated here as 'hell' is 'gehenna' which is a reference not to 'hades' or 'sheol' , the words most frequently mistranslated as 'hell' in the bible
... all souls are freed from hades/sheol as Jesus reveals to us -Rev 20:13

but the lake of fire is the final trial of men, the final baptism of fire [Luke 3:16, 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Peter 1:7] ... so the only way out of the lake of fire is God's enduring mercy, translation to spirit , thus it is the end of physical life , the end of the soul... unlike death of sinners which always results in resurrection of the soul [life] freed from sin [Rom 6:7]

thus it is somewhat misleading to call the end of life a 'separation' , it is re-union with God of the spirit of man, finally free from return to the life/death cycle of sinners ... and at death, the end of the soul [life] , it is the spirit by which the soul is restored , not the soul ...

the mistake is to think that the soul [physical life] is the being of a man, since we are made in God's image, which is spirit, not flesh...

equally the bible is not at fault, but it's translators are, for not distinguishing 'hades' from 'gehenna' when they have nothing to do with one another... and neither is 'hell' in the sense most understand the mythical 'hell' of Dante's fictional work...

no wonder that folks get confused , the mistake is to learn from sinners who cannot know God or Jesus but pretend they do, as Jesus warned they would , worldwide -Rev 13:3-4

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:
whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Thus to know God from God Himself, simply stop sinning as the saints do ... Jesus promises all Truth from God Himself to all those who stop sinning, follow him by Loving instead of abusing folks with sin against them... John 16:13, Heb 8:9-10
 
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