Church plans to have a Qu'ran burning on 9/11/10

Simon_Templar

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Burning the Quran is foolish and a waste of time and effort. It will accomplish nothing positive and bring no glory to the name of Christ.

Instead it will give ammunition to paint Christians as morons and bigots.

While I have no problem being painted as a moron and a bigot for beliefs or actions that are actually worth while or have some basis in sound teaching/doctrine etc... having a day dedicated to burning the quran is not in that catagory.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Stop being ignorant people. It is NOT a mosque that they are trying to build, it is a community center. And it is on a spot that they ALLREADY run a communty center. 6 months ago this plan had nothing but support and no one cared. Then the dishonest right wing decided to try to make some political traction on this issue.



All this means is that people weren't aware of it 6 months ago. Its amazing how no one protests something when no one knows about it. The proposed community center includes a prayer center (ie a mosque).

This is an issue that people have every right to be upset about. The fact that some people think only bigots would be upset by this is simply evidence of how completely out of touch with reality and how totally blind those people have become.
 
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lismore

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It is not permitted by the muslims for Christians to build any churches in Saudi Arabia.

I think that's a double standard.

While they are persecuting our brothers and sisters in these Arabian countries, we should not allow the building of mosques in the West.

No No No

Not one

When we can build a Cathedral in Mecca then they can build their mosques here.

They're the real bigots. Having the affrontery to build mosques here while murdering Christians in their countries..........
 
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It is in fact a mosque.

When Daisy Khan [the owner's wife] is questioned about it by the female reporter, it is called a mosque on several occasions throughout this interview, and Ms. Khan does not correct the use of the word "mosque".

Second, begin listening at 6:30 of this video. Daisy says that the reason to move to Ground Zero is that "our current mosque was only 12 blocks from Ground Zero", which would mean that when she refers to the "current mosque", that the new building she's scoping is going to be a mosque as well.


So she didnt crt one perosn with one interviwe so what. sarah palin is called govner in a lot of intervwes and yet she not does that mean she is a govenver cus she did not say she is not the goveror anymore?

i watched both sides to this. Perosnaly this sums up what i think.

Finally as promised, a Special Comment tonight on the inaccurately described "Ground Zero mosque."
"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Pastor Martin Niemoller's words are well known but their context is not well understood. Niemoller was not speaking abstractly. He witnessed persecution, he acquiesced to it, he ultimately fell victim to it. He had been a German World War 1 hero, then a conservative who welcomed the fall of German democracy and the rise of Hitler and had few qualms the beginning of the holocaust until he himself was arrested for supporting it insufficiently.
Niemoller's confessional warning came in a speech in Frankfurt in January, 1946, eight months after he was liberated by American troops. He had been detained at Tyrol, Sachsen-hausen and Dachau. For seven years.
Niemoller survived the death camps. In quoting him, I make no direct comparison between the attempts to suppress the building of a Muslim religious center in downtown Manhattan, and the unimaginable nightmare of the Holocaust. Such a comparison is ludicrous. At least it is, now.
But Niemoller was not warning of the Holocaust. He was warning of the willingness of a seemingly rational society to condone the gradual stoking of enmity towards an ethnic or religious group warning of the building-up of a collective pool of national fear and hate, warning of the moment in which the need to purge, outstrips even the perameters of the original scape-goating, when new victims are needed because a country has begun to run on a horrible fuel of hatred — magnified, amplified, multiplied, by politicians and zealots, within government and without.
Niemoller was not warning of the holocaust. He was warning of the thousand steps before a holocaust became inevitable. If we are at just the first of those steps again — today, here — it is one step too close.
Yet, in a country dedicated to freedom, forces have gathered to blow out of all proportion the construction of a minor community center; to transform it into a training ground for terrorists and an insult to the victims of 9/11 and a tribute to medieval Muslim subjugation of the West.
There is no training ground for terrorists. There is no insult to the victims of 9/11. There is no tribute to medieval Muslim subjugation of The West. There is, in fact, no "Ground Zero mosque." It isn't a mosque.
A mosque is a Muslim holy place in which only worship can be conducted. What is planned for 45 Park Place, New York City, is a Community Center. It's supposed to include a basketball court. And a cullinary school. It's to be thirteen stories tall and the top two stories will be a Muslim prayer space.
What a cauldron of terrorism that will be. Terrorist chefs and terrorist point guards. And truly those will use the center have more to fear from us, than us from them. For, there has been terrorism connected to a mosque. In this country. This year.
May 10th. Jacksonville, Florida. A pipe bomb at the Islamic Center of Northeast Florida. The FBI thinks the man in this surveillance video could be the bomber. It went off during evening prayers, and it was powerful enough to send shrapnel flying 100 yards.
Fortunately the bomber didn't know where to place it, so the 60 Muslim worshipers were uninjured. If he'd put it inside and not outside they'd have been dead. And you probably would've heard about it on the news. Or maybe not.
Maybe those exploiting 45 Park Place would still shake their fists and decry terrorism by extremists who happen to be Muslim, and never face the shameful truth about our country: As the Jacksonville mosque bombing shows, since Sept. 11, Muslims have been at far greater risk of being victims of terrorism in the United States, than have non-Muslims.
But back to this Islamic Center. Its name - Cordoba House - is not a tribute to medieval Muslim subjugation of Spain. Newt Gingrich has been pushing that nonsense, that "Cordoba" is a Muslim dog-whistle for "triumphalism." "It refers to Córdoba, Spain - the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world's third-largest mosque complex. Today, some of the mosque's backers insist this term is being used to 'symbolize interfaith co-operation' when, in fact, every Islamist in the world recognizes Córdoba as a symbol of Islamic conquest."


Those "Muslim conquerors" are a figment of Mr. Gingrich's lurid imagination. In Spain, in Cordoba, though the Muslims established multi-cultural, non-denominational institutions of learning, they were under constant attack from Christians, and from a series of internal all-Muslim Civil Wars. The Muslims lost Cordoba, and the Christian church they transformed into the "world's third-largest mosque complex?" It was turned back into a Christian Cathedral. In the 13th Century. And it has been that, ever since.
And is there not a logical extension to Mr. Gingrich's conclusions about Cordoba and "triumphalism?" Virtually every church, every synagogue, indeed every mosque built on this continent stands where a Native American lived, or died, or was buried, or saw his world — his religions included — wiped out. By us.


What are we then, Mr. Gingrich? And by the way, a point Mr. Gingrich has not even whispered as he has shouted fire in a crowded theater—when the historical implications of Cordoba were made clear to the backers of this project, the property developer, Sharif Gamal, changed the name. They already compromised.
"We are calling it Park 51 because of the backlash to the name Cordoba House," he told the Financial Times. "It will be a place open to all New Yorkers and that is a very New York name." A very New York name. Like "Ground Zero." Except this place — Park 51 — is not even at Ground Zero, not even 'right across the street.' Even the description of it being "two blocks away" is generous.
It is two blocks away from the northeast corner of the World Trade Center site. From the planned location of the Setp. 11 memorial it is more like four or even five blocks. You know what is right across the street? I went there yesterday, to refresh my sense of the World Trade Center, in which I worked nearly 30 years ago.
At Church and Veezy, so close that the barbed wire of Ground Zero obscures its spire? St Paul's Chapel. Been there since 1766, where Washington went the day he was inaugurated, where the first responders came for relief nine years ago. You know what's also closer to Ground Zero than this Muslim Community Center? Church of St. Peter — at Church and Barclay Streets. As the sign says, New York's Oldest Catholic Parish.
People hear "Ground Zero Mosque" and they think Mecca in the backyard and a loud call to prayer and they take umbrage.
"We got no more than a few inches of skin and a couple of pieces of bone. Ground Zero is the burial place of my son," said Joyce Boland at the public hearing about the Center. "I don't want to go there and see an overwhelming mosque looking down at me."
I honor her pain, and her fear, but Mrs. Boland has nothing to worry about. Unless she walks directly to it, she'll never see it. This is what you see from where the Center will be. Another non-descript building across the street. This building and others like it will block views of the Trade Center, and views from the Trade Center.
It certainly will stand out on the north side of Park Place, but amid the canyons of lower Manhattan, it'll just be a distinctive building that if you happen to wander down a side street near the Trade Center, you might see. You know what you'll see there now? This. The Burlington Coat Factory, abandoned since 2001 when the landing gear from one of the planes fell 90 stories and went through the roof. For nine years nobody's been willing to buy that building, just to knock it down and build a new one.
It sold for four million 850 thousand dollars. In New York City real estate, that is spare change.
And you know why it's spare change? Because — walk around Ground Zero any day of the week and it's packed, with tourists and our version of pilgrims. But walk two and three blocks away and… not so packed. Not packed at all.


Empty stores. Boarded-up windows. Nine years later, and two and three blocks from the action and it's a ghost town. What was that about government not getting in the way of private business? What was that about letting the private sector spur new jobs in blighted areas? Oh, and what was that about Iraq?
Why did we go into Iraq, again? I don't mean the real reasons or the naked vengeful blindness that enabled the forging of a non-existant connection between Iraq and 9/11. I mean, the official explanation. To free the world — and especially Iraq's citizens — of the tyranny of Saddam Hussein. That's its supporters' defense of the invasion, to this day. Well, who lives in Iraq? Muslims.
I hate to reveal this to anybody on the Right who didn't know this, but when they say Iraq is 65% Shia and 32% Suni you do know that Shia and Suni are both forms of the Muslim religion, right?
We sacrificed 4,415 of our military personnel in Iraq to save Muslims, and there are thousands still there tonight to protect Muslims, but we don't want Muslims to open a combination culinary school and prayer space in Manhattan?
From the beginning of this nation we have fought prejudice and religious intolerance and our greatest enemy: stupidity, exploited by rapacious politicians. It's just 50 years now since Americans publicly and urgently warned their country-men not to support a Presidential candidate because he was a Roman Catholic. He would boww to the will not of the American people, but the Pope. He would be a "Papist." He would be the agent of a foreign state.
His name was John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Despite the nobility of our founding and the indefatigable efforts of all our generations, there have always been those who would happily sacrifice our freedoms, our principles, to ward off the latest unprecedented threat, the latest unbeatable outsiders. Once again, at 45 Park Place, we are being told to sell our birth-right, to feed the maw of xenophobia and vengeance and mob rule.
The terrorists who destroyed the buildings from which you could only see 45 Park Place as a dot on the ground, wanted to force us to change our country to become more like the ones they knew. What better way could we honor the dead of the World Trade Center, than to do the terrorists' heavy lifting for them? And do you think 45 Park Place is where it ends?
The moment this monstrous betrayal of our America gained the slightest traction, the next goal was unveiled. 'No more building permits for any mosques in this country,' brayed a man from the euphemistically-named "American Families Association." Of course, he said, maybe the permits could be granted if the congregation quote "was willing to publicly renounce the Koran."
"They came first for the building permits." But back to Downtown. Does the name "Masjid-Manhattan" mean anything to you? Let me take you, in conclusion, to 20 Warren Street. Not much to look at. Not from across the street Not from up close. That open door is the only thing that distinguishes it from the rest of the grill-fronts of the neighborhood.
That, and the yellow sign there. "Entrance To Islamic Center." It's in the basement. It is a Muslim house of worship. Masjid-Manhattan. It lost its lease in a larger building down the street, two years ago. The new facility is so small that only about 20 percent of worshipers can use it, at a time. But "Masjid-Manhattan" opened in early 1970. Four blocks away, the World Trade Center opened, in December 1970.
The actual place that is the real-life equivalent of the paranoid dream contained in the phrase "Ground Zero Mosque," has been up and running, since before there was a World Trade Center, and for nine years since there has been a World Trade Center.
Running, without controversy, without incident, without terrorism, without protest. Because this is America, [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth].
And in America, when somebody comes for your neighbor, or his bible, or his torah, or his Atheists' Manifesto, or his Koran, you and I do what our fathers did, and our grandmothers did, and our founders did you and speak up.
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SharonL

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It is really getting old that every time we try to protect our country from being destroy - we automatically become raciests and bigots. Getting pretty old - If you were blind and could not see color - and you heard your country being destroyed, would you still be raciest and bigots if you tried to protect it. Thats been used far too long for the liberal left to blame everything, except the right reason and that is we really do have people in this country that wants to see America go down.
 
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Questioning Christian

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So she didnt crt one perosn with one interviwe so what. sarah palin is called govner in a lot of intervwes and yet she not does that mean she is a govenver cus she did not say she is not the goveror anymore?

Daisy Khan called it a mosque herself. She said, "we had to move because we had far too many people at our CURRENT mosque" so that says they are moving into a FUTURE mosque.
 
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gratefulgrace

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Most here agree that burning the Quran is unchristlike and should not happen. I wonder who is motivating this religious group to do such a thing. Could it perhaps be the same god who motivated the bombing of the WTC on Sept 11? (and I don't mean Allah) I mean satan. Pray for those people they are heavily deceived.
 
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Faulty

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Back to the OP. No Christians have no business burning books.
Pray for conversions don't burn books.

I don't know about that. I suppose it would depend on the reasonings for burning the books. Personally I have some books that I would love to get rid of, but just throwing them in the trash risks that someone else could pick them up and read them.

As a result, I the latter situation would be made worse than the first having spread that garbage through improper disposal. So, either I keep the books until I die, and then risk their being read by others at that point, or I'll need to destroy them by some means, with fire being a very real possability.

My concern is that no one else ever gets their hands on these books through any action that I might make. There's nothing stopping them from going to a beekstore of eBay if they want them, but it will not come through me.
 
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probinson

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I wonder if the same people who like taking the unpopular position [defending the Ground Zero mosque] would also enjoy taking the unpopular position of defending the burning of the Qu'ran. I'd like to see where that would lead. :p

I would absolutely defend their right to burn the Qu'ran. I think it's an incredibly horrible witness of what Christianity is supposed to be about to do so, and I would strongly disagree with their decision to do it, but I would still defend their right to do it.

Here's what you seem to not understand; It is quite possible to defend someone's right to do something while disagreeing with them.

:cool:
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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I would absolutely defend their right to burn the Qu'ran. I think it's an incredibly horrible witness of what Christianity is supposed to be about to do so, and I would strongly disagree with their decision to do it, but I would still defend their right to do it.

Here's what you seem to not understand; It is quite possible to defend someone's right to do something while disagreeing with them.

:cool:

I agree. They have the right to burn the books, but I do not think it's the right/beneficial/Godly thing to do. I read on the news this morning that one of the generals in Afghanistan is warning that if this church goes through with the burning they are putting the troops and civilian Americans in danger.
 
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probinson

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I agree. They have the right to burn the books, but I do not think it's the right/beneficial/Godly thing to do.

I agree. I don't think it's the right thing to do it either. I would take it even further than that and say I personally think it's right up there at the top of the list wrong things we could do as Christians. And I would also agree that following through with this will likely put American troops and civilians in greater danger.

However, the question was posed to us who take the position of defending equal rights concerning the construction of the mosque/community center if we would take the same position on this topic. And my answer is absolutely yes.

Whether I agree with something or not does not change whether someone has the right to do it, nor does it change my position on equal rights.

:cool:
 
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probinson

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This should be filed under the 'can't yell fire in a crowded theater' - you have the right to do it, but that does not make it right.

Actually, I don't think you do have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater unless there really is a fire;
Holmes, writing for a unanimous majority, ruled that it was illegal to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I. Holmes argued this abridgment of free speech was permissible because it presented a "clear and present danger" to the government's recruitment efforts for the war. Holmes wrote:
The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.
Holmes wrote of falsely shouting fire, because, of course, if there were a fire in a crowded theater, one may rightly indeed shout "Fire!"; one may, depending on the law in operation, even be obliged to. Falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, i.e. shouting "Fire!" when one believes there to be no fire in order to cause panic, was interpreted not to be protected by the First Amendment.

The First Amendment holding in Schenck was later overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot). The test in Brandenburg is the current High Court jurisprudence on the ability of government to proscribe speech after that fact. Despite Schenck being limited, the phrase "shouting fire in a crowded theater" has since come to be known as synonymous with an action that the speaker believes goes beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, reckless or malicious speech, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious.


Source: Shouting fire in a crowded theater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Given the content of the last paragraph above, I do now wonder if it really would be considered within someone's rights to burn the Qu'ran on 9/11. Given the reasonable likelihood that such an action would result in elevated danger to American troops and civilians at home and abroad, and given that such an action may indeed be shown to result in "imminent lawless action", one could definitely make a reasonable case that because burning the Qu'ran would result in imminent danger to our troops and civilians, that such an action goes beyond the realm of "free speech".

This is why I'm glad I'm not a lawyer. ;)

:cool:
 
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disciple-ofjesus

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Like building a mosque on the still smoking ruins of the world trade centre

exactly. I don't see any harm in doing it. Hey, they can build a mosque, we can burn books. that freedom of speech, religion etc...I don't have a problem with it.






























/end sarcasm/
 
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