Concerning creation called firmament.

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I cannot understand the word firmament. How can space hold water called firmament. Before there was a Earth planet there was two firmaments one above the Earth and one below the Earth in space, which was water before it was the Earth? First the heavens were created from the waters/firmaments above the Earth and below the Earth called sheol as another heaven called paradise or heaven.
My question is how does space react to water which God changed to heaven and earth?
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Papias

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Genesis 1 describes our world as a flat earth, underneath a hard dome, underwater, with the stars as little lights inside the dome. This makes perfect sense from an ancient point of view, even if it's not literally how the world is. Bible scholars have recognized this for a long time, and it's pretty clear reading Genesis 1, as you have noticed.

This is the world described by Genesis:
mod-4.jpg

-In Christ-

Papias
 
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Ken Behrens

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Water also means primordial energy in the creation account (and in a lot of ancient science). The firmament is the boundary between the energy of physical life and the causative factors that God created to make it happen. The Hebrews modeled it in successive heavens, science (unified field theories) today models it in adjoint dimensions and various types of trans-dimensional operators. The verbiage works very well, though, at least for me. Note that God calls the firmament the heavens, then He has birds fly in the firmament of heaven. Thus the firmament has a firmament of its own.

You see this in ancient Roman science for example, where Pliny says gravity is heaven pushing us away. And Pliny also says the earth is round, as was known to all ancient people. The Greeks even measured it. Flat earth is mostly a misunderstanding of the middle ages.
 
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Calminian

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I cannot understand the word firmament. How can space hold water called firmament. Before there was a Earth planet there was two firmaments one above the Earth and one below the Earth in space, which was water before it was the Earth? First the heavens were created from the waters/firmaments above the Earth and below the Earth called sheol as another heaven called paradise or heaven.
My question is how does space react to water which God changed to heaven and earth?
name one

Here's an in-depth article on the subject.

Does Genesis teach solid-dome cosmology?

Firmament is the Hebrew word raqiya' and actually means Heaven. "And God called the Firmament, Heaven...." Gen. 1:8 There's really no mystery to it. It was an expanse that was named by God. That name is "heaven." If you want to know what this expanse is, just look at how heaven is described in the Bible.

Heaven, therefore, is a great expanse in which the sun moon and stars are placed. It's the vast realm of outer-space.

As far as the waters, these appear to be the building blocks of the earth. The waters of day 1 and 2 were not the ocean, but the original fluid of particles that God used to form both the land and sea on day 3.

But as you mentioned, only a portion was used. The rest must be at the end of space. The article covers this in detail. You may find it helpful.
 
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mark kennedy

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I cannot understand the word firmament. How can space hold water called firmament. Before there was a Earth planet there was two firmaments one above the Earth and one below the Earth in space, which was water before it was the Earth? First the heavens were created from the waters/firmaments above the Earth and below the Earth called sheol as another heaven called paradise or heaven.
My question is how does space react to water which God changed to heaven and earth?
name one
That's easy:

H7549 רָקִיעַ (raqiya`) Raqia comes from the Hebrew verb raqa, which means "beat," "stamp," "beat out" and "spread out." Occurring 11 times in the Old Testament, raqa has the meaning to "stamp one's feet" (twice), stamp something with the feet (once), spreading metal (four times), spreading out the earth (three times), and spreading the sky or the clouds (once). So, the verb raqa does not necessarily refer to the beating out of a solid object, but to a spreading out process, whether the object be solid or not. God and Science

It just simply means the atmosphere. Space doesn't react, if you mean the expanse above the atmosphere. Heaven, where God lives, and Hell or death, where the dead dwell, are another matter entirely.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mmksparbud

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http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation1.html

Genesis 1:6
and Elohiym said, a sheet will exist in the midst of the waters, and he existed, making a separation between waters to waters,


SHEET: A broad piece of cloth or metal. As hammered out flat.Strong's #: 7549
SHEET


The following is an excerpt from the Ancient Hebrew Research Center Website.

The word רקיע raqiya [H:7549], translated as firmament, comes from the root word רקע raqa [H:7554] which can be found in several passages including Isaiah 40:19;

The sculpture is poured by the craftsman and he overlays the cast with gold and castings of silver chains.

Raqa is the process of hammering out a piece of gold or other metal into thin plates which was then applied to a carved or casted image such as we read in Numbers 16:39;

And El’azar the priest took the copper censers, which they brought near and were burned and they were hammered out into plates for the altar.


Here, the phrase "hammered out" is again the verb root רקע raqa [H:7554]. The word רקיע raqiya [H:7549], as found in Genesis 1:6 is literally a "hammered out sheet". There are some scientists who have speculated that before the flood there was a thick sheet of water surrounding the earth high in the atmosphere. It is then possible that the opening of the windows of heaven which brought down the floodwaters (see Genesis 7:11) is the collapse of this "hammered out sheet" of water. It is also theorized that the sheet of water would have filtered out harmful sun rays and contributed to the longevity of life on the earth prior to the flood.
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/articles_s.html#3986
 
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Papias

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mmksparbud is right in that the translation shows the making of a solid structure (and mentioned and shown post #2). There is no scientific basis for the rest of his post. But that's OK.

Scholars who go by the text have know for some time now that Genesis describes the hard dome/flat earth. Here is a peer-reviewed paper summarizing why - and it's pretty obvious. https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...s/text/articles-books/seely-firmament-wtj.pdf

There are literally dozens of other scripture verses that make it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bibles describe a flat earth, under a hard dome, with the sun and stars stuck to the inside of the hard dome. I can post them if you like. The upshot for Christians is that this means that God is speaking to the understanding of the audience - what we should expect from a God who cares about us and meets us on our level.

Here is a discussion among Christians of why this is very important for our faith: http://biologos.org/blogs/archive/the-firmament-of-genesis-1-is-solid-but-that’s-not-the-point

In Christ-

Papias
 
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mark kennedy

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I am totally ignorant of a dome. I feel that space was first the God spoke and it was created the Earth the planets the sun, moon, heaven hell, and such. Thank you for listening. Question ?
A dome is just a manner of speaking, it's kind of how it would seem if we were just looking up and wondering if it has a top. Yes, the sun, moon and stars along with the sphere we inhabit were all created Gen. 1:1. Later God would create the atmosphere, kind of the way gold is 'hammered' over wood in the building of the Ark of the Covenant. God effectively hammers out the atmosphere making it suitable for life. On day 4 God is still working on the atmosphere and 'set' the sun, moon and stars in the sky. God isn't creating these heavenly bodies, he is adjusting the atmosphere so that they can be regularly visible. Firmament is really just another word for atmosphere. Space is just what the word implies, it's the area between objects. Outer space is the distance between the sun, moon, stars etc.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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A dome is just a manner of speaking, it's kind of how it would seem if we were just looking up and wondering if it has a top. Yes, the sun, moon and stars along with the sphere we inhabit were all created Gen. 1:1. Later God would create the atmosphere, kind of the way gold is 'hammered' over wood in the building of the Ark of the Covenant. God effectively hammers out the atmosphere making it suitable for life. On day 4 God is still working on the atmosphere and 'set' the sun, moon and stars in the sky. God isn't creating these heavenly bodies, he is adjusting the atmosphere so that they can be regularly visible. Firmament is really just another word for atmosphere. Space is just what the word implies, it's the area between objects. Outer space is the distance between the sun, moon, stars etc.

Grace and peace,
Mark
The atmosphere part, I can understand, it can be created to create, Science isn't my best study. Question ?
 
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mark kennedy

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The atmosphere part, I can understand, it can be created to create, Science isn't my best study. Question ?
It was hammered out, created to sustain life. It doesn't take a lot of science if any. The atmosphere is the air and other things around the earth that sustains the living things on earth. It's refereed to as the firmament. what could be simpler then that?
 
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mmksparbud

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mmksparbud is right in that the translation shows the making of a solid structure (and mentioned and shown post #2). There is no scientific basis for the rest of his post. But that's OK.

Scholars who go by the text have know for some time now that Genesis describes the hard dome/flat earth. Here is a peer-reviewed paper summarizing why - and it's pretty obvious. https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...s/text/articles-books/seely-firmament-wtj.pdf

There are literally dozens of other scripture verses that make it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bibles describe a flat earth, under a hard dome, with the sun and stars stuck to the inside of the hard dome. I can post them if you like. The upshot for Christians is that this means that God is speaking to the understanding of the audience - what we should expect from a God who cares about us and meets us on our level.

Here is a discussion among Christians of why this is very important for our faith: http://biologos.org/blogs/archive/the-firmament-of-genesis-1-is-solid-but-that’s-not-the-point

In Christ-

Papias


I should have added: I only posted what a Jewish interpretation of the word says. It does not mean that I agree with it, nor that I understand the full subject. There is nothing in any of it, as far as I am concerned, that implies in any way, that this demands a flat earth, I do not believe in a flat earth, nor do I believe the bible says that. The verses that people use to imply that are all taken out of context and have been explained by their original meanings. Such as the 4 corners of he earth--certainly did not mean the earth is a square--just means the 4 directions, the footstool does not mean a flat surface, it is derived from the practice of the conqueror placing their foot on the neck of the conquered--that was the footstool---the neck is not flat.
 
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Calminian

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I am totally ignorant of a dome. I feel that space was first the God spoke and it was created the Earth the planets the sun, moon, heaven hell, and such. Thank you for listening. Question ?

Dome would be an inaccurate way of view the expanse of Day 2. As mentioned, God named the firmament heaven. Therefore, heaven is the expanse of day-2, and the expanse of day-2 is heaven. in some false views the firmament is a barrier between heaven and earth, but this ignores the the simple definition God gave. Heaven and the firmament are the same.

Now there are two views about the scope of the firmament. Is it merely the atmosphere, or is it larger? Could it actually be the entire cosmos?

I'm with the latter view. I believe it is cosmological in scope, not merely atmospheric. If the sun moon and stars are in the expanse, it can't be limited to the atmosphere.

Gen. 1:16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,​
 
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Papias

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I am totally ignorant of a dome.

Well, sure - because we are used to our modern view. But that's not the view described in Genesis, and throughout the scriptures. The scriptures repeat over and over that the world is described as flat, under a hard dome (firmament), under water. That's because that's what people thought back then, and our glorious God talks to people in ways they will understand. You can see a picture up in post #2 which makes this easy to understand.

You can see this by reading Genesis and these other scriptures (I'll list some more in a minute). As mentioned before (and backed up with a published paper), biblical scholars, who have studied this their whole lives, are clear that the Bibles describe a flat earth, under a hard dome, under water.

Firmament means "hard dome". That's why it has "firm" right in the word.

Here is the NRSV, considered by scholars to be the most reliable translation:
Gen 1: 6-17

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. 8 God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

.... And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 God set them in the dome of the sky

Other translations use words like "firmament", and "vault", both of which also mean "hard dome".

People sometimes try to deny that the Bible describes a dome above us - because they think that our God has to describe our modern view of the solar system when he's talking to ancient Hebrews. It's really just that they'd rather that they could re-write their Bible instead of letting God speak to us in his holy word. You can see that on this thread.

I feel that space was first the God spoke and it was created

I think that's pushing our modern view onto the text. I don't think that the Bible itself ever says that God said "let there be outer space" and it was created. What verse were you thinking of, specifically?

As mentioned above, here are some of the sections that show the worldview of a flat earth, under a hard dome, underwater (below).

In Christ Jesus-

Papias

Flat Earth-

Bible tells us that the earth is flat like a piece of clay stamped under a seal (Job 38:13-14), that it has edges as only a flat plane would (Job 38:13-14,.Psa 19:4), is set on a foundation, like a table (2Sm 22:16, Ps 18:15, 102:25, Pr 8:27-29, Is 48:13), has a length as only a flat plane would (Dan 4:11, Job 11:9, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Job 38:13, Job 38:44, Jrm 16:19), that it is a circular disk (Isa 40:22), and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11) heaven (Job 28:24) or mountain (Matt 4:8) or which is impossible for a sphere, but possible for a flat disk. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, any one of these passages shows a flat earth. Taken together, they are even more clear. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

Geocentrism-

The Bible describes the earth as unmovable, set on a foundation of either pillars in water (1 Sam 2:8, 1 Chr 16:30, Job 9:6, 38:4, Psa 24:1-2, 75:s3, 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 136:6). It also tells us that, although the earth does not move, the sun and stars do move about it (Josh 10:12, Psa 19:4-6, 50:1, Ecc 1:5 (note “returns”, not perspective), Hab 3:11). And that the stars could be dropped down onto the earth like fruit falling from a tree (Rev. 6:13). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show geocentrism. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

We live in a Planetarium (under a hard dome)-

The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal bowl made by a hammer"- Gen 1:6-8, 1:14-17) as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2, Pr 8:27-29, Ezk 1:26), that is arched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18 even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14). Ex 24:10 suggests that it is like sapphire. Joshua 10:12 estimates how far the Sun and Moon are from Earth’s surface. The Sun was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Gibeon, and the Moon was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Aijalon, showing that one wasn’t sufficient for both valleys (too close). So some basic trigonometry shows that they are therefore at a roughly similar height as the valleys are from each other – which is around 20 miles. Similarly, the whole Star of Bethlehem story in Mt (where a star designates a single house) makes no sense if stars are millions of miles across, but makes perfect sense if the stars are little lights hanging from a dome above us. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show a solid sky above us. And again, many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.
 
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