Church plans to have a Qu'ran burning on 9/11/10

[Markus6]

Oh, and I forgot, at the time I used a few different secular message boards and chat rooms and talked to several of them. And no I am not basing my opinion from those several but they did confirm for me what I was already seeing and hearing from the national media.

OK so you did not, at all, hear from "most" American Muslims but most of the Muslim views presented in the media and that you came across on the internet were as you describe. I would definitely argue that the media and the internet does not represent a fair cross section of Muslim views (or anyones for that matter - imagine the view you'd get of Christians from just those two sources).

 

[nephilimiyr]

OK so you did not, at all, hear from "most" American Muslims but most of the Muslim views presented in the media and that you came across on the internet were as you describe. I would definitely argue that the media and the internet does not represent a fair cross section of Muslim views (or anyones for that matter - imagine the view you'd get of Christians from just those two sources).

True, but for like the muslims that they were interviewing were all considered as spokes persons and or leaders in the muslim communities that they repressented. If anyone in those communities vehemetly disagreed with how they were being repressented in the media by their leaders I know I certainly have not heard from them. you would think by now 9 years after 9-11 that they would've spoken up by now.

Otherwise what you said is basically correct.

 

[nephilimiyr]

OK so you did not, at all, hear from "most" American Muslims but most of the Muslim views presented in the media and that you came across on the internet were as you describe. I would definitely argue that the media and the internet does not represent a fair cross section of Muslim views (or anyones for that matter - imagine the view you'd get of Christians from just those two sources).

I went to youtube to see if there were any old news videos from that time around 9-11 to show you some of the reactions by muslim Americans but I couldn't find any. However I did find this video which I really liked. I really liked what this muslim man had to say and only wish that more muslims were like him. I give this man two big thumbs up because he's right, the leaders of Islam in the US are all about victomization and whining and complaining. this is the man who should sit down with that Imam from NY and have a long talk with him.
YouTube - The Eighth Anniversary of 9/11 and American Muslims (Ch 3, Phoenix, AZ)

 

[nephilimiyr]

But instead of seeing alot of news like the above the majority of it is about things like this, which is just disgusting!

YouTube - CNN: Radical American Muslims praise Fort Hood shooter

 

[Bladers]

The pastor chickened out, he said he won't do it anymore!!
What a wuss..

LOL i spoke too soon, looks like its back oon.

 

[Questioning Christian]

I guess I should repeat myself since it didn't get any traction the last time I said it.

We're so worried about inciting angry Muslims by the burning of the Qu'ran.

But we forget that these same Muslim extremists we are afraid of inciting, these are the people who have been burning our flag for as long as I can remember. I'm the little kid who used to watch Frank Reynolds on ABC Nightly News before there ever was a Peter Jennings. I watched Nightly News in the late 1970's and I remember scenes from that time until now, of those Muslims burning our flag.

So if Terry Jones burns their Qu'ran, maybe the gander is getting what was good for the goose.

30+ years of American flag burning ... that's a lot of payback coming.

And the Muslims are infamous for believing in retribution.

Me personally - I wouldn't burn a Qu'ran.

I view it as an affront and as unnecessary.

But maybe this is a classic case of divine retribution.

 

[Faulty]

I guess I should repeat myself since it didn't get any traction the last time I said it.

We're so worried about inciting angry Muslims by the burning of the Qu'ran.

But we forget that these same Muslim extremists we are afraid of inciting, these are the people who have been burning our flag for as long as I can remember. I'm the little kid who used to watch Frank Reynolds on ABC Nightly News before there ever was a Peter Jennings. I watched Nightly News in the late 1970's and I remember scenes from that time until now, of those Muslims burning our flag.

So if Terry Jones burns their Qu'ran, maybe the gander is getting what was good for the goose.

30+ years of American flag burning ... that's a lot of payback coming.

And the Muslims are infamous for believing in retribution.

Me personally - I wouldn't burn a Qu'ran.

I view it as an affront and as unnecessary.

But maybe this is a classic case of divine retribution.

My concern has nothing to do with inciting the Muslims to anger at all. My concern is that this may galvanize some of them against the gospel for many years to come, because it is christianity that will be held responsible for this action, not one guy.

He's doing this in a role as an ambassador of Christ and that effects all of us. He's bringing us shame for years to come because people will remember "that pastor who burned the Korans", or even almost burned them, for many years and some will undoubtedly impart his foolishness to our account. How many of us are still hindered at times because of abortion doctor murders or other acts by 'christians'? These are real issues for some people.

We have been hurt, and consequently, so have some muslims, because they will have a roadblock of our own making to receiving our message.

This is a prime example of taking our Lord's name in vain. He's damaged us all in the name of a temporary and worthless political statement.

 

[Mobiosity]

My concern has nothing to do with inciting the Muslims to anger at all. My concern is that this may galvanize some of them against the gospel for many years to come, because it is christianity that will be held responsible for this action, not one guy.

He's doing this in a role as an ambassador of Christ and that effects all of us. He's bringing us shame for years to come because people will remember "that pastor who burned the Korans", or even almost burned them, for many years and some will undoubtedly impart his foolishness to our account. How many of us are still hindered at times because of abortion doctor murders or other acts by 'christians'? These are real issues for some people.

We have been hurt, and consequently, so have some muslims, because they will have a roadblock of our own making to receiving our message.

This is a prime example of taking our Lord's name in vain. He's damaged us all in the name of a temporary and worthless political statement.

Dude!!

 

[Leah]

My concern has nothing to do with inciting the Muslims to anger at all. My concern is that this may galvanize some of them against the gospel for many years to come, because it is christianity that will be held responsible for this action, not one guy.

He's doing this in a role as an ambassador of Christ and that effects all of us. He's bringing us shame for years to come because people will remember "that pastor who burned the Korans", or even almost burned them, for many years and some will undoubtedly impart his foolishness to our account. How many of us are still hindered at times because of abortion doctor murders or other acts by 'christians'? These are real issues for some people.

We have been hurt, and consequently, so have some muslims, because they will have a roadblock of our own making to receiving our message.

This is a prime example of taking our Lord's name in vain. He's damaged us all in the name of a temporary and worthless political statement.

Excellently said, Faulty!

 

[Leah]

Westboro Baptist. Oh good.

Oh no.....

Pray for them!

 

[BlackSabb]

I can see an upside to this proposed Quran burning. Just look at all the angry, violent protests from Muslims. This shows the world that Islam is not a peaceful religion, but one of hatred, anger and violence.

It shows the world that no one can say anything against Islam for fear of reprisal. And if people wake up to themselves in Western nations, it shows that we should not be accomodating to the Islamic faith but be trying to bolster and encourage other faiths instead-anything except Islam.

I don't support a Quran burning but it vindicates that the world lives in fear of Muslims and their hatred, anger, violence and terrorism.

 

[nephilimiyr]

My concern has nothing to do with inciting the Muslims to anger at all. My concern is that this may galvanize some of them against the gospel for many years to come, because it is christianity that will be held responsible for this action, not one guy.

He's doing this in a role as an ambassador of Christ and that effects all of us. He's bringing us shame for years to come because people will remember "that pastor who burned the Korans", or even almost burned them, for many years and some will undoubtedly impart his foolishness to our account. How many of us are still hindered at times because of abortion doctor murders or other acts by 'christians'? These are real issues for some people.

We have been hurt, and consequently, so have some muslims, because they will have a roadblock of our own making to receiving our message.

This is a prime example of taking our Lord's name in vain. He's damaged us all in the name of a temporary and worthless political statement.

I don't believe anybody should be given a pass on judging a whole group of people because of the actions of a very few. I don't care whether they are christians or muslims, it makes no difference.

Isn't this one of the big objections several of you have about those who are against the building of this mosque in NY? Yes it is. Several of you have said that we shouldn't judge all muslims because a few of them are terrorists because not all muslims are terrorists but then you say nothing about about the muslims who you believe will judge all christians by the actions of a very few. You may say that it's because we should know better but for a peaceful religion like Islam, they should know better just as much! You all seem to be showing a double standard here with this. And on top of it you are showing that you believe that most muslims don't have the sense or mental capacity to be able to differenciate between a very few extremists and the norm. Why do you think you're the only ones who are able to do this but muslims can't? Good question....

I mean really, if what you think is correct and muslims are incapable or refuse to differenciate between extremists and the norm then all the concerns expressed in these threads about this mosque being built should be a real concern for us all. Why? because we're never going to stop the extremist elements of our religions from taking matters into their own hands and doing things.

 

[BlackSabb]

You all seem to be showing a double standard here with this. And on top of it you are showing that you believe that most muslims don't have the sense or mental capacity to be able to differentiate between a very few extremists and the norm. Why do you think you're the only ones who are able to do this but muslims can't? Good question....

Let me correct you on something. From my observations of Muslims and Christians, it's obvious that both have extremists and radical fundamentalists. Eg, the Westboro Baptist Church. However, from what I have seen and heard, there are MAJOR differences between the two:

1. There are far fewer radical fundamentalist Christians than Muslims. The Islamic faith has more than their fair share of extremists. Can anyone cite an example of an entire nation of radical, violent and extremist Christians, similar to an entire nation of extremist Muslims such as Iran?

2. Islamic extremists are far more dangerous than Christian extremists. What's the worst that the WBC do? Wave placards at funerals? What's the worst that radical Muslims do?


Well, we all know the answer to that.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Let me correct you on something. From my observations of Muslims and Christians, it's obvious that both have extremists and radical fundamentalists. Eg, the Westboro Baptist Church. However, from what I have seen and heard, there are MAJOR differences between the two:

1. There are far fewer radical fundamentalist Christians than Muslims. The Islamic faith has more than their fair share of extremists. Can anyone cite an example of an entire nation of radical, violent and extremist Christians, similar to an entire nation of extremist Muslims such as Iran?

I think you might have missed all the protests in Iran after the last presidential election. Basically I think it's wrong to attribute the actions of a government to the people who are being governed, even if the government is a democracy. No, not all the muslims in Iran are extremists or violent. The people in charge maybe extremists and violent but not the whole population.

2. Islamic extremists are far more dangerous than Christian extremists. What's the worst that the WBC do? Wave placards at funerals? What's the worst that radical Muslims do?

When you consider that now days the worst christian extremists will do is offend you and hurt your feelings and maybe scare you into believeing they are trying to change your way of life but Muslim extremists will simply kill you and themselves without a second though, yeah you're right but that is in no way a reason I can think of to give a pass to people and not admonish them and call them out.

 

[probinson]

Isn't this one of the big objections several of you have about those who are against the building of this mosque in NY? Yes it is. Several of you have said that we shouldn't judge all muslims because a few of them are terrorists because not all muslims are terrorists

Yep. That's what I've said.

but then you say nothing about about the muslims who you believe will judge all christians by the actions of a very few.

Certainly some Muslims would judge all Christians by the actions of a few, not unlike some Christians judge all Muslims by the actions of a few, but I don't think all Muslims would. More likely, it would be a small minority.

But that's kinda not the point. Why do something to add fuel to an already blazing fire?

In a leadership class I once attended, the object lesson that was used was that as leaders, we have 2 buckets; one contains gasoline, and one contains water. We will encounter many fires. We have a choice which bucket to use. It doesn't matter how the fire started.

You may say that it's because we should know better but for a peaceful religion like Islam, they should know better just as much!

Actually, I would say it has more to do with this;

1 Peter 4:12-19 (NIV)
Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
​

These verses say it all. We should not be surprised when we suffer and are insulted because of the name of Christ. We should also "continue to do good", because "it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God." That's why I say that regardless of what Muslims may or may not think, we should continue to do good.

You all seem to be showing a double standard here with this.

There is a "double standard" of sorts, as in this case, there should be. But the phrase "double standard" has a lot of negative connotations attached to it. So in this case, it would probably be more accurate to call it a "different" standard.

Again, my interactions with people who profess to be Christians will definitely take on a different standard than those who do not. Why? Because as a body of believers, we're told that we should admonish one another, edify one another, correct one another, hold one another accountable... these are things that I can't do with Muslims, because they are not part of the same body that we are.

And on top of it you are showing that you believe that most muslims don't have the sense or mental capacity to be able to differenciate between a very few extremists and the norm.

Not at all. In fact, I'm almost certain that most Muslims would have no problem differentiating "normal" Christians from the extremists. That still is no reason to pour gas on a raging fire.

Why do you think you're the only ones who are able to do this but muslims can't? Good question....

It would be a good question if that's what we thought. But speaking only for myself, I don't think that at all.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I was just reading a rather disturbing book about the Jihad being looked upon as the modern day Elijah using shock tactics to rouse the Islamic masses to awareness of the Baal ideals of captitalism. As Elijah saw it, Israel was selling it's soul for the material benifits of trade with Phonicia and Damascus. The inclusiveness of it's trade partners values meant foriegn influence was welcomed, not seen as corrupt.So what is seen as progress now and considered the grace of God's favor was in direct conflict with the law at that time. Especially the rights of inheritance which I see as care of the land. Some strange observations in it.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Certainly some Muslims would judge all Christians by the actions of a few, not unlike some Christians judge all Muslims by the actions of a few, but I don't think all Muslims would. More likely, it would be a small minority.

Ok? UM, I have no idea why you feel the need to tell me this as I didn't accuse you or anybody else of believeing all muslims would.

ut that's kinda not the point. Why do something to add fuel to an already blazing fire?

Um, what are you talking about? I was addressing what Faulty said his concerns are, which is this "My concern is that this may galvanize some of them against the gospel for many years to come, because it is christianity that will be held responsible for this action, not one guy." This is what I addressed. If you want me to follow along with you Pete could you please follow along with the context of my post?

In a leadership class I once attended, the object lesson that was used was that as leaders, we have 2 buckets; one contains gasoline, and one contains water. We will encounter many fires. We have a choice which bucket to use. It doesn't matter how the fire started.

Ok, and what does this have to do with the right or wrongs of muslims galvanizing themselves against the gospel because of the actions of a few extremist christians?

Actually, I would say it has more to do with this;

1 Peter 4:12-19 (NIV)
Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
​

These verses say it all. We should not be surprised when we suffer and are insulted because of the name of Christ. We should also "continue to do good", because "it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God." That's why I say that regardless of what Muslims may or may not think, we should continue to do good.

Pete, I really don't know where your head is at bringing this up. What does us not needing to be surprised by our sufferings have to do with the comment I made about how since Islam claims to be a peaceful religion that they then should show signs or evidence of peace like not judgeing a whole people according to the actions of a very few?

If Islam is a peaceful religion we should not be afriad or highly concerned about them galvanising themselves against the gospel or us because of the actions of a few misguided christians and their actions.

There is a "double standard" of sorts, as in this case, there should be. But the phrase "double standard" has a lot of negative connotations attached to it. So in this case, it would probably be more accurate to call it a "different" standard.

What?!?!

Again, my interactions with people who profess to be Christians will definitely take on a different standard than those who do not. Why? Because as a body of believers, we're told that we should admonish one another, edify one another, correct one another, hold one another accountable... these are things that I can't do with Muslims, because they are not part of the same body that we are.

I hope you're nopt offended by this but HOGWASH!!! So after the muslim terrorists flew jet airliners into the WTC towers you believe that because they happen to be muslims we as christians are not allowed to admonish the extremist muslims who praised this act and were joyous about it? we can't even tell them that they were wrong in doing so all because they aren't of the same body of believers as we? I really do think you need to either rethink your thoughts on this or get in line with the context of my comments that you are replying to.

Not at all. In fact, I'm almost certain that most Muslims would have no problem differentiating "normal" Christians from the extremists. That still is no reason to pour gas on a raging fire.

Ok, then that comment doesn't apply to you then but the person who I was replying to stated that he was concerned specifically over that and I think my comment may apply to him.

It would be a good question if that's what we thought. But speaking only for myself, I don't think that at all.

Well then only speak for yourself then and don't use the word "we".

I don't believe I was speaking to you in the first place. I was speaking to the person who is concerned that the actions of this foolish pastor may galvanize some of the muslims against the gospel yet says nothing about the character of the people who would be useing the actions of this pastor as a means to galvanize in the first place or even ackownledges whether they would be right or wrong in doing so. Why not? What is so bad about saying that anyone, whether they are christian or muslim, who would judge a whole religion and or group of people because of the actions of a fringe element of that religion or group of people is wrong in doing so? And why is not the discussion more upon getting people to understand that they shouldn't judge things or others in this sort of way? Why is this sort of thing simply accepted and allowed to happen with no effort to right it?

I got news for you Faulty, anyone who would be useing the actions of the pastor to galvanize support to be against the gospel don't need petty excuses like this to do so but if they do so, and probably will, they should be called out and be told that they are wrong in doing so and anyone who listens to them needs to know that those people are wrong. And contrary to Pete's opinion, just because we are christians doesn't mean that we can't or that we shouldn't. Wherever wrongs are being committed the people of God should speak up and never be silent.

 

[Questioning Christian]

How can people, on the one hand, say that the acts of a few "extremist Muslims" do not constitute the whole Muslim religion [to defend the Ground Zero mosque], yet on the other hand, they try to use the actions of one pastor to say "people will mistrust all Christians"?

EITHER one Muslim and one Christian represent their whole religion, OR nobody represents their whole religion.

This double standard is outrageous.

If we can all be judged by the actions of Terry Jones, then all Muslims can be judged by the 9/11 terrorists.

 

[nephilimiyr]

How can people, on the one hand, say that the acts of a few "extremist Muslims" do not constitute the whole Muslim religion [to defend the Ground Zero mosque], yet on the other hand, they try to use the actions of one pastor to say "people will mistrust all Christians"?

EITHER one Muslim and one Christian represent their whole religion, OR nobody represents their whole religion.

This double standard is outrageous.

If we can all be judged by the actions of Terry Jones, then all Muslims can be judged by the 9/11 terrorists.

Exactly QC, and the answer is if it's wrong for one group of people to do so it's just as wrong for any other group as well. It's wrong to do so period and all those people need to know that they are wrong in doing so.

 

[Questioning Christian]

These Muslims are getting angry, but it has nothing to do with us and our actions, as evidenced by us being attacked on 9/11 when those people in New York were doing nothing but going to work.

It's like when the press and parents tried to blame Columbine on the students who picked on Eric Harris and Dylan Kliebold. There were a LOT of students getting picked on in school, as has happened from the dawn of civilization, who never went on a rampage to kill a bunch of people.

The violence living inside an angry person has to do with them, not with their "oppressors". The problem is not everybody AROUND them, but the death-dealing person INSIDE them.

If you're going to blame America for 9/11, the Achille Lauro, Pan Am flight 103, the Beirut Marine base bombing in 1983, the 1979 US embassy takeover by Ahmedinijad which lasted 444 days, and other acts of anti-American violence...

you might as well blame Ted Bundy's victims for being too pretty to live.

Those events were NOT our fault. I wish people would quit saying it.

A murderer is a murderer is a murderer. They will kill for any reason or for no reason at all.

Plain and simple - there is something evil living on the inside of them, having nothing to do with external factors.

They are the vicious vipers, lying in wait in the grasses of history, poised and poisonous, coiled to strike at anything that moves.

I'm tired of us blaming America and American influence for this violence.

It is NOT our strength that causes this violence.

It is our weakness.

It is our inability to stand up to these terrorists and let them know we mean business. If we would really put our foot down, and show the Middle East that we are not to be messed with, it would put the fear of God into them. It is because we have negotiated with terrorists, played footsie with dictators under the tables of the UN, given foreign aid and government sanction to state sponsors of terror, and basically rolled over and shown our underbellies.

We should not be afraid of these people.

We should let them know we are serious.

If we do, many of these plans or attacks would have been deterred.

We are too much like Chamberlain and too little like Churchill.

WEAKNESS emboldens the enemy, as it did in post-World War I Europe when Hitler was beginning to rise to power. The world leaders were too busy trying to make deals with the guy, and failed to see that it was the exercise of strength, not Defeatist Diplomacy, which would crush Hitler.

Diplomacy only works with diplomatic leaders. Sanity only speaks to the sane, sense to the sensible.

But when you are dealing with barbarians, you have to apply the law of the jungle.

In the jungle, there's a reason that the lion is the king.

Animals will not just walk up to him and mess with him.

They will get the business end of some awful and awesome four-inch claws and razor-sharp teeth.

Genesis 16:12 - God said it.

"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him."

It's time to stand up and quit beating around the bush.

This is a serious fight.

And if we don't get that, we will make the same mistakes Clinton and Bush made which led to the events of September 11, 2001.

And then we can only hope and pray that we do not reap the awful harvest of those seeds sown - for they cast a long and formidable shadow.